Message to Ryanair pilots
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I'm sorry if I sound a little slow.
I dont work for FR, and admit I only know the basics of the current T&C's. Apart from the formation on the FR website regarding the new deal, and the snippets on this thread, what else is being offered or taken away? Would somebody mind explaining the deal from the other point of view?
Thanks, and good luck with the vote.
I dont work for FR, and admit I only know the basics of the current T&C's. Apart from the formation on the FR website regarding the new deal, and the snippets on this thread, what else is being offered or taken away? Would somebody mind explaining the deal from the other point of view?
Thanks, and good luck with the vote.
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Update 1 & 2
So sad to see the company using their energy and effort on their newest propaganda. Why not use the energy on trying to make the flightcrew happy instead....
Last edited by POL.777; 27th Mar 2007 at 14:50. Reason: finger troubles
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kuchemann carrots
Essentially ryanair want to get the pilots to agree a 4 year deal to reduce their pay. By agreeing to lock into a 4 year deal, there would be no come back within that timeframe to seek an improvement. This is all aimed at telling the Labour Court that the pilots agreed to the "onerous terms" (words of a High Court judge) at ryanair.
Basically the company want the pilots to agree to a sharp reduction in sector and accept basic salary increases that fall far short of any inflationary level ever recorded in the western world. The net effect is a substantial pay reduction, both from day 1 and over the lifetime of the deal. Other nuggets include reducing annual leave below the legal minimum (avoiding legal problems by naming days off as "annual leave").
The stuff on the ryanair website is a total fabrication. 20% pay rises have never been mentioned by the management at any propaganda meeting with the pilots. In fact, it was admitted by more than one management figure that the deal was in fact a pay reduction. They also admitted that there are "no guarantees".
Even if it was an actual, as opposed to fabricated, pay rise, ryanair have never ever honoured any pay agreement made with the pilots. This one will be no different, as there is no independent oversight. They could offer 500k basic to every pilot in the company but it would be totally meaningless as they NEVER EVER honour agreements, this can't be stated strongly enough.
They had a 5 year agreement from 2000 but that was ripped up in 2004. They had a 5 year agreement with LTN pilots from last year, which was ripped up this year. The list goes on. They are not to be trusted one inch.
A yes vote will be meaningless as they will simply renege on it in the near future. History has proven exactly that course of events.
The options are simple for ryanair pilots:
1) Reject deal: accept an immediate 2% pay rise, sector pay stays same, the Labour Court/RPA and BALPA option remains very much on the table and it will succeed (MOL himself said so in Dublin recently)*
2) Accept deal: accept a much lower take home due to sharply reduced sector pay. Watch inflation erode your basic. Watch ryanair arbitrarily further reduce your pay in the future (remember, they have ALWAYS done this). Close off your chance for a fair, equitable and legally enforced deal.
So lets recap in very simple terms:
Reject deal: your income increases slightly now and very substantially post-Labour Court.
Accept deal: you income reduces now and for the rest of your career.
FINALLY, GET OUT AND VOTE. ABSTENTION IS NOT A VOTE AGAINST. EVERY NO VOTE INCREASES YOUR STRENGTH AND IMPROVES YOUR PROSPECTS.
* - This is why they are so desperate for the 4 year deal as they have admitted they are gonna lose badly when we go to court and have BALPA in.
Essentially ryanair want to get the pilots to agree a 4 year deal to reduce their pay. By agreeing to lock into a 4 year deal, there would be no come back within that timeframe to seek an improvement. This is all aimed at telling the Labour Court that the pilots agreed to the "onerous terms" (words of a High Court judge) at ryanair.
Basically the company want the pilots to agree to a sharp reduction in sector and accept basic salary increases that fall far short of any inflationary level ever recorded in the western world. The net effect is a substantial pay reduction, both from day 1 and over the lifetime of the deal. Other nuggets include reducing annual leave below the legal minimum (avoiding legal problems by naming days off as "annual leave").
The stuff on the ryanair website is a total fabrication. 20% pay rises have never been mentioned by the management at any propaganda meeting with the pilots. In fact, it was admitted by more than one management figure that the deal was in fact a pay reduction. They also admitted that there are "no guarantees".
