Brookfield pay for Ryanair cadets?
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quote: "In reality the Brookfield deal is not that great"
I have calculated the net profit for a cadet entering RYR on the self funded type rating, used 800 hrs x year has an avg, €15000 gross income during line training, the latest paydeals on both RYR contracts and brookfield & 2007-08 income tax in IRELAND and the UK.
1. net income after 20 months from base training assuming 3months on the training contract and then a RYR contract based in STANSTED: €58809,96
2. net income after 20 months from base training assuming 3months on training contract and then a BROOKFIELD contract based in DUBLIN: €72866.27
difference between the two: €14056.31
I know some of you may not be coming from the cadet scheme but I am and having a €30000 loan to pay off, brookfield seems to be a much better deal.
If there's anything I'm missing of why Brookfield is not a better deal please
explain me why...
Alex.
I have calculated the net profit for a cadet entering RYR on the self funded type rating, used 800 hrs x year has an avg, €15000 gross income during line training, the latest paydeals on both RYR contracts and brookfield & 2007-08 income tax in IRELAND and the UK.
1. net income after 20 months from base training assuming 3months on the training contract and then a RYR contract based in STANSTED: €58809,96
2. net income after 20 months from base training assuming 3months on training contract and then a BROOKFIELD contract based in DUBLIN: €72866.27
difference between the two: €14056.31
I know some of you may not be coming from the cadet scheme but I am and having a €30000 loan to pay off, brookfield seems to be a much better deal.
If there's anything I'm missing of why Brookfield is not a better deal please
explain me why...
Alex.
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Alex,how many euros per hr did you calculate you're brk income with?
As far as i know there is 3 different payscale depending on how many hrs Jar25 you have when you start.
<500=55,50euro psbh
500-1500=75,50euro psbh
>1500=80,50euro psbh
(i've taken 4,50e for the sim)
As far as i know there is 3 different payscale depending on how many hrs Jar25 you have when you start.
<500=55,50euro psbh
500-1500=75,50euro psbh
>1500=80,50euro psbh
(i've taken 4,50e for the sim)
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Best to throw up your detailed calcs so people knowledgeable of Irish taxes can opine. Also why do it over 20 months? If you want to compare apples with apples then do it over 12 months and that will give you a better idea of the competitiveness of FR's pay to other operators using say PPJN for arguments sake as a guide.
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Just to keep things simple
Over 12 months
Brookfield
800 hours x €80.5 pbh = €64,400
Permanent Employee
Basic Salary €38,000 Sector Pay Taxed Equivalent €36,000 = €74,000
the above FR sector is based on doing 600 hours.
This is how I've worked it out, and for me to be better off on a Brookfield Contract I'd need to work the 900 hours max and become a tax evader.
Both of the above will decrease over time due to inflation, and the never ending dirty tricks by the high pay airline. It might seem like good money to a school leaver, but by the time school is a fond memory, you'll be on less than the above.
In five years time it'll still be 80.5 an hour, and if the industry slumps at all, kiss goodbye to any pay review.
Can only suggest you appeal to become permanent.
It's better to be part of the solution ...............................
Over 12 months
Brookfield
800 hours x €80.5 pbh = €64,400
Permanent Employee
Basic Salary €38,000 Sector Pay Taxed Equivalent €36,000 = €74,000
the above FR sector is based on doing 600 hours.
This is how I've worked it out, and for me to be better off on a Brookfield Contract I'd need to work the 900 hours max and become a tax evader.
Both of the above will decrease over time due to inflation, and the never ending dirty tricks by the high pay airline. It might seem like good money to a school leaver, but by the time school is a fond memory, you'll be on less than the above.
In five years time it'll still be 80.5 an hour, and if the industry slumps at all, kiss goodbye to any pay review.
Can only suggest you appeal to become permanent.
It's better to be part of the solution ...............................
