Moving to UK, any jobs!?
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Moving to UK, any jobs!?
Ok first post here for me, and im just seeking some sensible feedback about my master plan to move to the uk mid-late 2008. I am currently flying in NZ with an ICAO ATPL, and by the time i complete my JAA ATPL subjects and move over i'll have about 4800TT and 1700 PIC turbo prop.
There are many ways to skin a cat, and well here are some of my thoughts on options...feedback most welcome!
Should i just keep plugging away at the turbo prop command time until i move over, or should i persue the opportunity to self fund a 737-800 rating down here and maybe clock 500 odd hours of co-pilot time on type prior to moving? Which, if either would see me in a better position to get considered for a fast track command once moving to the UK? With my current experience would it really matter?
Getting a rating down here is slighty cheaper than in europe. Would having that 500 hours on type speed up the command process in a big way?
It seems from other threads that alot of the first officers terms and conditions with alot of airlines arnt that flash, so i am trying my best to bypass that as quickly as possible! We all have to do our time there though! Out of interest what would the time to command be on average (if there is such a thing) for someone with similar hours to myself and for say a cadet that starts with just the bare minimum?
If i just continue with the turbo prop time here and then come to europe id have to fund a rating with someone like easyjet. Is the 5000 gbp they pay towards your rating for the 5 year period taxed?
I have friends and family in the Glasgow area. How popular is this base with Easy? Is there a normally a waiting list? Out of these bases which ones traditioanlly are easy to get, and which are damn near impossible?
Once i have sat and passed all the ATPL exams, i still face a flight test of some descriptionfor the ATPL. Is it the norm for any airline hiring to make the type rating check flight the ATPL issue flight test also?
Finally, i see Ryanair is always a hot topic on here. One of the large concerns is the fact the first officers dont seem to be employed in some cases for huge amounts of time after completing their ratings. Is this just a case of the company just hiring the most experienced guys in their pool first and leaving some of the least exp guys till last? Or are they just pocketing the money for the rating?
Im setting my sights on the main carriers, but some of the budget carriers with fast command prospects will also be considered. Im guessing if the news about Virgin and the 787 are true they maybe be hiring alot in 3 years or so?!
Well hope you are still awake after reading this small novel. Thanks for the feedback in advance!
There are many ways to skin a cat, and well here are some of my thoughts on options...feedback most welcome!
Should i just keep plugging away at the turbo prop command time until i move over, or should i persue the opportunity to self fund a 737-800 rating down here and maybe clock 500 odd hours of co-pilot time on type prior to moving? Which, if either would see me in a better position to get considered for a fast track command once moving to the UK? With my current experience would it really matter?
Getting a rating down here is slighty cheaper than in europe. Would having that 500 hours on type speed up the command process in a big way?
It seems from other threads that alot of the first officers terms and conditions with alot of airlines arnt that flash, so i am trying my best to bypass that as quickly as possible! We all have to do our time there though! Out of interest what would the time to command be on average (if there is such a thing) for someone with similar hours to myself and for say a cadet that starts with just the bare minimum?
If i just continue with the turbo prop time here and then come to europe id have to fund a rating with someone like easyjet. Is the 5000 gbp they pay towards your rating for the 5 year period taxed?
I have friends and family in the Glasgow area. How popular is this base with Easy? Is there a normally a waiting list? Out of these bases which ones traditioanlly are easy to get, and which are damn near impossible?
Once i have sat and passed all the ATPL exams, i still face a flight test of some descriptionfor the ATPL. Is it the norm for any airline hiring to make the type rating check flight the ATPL issue flight test also?
Finally, i see Ryanair is always a hot topic on here. One of the large concerns is the fact the first officers dont seem to be employed in some cases for huge amounts of time after completing their ratings. Is this just a case of the company just hiring the most experienced guys in their pool first and leaving some of the least exp guys till last? Or are they just pocketing the money for the rating?
Im setting my sights on the main carriers, but some of the budget carriers with fast command prospects will also be considered. Im guessing if the news about Virgin and the 787 are true they maybe be hiring alot in 3 years or so?!
Well hope you are still awake after reading this small novel. Thanks for the feedback in advance!
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Surf)
Hi
I take it you are flying in a 2 crew operation in NZ? You need multi crew hours for a JAR ATPL. Is the turboprop a transport or commuter catagory (JAR/FAR 23/25) ie Dash 8/ATR? If so,you require 1500 on type.After your 14 exams,locate a sim or a/c and do the skill test. Otherwise the following applies:
ICAO to JAR ATPL; see LASORS G1.5 for the requirements. You need to do a FULL type rating course and have an observed flight test.ATPL exams and medical. (Plan on about GBP 20K for 737/A320 incl base training). MCC course and medical..