Even if it was an actual, as opposed to fabricated, pay rise, ryanair have never ever honoured any pay agreement made with the pilots. This one will be no different, as there is no independent oversight. They could offer 500k basic to every pilot in the company but it would be totally meaningless as they NEVER EVER honour agreements, this can't be stated strongly enough.
They had a 5 year agreement from 2000 but that was ripped up in 2004. They had a 5 year agreement with LTN pilots from last year, which was ripped up this year. The list goes on. They are not to be trusted one inch.
A yes vote will be meaningless as they will simply renege on it in the near future. History has proven exactly that course of events.
The options are simple for ryanair pilots:
1) Reject deal: accept an immediate 2% pay rise, sector pay stays same, the Labour Court/RPA and BALPA option remains very much on the table and it will succeed (MOL himself said so in Dublin recently)*
2) Accept deal: accept a much lower take home due to sharply reduced sector pay. Watch inflation erode your basic. Watch ryanair arbitrarily further reduce your pay in the future (remember, they have ALWAYS done this). Close off your chance for a fair, equitable and legally enforced deal.
So lets recap in very simple terms:
Reject deal: your income increases slightly now and very substantially post-Labour Court.
Accept deal: you income reduces now and for the rest of your career.
FINALLY, GET OUT AND VOTE. ABSTENTION IS NOT A VOTE AGAINST. EVERY NO VOTE INCREASES YOUR STRENGTH AND IMPROVES YOUR PROSPECTS.
* - This is why they are so desperate for the 4 year deal as they have admitted they are gonna lose badly when we go to court and have BALPA in.
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CamelhAir,
don't get me wrong, I think you're doing a great job and I too will vote NO tomorrow, but it seems like propaganda is contagious. You, or whoever wrote this text (I think I've seen the exact same wording before recently) seem to have spent too much time reading FR propaganda, and are now falling for the same trap.
As you put it yourself in the same message 2% payrise is less than inflation. You are very quick and correct in claiming the offered payrise is actually a paycut, yet you say rejecting the offer will give a small increase now and a big one post-Labour Court. That's just as wrong according to the same reasoning!! You're just giving fr management more ammo.
This would be a more correct recap:
I can hardly blame you for reading too much ryanair propaganda, since they now reverted to making their nonsense 'compulsory read' items. Can you believe that!!
Regards, Ziggy.
don't get me wrong, I think you're doing a great job and I too will vote NO tomorrow, but it seems like propaganda is contagious. You, or whoever wrote this text (I think I've seen the exact same wording before recently) seem to have spent too much time reading FR propaganda, and are now falling for the same trap.
Reject deal: your income increases slightly now and very substantially post-Labour Court.
Accept deal: you income reduces now and for the rest of your career.
Accept deal: you income reduces now and for the rest of your career.
This would be a more correct recap:
Reject deal: your income decreases slightly now and increases very substantially post-Labour Court.
Accept deal: you income reduces now and for the rest of your career.
Accept deal: you income reduces now and for the rest of your career.
Regards, Ziggy.
Last edited by Ziggy; 28th Mar 2007 at 14:48. Reason: typo
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currently studying att one of the two schools that recruit for FR and have been given very positive propoganda about how great it is. Great to hear from actual pilots working there and good luck on the vote!
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Ziggy,
you are correct, I seem to have worded it wrongly (they are my words, but I too recall similar elsewhere). Any suggestion that a 2% increase is, after inflation, anything other than a pay decrease is of course correct.
Your revised assessment of the situation is bang on.
Frankly, I just hope everyone in ryanair realises that
It can't be put more starkly than that, but them's the facts!
you are correct, I seem to have worded it wrongly (they are my words, but I too recall similar elsewhere). Any suggestion that a 2% increase is, after inflation, anything other than a pay decrease is of course correct.
Your revised assessment of the situation is bang on.
Frankly, I just hope everyone in ryanair realises that
Accept deal: you income reduces now and for the rest of your career.
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chack this out.ryanairs anonymous ballot on reduced terms and conditions,has ones name attached to the ballot paper they send you and it must remain attached.
ryanair "the no fair" airline!
ryanair "the no fair" airline!