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To vector3:
To calculate the brookfield part here's what I did:
Used an avg of 800 hrs a year.
With this in mind I used for the first 3 months, a gross salary of €15000 for the line training.
After the LPC we jump to €55,50 per hour since <500hrs... time period on this salary around 6.5 months (using the 800hrs a year)...
Then as soon as 500 hrs are reached but with less than 1500hrs we pass on €65,50 an hour and so on...
I used 20 months so that I wouldn't get into a senior first officer pay scale, since after 20 months one should be just below 1500hrs.
For the Brookfield taxation, I averaged what was made the first year, and applied IRISH taxes, and then for the next 8 months and applied taxes over that period of time.
For the RYR contracts, I used what is written on ppjn.com regarding increase of pay scale and sector pay. In this case I applied UK taxation. Same concept as above.
If anyone wants the excel program I made I would be more than happy to send it.
Alex.
To calculate the brookfield part here's what I did:
Used an avg of 800 hrs a year.
With this in mind I used for the first 3 months, a gross salary of €15000 for the line training.
After the LPC we jump to €55,50 per hour since <500hrs... time period on this salary around 6.5 months (using the 800hrs a year)...
Then as soon as 500 hrs are reached but with less than 1500hrs we pass on €65,50 an hour and so on...
I used 20 months so that I wouldn't get into a senior first officer pay scale, since after 20 months one should be just below 1500hrs.
For the Brookfield taxation, I averaged what was made the first year, and applied IRISH taxes, and then for the next 8 months and applied taxes over that period of time.
For the RYR contracts, I used what is written on ppjn.com regarding increase of pay scale and sector pay. In this case I applied UK taxation. Same concept as above.
If anyone wants the excel program I made I would be more than happy to send it.
Alex.
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for easymoney: I don't know how you are making €36000 a year out of sector pay when the avg for a captain in stansted is around £1400 a month which works out to be €25000 a year... in any case...
we are obviously talking about two different situations, you on one hand, are a qualified first officer I, on the other, am a low houred cadet entering on the self funded TR. Given my conditions Brookfield is a better deal in terms of money... and if the company wants people like me to go onto a brookfield contract it is quite logical for it to be that way.
for everyone else asking me what taxes I used on the brookfield contract...
I worked out how much money I made in a year (using the different pay scales depending on the hours accumulated), then found a tax calculator from the irish gov website.
This is the website:
http://www.hookhead.com/Tools/tax2007.jsp
the calculation I have made does not take into account certain tax costs you may be able to claim back at the end of the financial year since you are on a self employed contract. Hence the figure is on the negative side, another reason why I still don't understand why it is such a bad economic deal.
Alex.
we are obviously talking about two different situations, you on one hand, are a qualified first officer I, on the other, am a low houred cadet entering on the self funded TR. Given my conditions Brookfield is a better deal in terms of money... and if the company wants people like me to go onto a brookfield contract it is quite logical for it to be that way.
for everyone else asking me what taxes I used on the brookfield contract...
I worked out how much money I made in a year (using the different pay scales depending on the hours accumulated), then found a tax calculator from the irish gov website.
This is the website:
http://www.hookhead.com/Tools/tax2007.jsp
the calculation I have made does not take into account certain tax costs you may be able to claim back at the end of the financial year since you are on a self employed contract. Hence the figure is on the negative side, another reason why I still don't understand why it is such a bad economic deal.
Alex.
Last edited by alex111; 19th Jul 2007 at 03:35.
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Easym is correct.Average sectorpay in uk is approx 1600£=2400euros p/month.=28800euros p/y.So when he's making it easy and talking about gross,you have to add the tax on the sectorpay which then comes up to 36000euros.So i think it's not that big difference being on brk or ryr contract.But...the main piont here is the future working for ryr.So i suggest all new cadets to take a look on www.repaweb.org and then will understand why ryr wan't most of the new pilots on brk contract.