Otherwise a CPL/IR conversion applies
No point in a 737 rating in NZ as it is not JAR approved and will thus be useless unless you have 1500 on type.
Do a search. There is lots on the subject.Esp from Redsnail
Cheers
I take it you are flying in a 2 crew operation in NZ? You need multi crew hours for a JAR ATPL. Is the turboprop a transport or commuter catagory (JAR/FAR 23/25) ie Dash 8/ATR? If so,you require 1500 on type.After your 14 exams,locate a sim or a/c and do the skill test. Otherwise the following applies:
ICAO to JAR ATPL; see LASORS G1.5 for the requirements. You need to do a FULL type rating course and have an observed flight test.ATPL exams and medical. (Plan on about GBP 20K for 737/A320 incl base training). MCC course and medical..
Otherwise a CPL/IR conversion applies
No point in a 737 rating in NZ as it is not JAR approved and will thus be useless unless you have 1500 on type.
Do a search. There is lots on the subject.Esp from Redsnail
Cheers
PPRuNe Handmaiden
If you don't have 500 hours on a multi pilot aircraft (such as a Dash 8, 737 etc) then you'll need to do a full multi pilot endorsement CAA observed LST (lic skills test) to get your JAA ATPL. (eg, JAR 25)
If you have 500 hours on a (eg) 737, either seat, then you just (hahah, just!) need to brush up on what the CAA require and do a CAA observed LPC (Lic prof check) on the 737. If you have 500 hours or more on a Dash 8 but want a 737 rating, then you'll need to do the full JAA 737 rating. etc.
None of the above are cheap....
If you're currently flying a Bandit or Metro (JAR 23) in 2 crew operations then you'll need a letter stating that from your employer and under what regulation you're flying.Eg RPT etc. If you have 500 hours or more multi crew, then the top one applies.
Regarding the airline assisting in your conversion process, I doubt it unless you had exceptional skills that they could use.
However, this is all inclusive of having at least 1500 hours or more. (which you do). I am assuming you have either a visa or a passport.
Jobs? There's plenty at the moment for experienced crews.
There's a lot of biz jet movements too so they're worth a look-in and most don't charge you for the endorsement.
If you have 500 hours on a (eg) 737, either seat, then you just (hahah, just!) need to brush up on what the CAA require and do a CAA observed LPC (Lic prof check) on the 737. If you have 500 hours or more on a Dash 8 but want a 737 rating, then you'll need to do the full JAA 737 rating. etc.
None of the above are cheap....
If you're currently flying a Bandit or Metro (JAR 23) in 2 crew operations then you'll need a letter stating that from your employer and under what regulation you're flying.Eg RPT etc. If you have 500 hours or more multi crew, then the top one applies.
Regarding the airline assisting in your conversion process, I doubt it unless you had exceptional skills that they could use.
However, this is all inclusive of having at least 1500 hours or more. (which you do). I am assuming you have either a visa or a passport.
Jobs? There's plenty at the moment for experienced crews.
There's a lot of biz jet movements too so they're worth a look-in and most don't charge you for the endorsement.
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well technically i am a british citizen, i was just brought up over here, so i dont talk funny like you guys
thanks guys really appreciate your comments.
I am currently flying the Beech 1900d, so that is multi crew far 23 here in nz.
What i was getting at with puchasing a type rating was trying to avoid the intrument training and renewal etc by just doing a skill test in the sim. kinda sounded a little less complex. Anyone know how much a 1900 would cost over there to use for a skill test...gotta try and weigh up all the costs. Ultimatly a job at BA or virgin would be preferable to paying for a jet rating. How long are the boys at these airlines stuck as second officers for these days?
thanks guys really appreciate your comments.
I am currently flying the Beech 1900d, so that is multi crew far 23 here in nz.
What i was getting at with puchasing a type rating was trying to avoid the intrument training and renewal etc by just doing a skill test in the sim. kinda sounded a little less complex. Anyone know how much a 1900 would cost over there to use for a skill test...gotta try and weigh up all the costs. Ultimatly a job at BA or virgin would be preferable to paying for a jet rating. How long are the boys at these airlines stuck as second officers for these days?
Last edited by surf0; 24th Apr 2007 at 22:26.