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MOL has said many times that he wants a significant percentage of his work force (think it might have been as high as 60% quoted) on contract. Firstly it transfers all of the administration hassles to the contractor (no PAYE/administration etc for FR to worry about). Secondly it means that downsizing can occur at a moments notice without the costs of redundancy nor having to abide by various labour laws. It also makes it much harder for the individual pilots to group together and try to improve their T&C's since their is often a difference between the various contracts in circulation. At Dublin in particular bringing in contractors was a tactical move to get back at the permanent pilots that held MOL over a barrel for their conversion courses from the 200 to the 800. It also served to destabilise their efforts in forming a union.
Whilst the Brookfield contract may appear on the face of it to be reasonable you need to factor in that one day the phone might not go and your services are no longer required. The other benefits that aren't included in your remuneration have been discussed ad nauseum and it really is down to the individual to "price" them into the equation and see if what is offered on the table stacks up.
Whilst the Brookfield contract may appear on the face of it to be reasonable you need to factor in that one day the phone might not go and your services are no longer required. The other benefits that aren't included in your remuneration have been discussed ad nauseum and it really is down to the individual to "price" them into the equation and see if what is offered on the table stacks up.
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Exactly.....the 36k comes from working out the sector which is into the hand, tax paid. And remember this is for working 600 hours.
A much simpler way to look at it. FR want more contractors, therefore you must be getting paid less.
Either way, both the Brookfield and the FR contract is well below par. Go to the yellow pages and phone up a plumber and ask how much he charges per hour.
Suppose there's no point in arguing about who has the greater pay, as most new cadets will not have a choice anyway. They will be forced onto a Brookfield contract and more than likely will be sent to Dub.
Might be a better idea to compare who earns more, an EZY FO or an FR FO.
No prize for getting the right answer here.
And how did EZY achieve far superior conditions......By having a permanent and united pilot workforce. If 40% of EZY pilot's were contractors, well they'd still be in the gutter along with the FR pilots.
A much simpler way to look at it. FR want more contractors, therefore you must be getting paid less.
Either way, both the Brookfield and the FR contract is well below par. Go to the yellow pages and phone up a plumber and ask how much he charges per hour.
Suppose there's no point in arguing about who has the greater pay, as most new cadets will not have a choice anyway. They will be forced onto a Brookfield contract and more than likely will be sent to Dub.
Might be a better idea to compare who earns more, an EZY FO or an FR FO.
No prize for getting the right answer here.
And how did EZY achieve far superior conditions......By having a permanent and united pilot workforce. If 40% of EZY pilot's were contractors, well they'd still be in the gutter along with the FR pilots.
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Does anyone have any idea (and please, responsible answers) of the IAA's attitude to an airline, which is expanding massively, having so many non-employed pilots? Contractors are usually used for short-term tactical demands, seasonal peaks, sudden unforseen pilot shortages. The use of BRK seems to be strategic.
Are there any other examples, in the EU, of such usage on such a large scale %? And what about other industries? Are there comparisons?
Are there any other examples, in the EU, of such usage on such a large scale %? And what about other industries? Are there comparisons?
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The IAA don't care. And that is the responsible answer.
If this was happening across all industries in Europe, there would be social breakdown in short order. Most employees in other industries are not stupid enough to put up with such behaviour, nor are most other pilots. For some reason ryanair pilots are unique in their ability to absorb ****e
If this was happening across all industries in Europe, there would be social breakdown in short order. Most employees in other industries are not stupid enough to put up with such behaviour, nor are most other pilots. For some reason ryanair pilots are unique in their ability to absorb ****e
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yea camel i'm sure that's the answer why ryanair manages to work the way it does, it specifically selects self sadistic pilots that love when pain is inflicted to them, don't wanna get paid much, like to work 4 sectors a day and enjoy being treated like ****e by management... and oh yea, they also love being tied to their beds by their gfs and whipped when they get back home in the evening... wtf.
Don't like to be called stupid... there's probably better reasons why ryanairs workforce hasn't unionised yet... possible reasons:
1. management makes it hard by dealing individually with their pilots or through brookfield
2. a majority of the pilots at the moment are not quite unhappy enough (if unhappy) to go through the trouble of going against the company
ragarding IAA: it is obvious that ryanair has a strong influence on the IAA (and not only), and what exactly has this got to do with anything? according to the IAA's website its mission statment is:
"The Board and Staff of the Irish Aviation Authority are committed to providing efficient and cost-effective safety regulation of the Irish aviation industry and to providing, on a sound commercial basis, safe, efficient and cost-effective air navigation services, which meet the needs of our customers."
doesn't seem to me that protecting ryanairs pilots is included in the IAA's roles...
the day ryanair is making it's pilots so unhappy that a unionasition will be necessary it will happen. And hopefully soon so we'll get paid more... but I doubt it.
Alex.
Don't like to be called stupid... there's probably better reasons why ryanairs workforce hasn't unionised yet... possible reasons:
1. management makes it hard by dealing individually with their pilots or through brookfield
2. a majority of the pilots at the moment are not quite unhappy enough (if unhappy) to go through the trouble of going against the company
ragarding IAA: it is obvious that ryanair has a strong influence on the IAA (and not only), and what exactly has this got to do with anything? according to the IAA's website its mission statment is:
"The Board and Staff of the Irish Aviation Authority are committed to providing efficient and cost-effective safety regulation of the Irish aviation industry and to providing, on a sound commercial basis, safe, efficient and cost-effective air navigation services, which meet the needs of our customers."
doesn't seem to me that protecting ryanairs pilots is included in the IAA's roles...
the day ryanair is making it's pilots so unhappy that a unionasition will be necessary it will happen. And hopefully soon so we'll get paid more... but I doubt it.
Alex.
Last edited by alex111; 28th Jul 2007 at 07:25.
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Hi Alex
I guess you're new to ryanair, so all is still rosy. You owe it to yourself, and to your new profession, to establish the facts however. Start by joining REPA then IALPA/BALPA as appropriate. If nothing else, think of it as (very cheap) professional insurance. You insure your car, so insuring your profession makes eminent sense.
Anyway, just a few points (you're better off on repaweb if you want to really learn stuff):
I'm afraid this is how it is though. Your pay may seem great to you know, but it's the worst 737 pay in Western Europe. And it won't be getting better without a real union. See what happened at Easy.
If you haven't yet been treated ****e by management, lucky for you, but that day is coming sure as night follows day. Talk to your colleagues. Better than sticking your head in the sand.
This is everything, and why is so obvious I'm not going to go into it.
How can you say that an airline having a strong influence on its supposedly independent safety regulator is ok????
I suggest you refer to the many threads on repaweb to learn just how little protection you have from the IAA.
Not directly. But ensuring that ryr pilots are able to focus on the job without financial, fatigue worries etc is very much with the safety remit of the regulator.
The also do allow for direct undercutting of the pilots by allowing a massive number of connies and validating licences from anywhere in the world. Contract work undermines the T&C's of the entire profession. That's the bottom line. Why do you think MOL loves contractors? If they get paid more than permanent pilots, d'you really think there'd be so many?
Once that doubt it removed across the company, change will happen quicker than you could possibly imagine. Their weapon is doubt, ours is belief. The pilots will win eventually, when depends solely on when we believe we can. See ya on repaweb.
And finally remember, you have but one ally in this profession, it aint the company, it aint the IAA, its your union, so get joining.
I guess you're new to ryanair, so all is still rosy. You owe it to yourself, and to your new profession, to establish the facts however. Start by joining REPA then IALPA/BALPA as appropriate. If nothing else, think of it as (very cheap) professional insurance. You insure your car, so insuring your profession makes eminent sense.