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mate,
think you may be setting sights a bit high if your hoping for a ba/vs job off the bat! there are no 2nd officer jobs in the uk and i'm not sure that ba or virgin will recruit somebody of the beech to fly jets. do you have any time in anything bigger and how much of your time is single eng/ single pilot ops?
would think your quickest way into a ba/vs is via ryan/easy etc. get some jet time and take the pain of a bond.
if your desperate to get a command here in europe then the quickest way is at a lo-co. your at least 15 years away from one at ba or vs at a guess.
good luck with the exams and good luck getting a job.
think you may be setting sights a bit high if your hoping for a ba/vs job off the bat! there are no 2nd officer jobs in the uk and i'm not sure that ba or virgin will recruit somebody of the beech to fly jets. do you have any time in anything bigger and how much of your time is single eng/ single pilot ops?
would think your quickest way into a ba/vs is via ryan/easy etc. get some jet time and take the pain of a bond.
if your desperate to get a command here in europe then the quickest way is at a lo-co. your at least 15 years away from one at ba or vs at a guess.
good luck with the exams and good luck getting a job.
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Surf0, having a 738 rating and 500h on type would certainly improve your chances of obtaining a job in UK. I suspect you'd save a bucketload of money too - the basic TR will cost around £18,000 here; about NZ$48,000.
BA recruit direct-entry type-rated pilots with 400 hours or more on type. Your TP hours would make you a good prospect. Many other airlines would also look favourably at your experience. Virgin, however, would need a little more 'heavy' jet time - minimum 1500 hours on a 737 or similar, on top of your TP time.
Good luck!
Scroggs
BA recruit direct-entry type-rated pilots with 400 hours or more on type. Your TP hours would make you a good prospect. Many other airlines would also look favourably at your experience. Virgin, however, would need a little more 'heavy' jet time - minimum 1500 hours on a 737 or similar, on top of your TP time.
Good luck!
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You will need a letter from Eagle saying that you needed 2 pilot ops to count the multi crew time.
Im also from NZ, but decided to come over before doing the whole eagle/air nelson thing. Flying turboprop now here and will do that for a couple of years before moving to the bigger things. As everyone else had to get the whole cpl/ir converted, pain in the bum...think you will need to do the same unless you can get around it by your TT, just make sure you read the fine print. I got caught out as my IR expired before I went to do the IR conversion, thats not allowed so I had to fly back to NZ, get it current then come back here to do the 15hr conversion.....
Not sure if you are aware, but im pretty sure if you dont have 500hrs on type a 73 rating from aussie or NZ would count for nothing as it aint JAA. Out of interest would you be getting the 500hrs on 737 in pacific blue or somewhere like that?
I imagine if you had had 500hrs on 737 you would have a chance with BA, just a guess tho. Deff would with easy and the load of charter operators.
Good luck with whatever you decide
Im also from NZ, but decided to come over before doing the whole eagle/air nelson thing. Flying turboprop now here and will do that for a couple of years before moving to the bigger things. As everyone else had to get the whole cpl/ir converted, pain in the bum...think you will need to do the same unless you can get around it by your TT, just make sure you read the fine print. I got caught out as my IR expired before I went to do the IR conversion, thats not allowed so I had to fly back to NZ, get it current then come back here to do the 15hr conversion.....
Not sure if you are aware, but im pretty sure if you dont have 500hrs on type a 73 rating from aussie or NZ would count for nothing as it aint JAA. Out of interest would you be getting the 500hrs on 737 in pacific blue or somewhere like that?
I imagine if you had had 500hrs on 737 you would have a chance with BA, just a guess tho. Deff would with easy and the load of charter operators.
Good luck with whatever you decide
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hey thanks all who posted so far. its great to receive so much positive feed back. im still learning what hoops i have to leap through.....
couple more questions...
1. is the normal progression to long haul type flying in europe via doing short haul jet first rather than say starting as a second officer on a heavy after flying a turbo prop?
2. if i took the plunge and did a 738 rating down here in NZ and got say 1000 hours up on type and then went to easyjet and they had a job on the airbus, i assume id have to fork out again for a rating(via the bonding process)?
3. any other kiwis out there want to share their experiences please feel free to msg me!
couple more questions...
1. is the normal progression to long haul type flying in europe via doing short haul jet first rather than say starting as a second officer on a heavy after flying a turbo prop?
2. if i took the plunge and did a 738 rating down here in NZ and got say 1000 hours up on type and then went to easyjet and they had a job on the airbus, i assume id have to fork out again for a rating(via the bonding process)?