Anyway, just a few points (you're better off on repaweb if you want to really learn stuff):
don't wanna get paid much, like to work 4 sectors a day and enjoy being treated like ****e by management...
If you haven't yet been treated ****e by management, lucky for you, but that day is coming sure as night follows day. Talk to your colleagues. Better than sticking your head in the sand.
it is obvious that ryanair has a strong influence on the IAA (and not only), and what exactly has this got to do with anything?
How can you say that an airline having a strong influence on its supposedly independent safety regulator is ok????
I suggest you refer to the many threads on repaweb to learn just how little protection you have from the IAA.
doesn't seem to me that protecting ryanairs pilots is included in the IAA's roles...
The also do allow for direct undercutting of the pilots by allowing a massive number of connies and validating licences from anywhere in the world. Contract work undermines the T&C's of the entire profession. That's the bottom line. Why do you think MOL loves contractors? If they get paid more than permanent pilots, d'you really think there'd be so many?
And hopefully soon so we'll get paid more... but I doubt it.
And finally remember, you have but one ally in this profession, it aint the company, it aint the IAA, its your union, so get joining.
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Can I suggest that all you contract pilots read the thread regarding tax and easyjet in Germany?
It is also wrong to say that it doesn't matter where you pay tax. You are obliged to pay tax in the country where you derive the majority of your income. Essentially, that means that if you work on a contract for Ryanair or Easyjet and are based in Rome or Bergamo or Hahn or Berlin then you must register with the tax office where you work. It makes no difference if you are English, French or whatever.
Avoiding tax is a fraught and dangerous past-time.
It is also wrong to say that it doesn't matter where you pay tax. You are obliged to pay tax in the country where you derive the majority of your income. Essentially, that means that if you work on a contract for Ryanair or Easyjet and are based in Rome or Bergamo or Hahn or Berlin then you must register with the tax office where you work. It makes no difference if you are English, French or whatever.
Avoiding tax is a fraught and dangerous past-time.
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Wrong.
you pay taxes in the country of residence and if there is no bilateral agreement between the 2 countries, you end up paying again taxes in the country of your employer.
In that situation, there is no other choice than to evade taxes as your primary concern should be the financial heath of your family...
If there is a bilateral agreement, you only pay taxes in the country of your employer (for FR, Ireland).
This is one greay area in EU legislation that really hurts pilots and is simply ridiculous. For an airline pilot working abroad, it is often IMPOSSIBLE to be completely legal concerning taxes.
By the way, I paid a very large amount of money for my education, where all other educations in my country are being paid by the government. The exuse of "you knew that before you started" is totally invalid as there is still freedom of education in this part of Europe. That same government does not allow me to even partly claim back this investment by to tax-return. If I would be paying my taxes in my home-country, I would simply be bankrupt.
you pay taxes in the country of residence and if there is no bilateral agreement between the 2 countries, you end up paying again taxes in the country of your employer.
In that situation, there is no other choice than to evade taxes as your primary concern should be the financial heath of your family...
If there is a bilateral agreement, you only pay taxes in the country of your employer (for FR, Ireland).
This is one greay area in EU legislation that really hurts pilots and is simply ridiculous. For an airline pilot working abroad, it is often IMPOSSIBLE to be completely legal concerning taxes.
By the way, I paid a very large amount of money for my education, where all other educations in my country are being paid by the government. The exuse of "you knew that before you started" is totally invalid as there is still freedom of education in this part of Europe. That same government does not allow me to even partly claim back this investment by to tax-return. If I would be paying my taxes in my home-country, I would simply be bankrupt.
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despeque, don't simply write the word 'wrong' simply because you hope I am wrong. Do some research. You will be found out and you will pay the unpaid tax, the penalty and maybe a fine, no matter what you think.
The bilateral agreement means that you will not pay tax in BOTH countries, only in one. The agreement means that the country where you are from/born/previously worked, relinquishes the right to tax you, as you are no longer resident, on the understanding that you pay tax in the country where you now live and work. It most certainly does not mean that you are exempt from paying tax somewhere! No-one is.
It does not state, nor can you interpret it any other way, that if your employer is in one country and you are living and working in another, maybe paid by an agency or even to you as a limited company that you need not pay tax somewhere.
I say again, it is your responsibility to inform the local tax office of your emplyment, wherever you work, wherever your employer is based.
The excuse of ignorance of the law is not a defense. Try it when you get caught in the net. It does not work. Trust me!
The most sensible thing for you and all the others in a similar situation is to get an accountant and register for tax, soon.
I am very touched by your story about how much money you have spent on your education and training, as will be the tax authorities similarly touched. Sorry, you have to pay, just like everyone else. Sympathy doesn't reduce your tax bill though.
As I wrote elsewhere:
There is a very easy way to tell if you are liable for tax.
Ask yourself this simple question; am I happy for the tax authorities in the country where I now live and work to know all about my financial arrangements?
If you answer NO, then you are breaking the law in that country.
It really is that simple.............get real
The bilateral agreement means that you will not pay tax in BOTH countries, only in one. The agreement means that the country where you are from/born/previously worked, relinquishes the right to tax you, as you are no longer resident, on the understanding that you pay tax in the country where you now live and work. It most certainly does not mean that you are exempt from paying tax somewhere! No-one is.
It does not state, nor can you interpret it any other way, that if your employer is in one country and you are living and working in another, maybe paid by an agency or even to you as a limited company that you need not pay tax somewhere.
I say again, it is your responsibility to inform the local tax office of your emplyment, wherever you work, wherever your employer is based.
The excuse of ignorance of the law is not a defense. Try it when you get caught in the net. It does not work. Trust me!
The most sensible thing for you and all the others in a similar situation is to get an accountant and register for tax, soon.
I am very touched by your story about how much money you have spent on your education and training, as will be the tax authorities similarly touched. Sorry, you have to pay, just like everyone else. Sympathy doesn't reduce your tax bill though.
As I wrote elsewhere:
There is a very easy way to tell if you are liable for tax.
Ask yourself this simple question; am I happy for the tax authorities in the country where I now live and work to know all about my financial arrangements?
If you answer NO, then you are breaking the law in that country.
It really is that simple.............get real
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Rubik,
I'll give you a simple situation, encountered by most contractors:
1) you fly for an airline based in Iceland
2) your contract is with an agency based in the UK
3) your Base is Germany, and you live there most of the time.
4) your official residence is Holland, where your wife and children also live and work.
You will find that ALL 4 countries mentionned might want to collect taxes, not just "part" but their complete percentage of your salary.
Do not call me ignorant, I know through experience.
Welcome to Europe.
If the EU wants contractors to pay taxes "comme-il-faut", then THEY should start simplifying the rules and create one rule instead of relying on the various states to decide what to implement. Until then, no contractor should nor will want to pay up in the current conditions.
Am I a rebel, most certainly so, I also refuse to wear a jellow-jacket during daylight
. Maybe another thing that is shocking to some...
I'll give you a simple situation, encountered by most contractors:
1) you fly for an airline based in Iceland
2) your contract is with an agency based in the UK
3) your Base is Germany, and you live there most of the time.
4) your official residence is Holland, where your wife and children also live and work.
You will find that ALL 4 countries mentionned might want to collect taxes, not just "part" but their complete percentage of your salary.
Do not call me ignorant, I know through experience.
Welcome to Europe.
If the EU wants contractors to pay taxes "comme-il-faut", then THEY should start simplifying the rules and create one rule instead of relying on the various states to decide what to implement. Until then, no contractor should nor will want to pay up in the current conditions.
Am I a rebel, most certainly so, I also refuse to wear a jellow-jacket during daylight
. Maybe another thing that is shocking to some...