3. any other kiwis out there want to share their experiences please feel free to msg me!
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oh and at the risk of sounding like a bit of a thickie ill just kinda repeat myself here a little.
If i rock up to the uk with well over 1500 hours multi crew and well over 500 hours on type (738) would a prospective employer supply the sim for the skills test at a good rate - or even free! failing that, how easy would it be to pay for some time in the sim and sit the skills test in my own time at my own expense? any clues what i might have to pay for such a service?
if i just get the subjects and and dont sit the skills test - what does that leave me with? do i get issued a cpl?(wishful thinking) or am i essentially a nothing till i do the skills test? then i instantly become an atpl?
If i rock up to the uk with well over 1500 hours multi crew and well over 500 hours on type (738) would a prospective employer supply the sim for the skills test at a good rate - or even free! failing that, how easy would it be to pay for some time in the sim and sit the skills test in my own time at my own expense? any clues what i might have to pay for such a service?
if i just get the subjects and and dont sit the skills test - what does that leave me with? do i get issued a cpl?(wishful thinking) or am i essentially a nothing till i do the skills test? then i instantly become an atpl?
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surf0,
I came over to the UK around 7 years ago and had to do the full conversion as I didn't have the 500 hours multi-pilot. No operator will even go near you until you have the JAR CPL / ATPL in your hand. So your only option will be to hire a simulator yourself and have a CAA approved examiner do the test, to be honest I have absolutely no idea how you would go about arranging that. We do corporate visits on our 737/a320 sims at work and that sets people back by approx £1500 per hour per seat so unless you have a partner you will end up paying more than that, you would need some training hours as well. I suspect it may actually be cheaper at the end of the day to do the traditional conversion of groundschool subjects, cpl then ir. Jet hours in your logbook obviously will not harm your applications to airlines over here but are not essential. I did the conversion for a basic CPL/IR and my first job was flying Dash8's which I did for a couple of years and then went straight onto jets with BA which is where I still am. There is no doubt that the opportunities do exist here and with your hours you will be competitive for all turboprop operators, most of the low costs but you may have to wait a year or two for the likes of BA. It is a hard slog but worth it in the end, to answer another question, second officers don't really exist here. At BA you join as an FO, shorthaul takes you all over europe / russia / north africa and longhaul everywhere else.
I came over to the UK around 7 years ago and had to do the full conversion as I didn't have the 500 hours multi-pilot. No operator will even go near you until you have the JAR CPL / ATPL in your hand. So your only option will be to hire a simulator yourself and have a CAA approved examiner do the test, to be honest I have absolutely no idea how you would go about arranging that. We do corporate visits on our 737/a320 sims at work and that sets people back by approx £1500 per hour per seat so unless you have a partner you will end up paying more than that, you would need some training hours as well. I suspect it may actually be cheaper at the end of the day to do the traditional conversion of groundschool subjects, cpl then ir. Jet hours in your logbook obviously will not harm your applications to airlines over here but are not essential. I did the conversion for a basic CPL/IR and my first job was flying Dash8's which I did for a couple of years and then went straight onto jets with BA which is where I still am. There is no doubt that the opportunities do exist here and with your hours you will be competitive for all turboprop operators, most of the low costs but you may have to wait a year or two for the likes of BA. It is a hard slog but worth it in the end, to answer another question, second officers don't really exist here. At BA you join as an FO, shorthaul takes you all over europe / russia / north africa and longhaul everywhere else.
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Not as straightforward as you might think ......
A minor spanner in your works, perhaps: you Antipodean types may not yet be aware but there is every possibility that by the time you would like to come, His Royal Highness, Field Marshal Lord Antony B Liar, President of this beknighted island, will have introduced a points-based qualifying system for immigration. Just like you buggers already have, in fact. I doubt a pilot would qualify.
Now, I'm not in the 'pinching our jobs' school, but it ought to be an equitable arrangement: either there should be a free flow of people in both directions around the Commonwealth and former dependencies, or it should be evenly regulated for all. Can't have it both ways, my old Kiwi.
Now, I'm not in the 'pinching our jobs' school, but it ought to be an equitable arrangement: either there should be a free flow of people in both directions around the Commonwealth and former dependencies, or it should be evenly regulated for all. Can't have it both ways, my old Kiwi.
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Fokker, he is (or is entitled to be) a British citizen. No immigration restrictions can or will apply.
Surf0, the process of converting toa JAA licence is covered here. I suggest you talk to a 737 TRTO over here to get quotes on either obtaining a TR from scratch or converting an NZ TR. It may well prove cheaper to do the lot here. As for expecting an airline to pay for the conversion for you, dream on! Despite the healthy market for pilots, there are no shortages appearing at the bottom of the market - where you would start. Your experience would put you ahead of the pack, but wouldn't buy you any special treatment.
Scroggs
Surf0, the process of converting toa JAA licence is covered here. I suggest you talk to a 737 TRTO over here to get quotes on either obtaining a TR from scratch or converting an NZ TR. It may well prove cheaper to do the lot here. As for expecting an airline to pay for the conversion for you, dream on! Despite the healthy market for pilots, there are no shortages appearing at the bottom of the market - where you would start. Your experience would put you ahead of the pack, but wouldn't buy you any special treatment.
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atpl
SURFO , in a similar position to you in having to do the 14 atpl exams for the conversion.One thing I found out very recently I have to do my intial CAA class one medical in LGW before I can officially sign up for any atpl ground school.So that means travelling to the UK to do the medical before the actual commencement of the Distance ATPL.You might want to take this into account.Good luck right now it seems like a mountain to climb for me!
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ok thats a new one on me. I see at 302 pounds its not cheap either! is this just the initial grant fee. what does it cost to renew your jaa medical each year once you have one?
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surf0,
The simple facts are that it can be done....but you need to get all your ducks in a row.
I did it the JAR license and exam thingi (from a NZ CPL)in 2000-01 with 1500hrs TT and got a TP job straight from the get go.
I would strongly advise you to heed Reddo, AH, and Scroggs in what they've got to say.
In my experience the medical is a bit of a non-issue i.e. if you hold a NZ class 1, you should have no problems gaining a JAR class 1..as long as you don't have extenuating circumstances.
As far as your employability, well right now you have ZERO prospects...that is until you have the license in hand that is recognized. After that, all bets are off, the world can be your oyster etc etc.....
One last thing, understand that flying a B1900 in NZ is a totally different kettle of fish to flying in Europe, I'm not saying its any harder, but it is very very different to the experience that I suspect you have.
You will also find the company culture of many operators here rather different to what you currently experience in a Link operator...its difficult to explain, but you will get the idea if you come here.
Cheers H
P.S. depends on who you visit...between £100 and £150 more if you have an EKG etc..
The simple facts are that it can be done....but you need to get all your ducks in a row.
I did it the JAR license and exam thingi (from a NZ CPL)in 2000-01 with 1500hrs TT and got a TP job straight from the get go.
I would strongly advise you to heed Reddo, AH, and Scroggs in what they've got to say.
In my experience the medical is a bit of a non-issue i.e. if you hold a NZ class 1, you should have no problems gaining a JAR class 1..as long as you don't have extenuating circumstances.
As far as your employability, well right now you have ZERO prospects...that is until you have the license in hand that is recognized. After that, all bets are off, the world can be your oyster etc etc.....
One last thing, understand that flying a B1900 in NZ is a totally different kettle of fish to flying in Europe, I'm not saying its any harder, but it is very very different to the experience that I suspect you have.
You will also find the company culture of many operators here rather different to what you currently experience in a Link operator...its difficult to explain, but you will get the idea if you come here.
Cheers H
P.S. depends on who you visit...between £100 and £150 more if you have an EKG etc..
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ok so lets say i just hang fire and keep flying the 'ol 1900 down here until i complete my subjects and move up. searching the forums there is some contradictory info about what happens next...
i see if i get a letter stating that the flying was 2 pilot ops then i get the mcc credit dispensing the requirment for all the ground course palaver.
heres the confusing bit though. when it comes to sitting the skills test, because the b190 isnt jaa 2 pilot can i still sit the skill test in it? or is that not relevant?
its beginning to look like it might just be easier to go via the smaller aircraft route again to get the issue done. do they do atpl issues in light twins like duchess or aztec? what is the multi trainer of choice over there?
oh nelly one question answered opens up a multitude of others!
i see if i get a letter stating that the flying was 2 pilot ops then i get the mcc credit dispensing the requirment for all the ground course palaver.
heres the confusing bit though. when it comes to sitting the skills test, because the b190 isnt jaa 2 pilot can i still sit the skill test in it? or is that not relevant?
its beginning to look like it might just be easier to go via the smaller aircraft route again to get the issue done. do they do atpl issues in light twins like duchess or aztec? what is the multi trainer of choice over there?
oh nelly one question answered opens up a multitude of others!