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Just stumbled across this after accidentally clicking on the banner on here
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/about...arPilotPayDeal
"Ryanair’s New 4 Year Pilot pay deal
Following extensive negotiations across the Ryanair network, Ryanair pilots will this week choose between (a) a four year improved pay and conditions deal and (b) a one year basic pay increase.
OPTION 1
4 year pay and benefits deal including:
Basic pay increases of between 8.23% and 10.38%. PLUS
New annual allowance to cover uniform, medicals, loss of licence, car-parking, health insurance etc - £5,000 / €5,000 p.a. for each pilot PLUS
New pension contributions (matching) – Captains get £5,000 / €5,000, Co-pilots get £2,500 / €2,500) PLUS
A stable, 5-4 roster = 24 more planned days off a year PLUS
Increased training allowances – LTCs get £4,420 / €5,500 increase, TREs get £5,420 / €6,700 increase PLUS
Transparent sector pay system – payment per sched block hr to nearest minute.
Or - OPTION 2
Option 2 – one year pay increase
2% increase in basic pay
There isn’t any YES/NO vote as claimed on Pprune. Pilots will decide whether they want a one year 2% pay increase or a four year deal delivering a 20% plus increase in basic pay / allowances, a 6% increase in sector pay, new allowances, improved rosters (24 more days off each year), increased training pay and more.
Only on Pprune could a 20% increase in pay be called a pay reduction."
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/about...arPilotPayDeal
"Ryanair’s New 4 Year Pilot pay deal
Following extensive negotiations across the Ryanair network, Ryanair pilots will this week choose between (a) a four year improved pay and conditions deal and (b) a one year basic pay increase.
OPTION 1
4 year pay and benefits deal including:
Basic pay increases of between 8.23% and 10.38%. PLUS
New annual allowance to cover uniform, medicals, loss of licence, car-parking, health insurance etc - £5,000 / €5,000 p.a. for each pilot PLUS
New pension contributions (matching) – Captains get £5,000 / €5,000, Co-pilots get £2,500 / €2,500) PLUS
A stable, 5-4 roster = 24 more planned days off a year PLUS
Increased training allowances – LTCs get £4,420 / €5,500 increase, TREs get £5,420 / €6,700 increase PLUS
Transparent sector pay system – payment per sched block hr to nearest minute.
Or - OPTION 2
Option 2 – one year pay increase
2% increase in basic pay
There isn’t any YES/NO vote as claimed on Pprune. Pilots will decide whether they want a one year 2% pay increase or a four year deal delivering a 20% plus increase in basic pay / allowances, a 6% increase in sector pay, new allowances, improved rosters (24 more days off each year), increased training pay and more.
Only on Pprune could a 20% increase in pay be called a pay reduction."
Last edited by tiggerific_69; 29th Mar 2007 at 19:20.
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i just copied & pasted everything from their website.
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tiggerific_69: if you click the link posted in post #39 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...5&postcount=39) then you'll find exactly what you have posted.
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Apologies tiggerific_69, I thought when I first read your post that you had added this last sentence "Only on Pprune could a 20% increase in pay be called a pay reduction" yourself but having looked at it again I realised you hadn't. In my defence it was late (relative to the time I got up that morning anyway) and the end of another long week at the coal face!
Apologies once again.
Shame on me!
Apologies once again.
Shame on me!
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i too am a ryr pilot and irish and am soo ashamed of the behaviour of these people, often asked by my commrades in the flt deck if this is the way all irish buisnesses are run?
i often finding myself having to explain to them that this is most definitely the exception to the rule, as most irish companies operate in the 21st century or 22nd as it has been for the last 7 years.
i could not agree more with the sentiments of my very esteemed commrade CH, his posting is spot on I know as I have been here(imprisioned) for 6 years and have seen first hand how mine and others t&c's have been systematically reduced since my arrival.
anyone who is under the impression that t&c's will improve under this stalinist regime by voting yes has their head up their own ar&e.
i am a balpa member and i hope that most of my commrades are associated with either balpa or ialpa there are some very good people there ready to offer us support but only if we locate our b@lls and grow a back bone.
i am sick of looking at myself in the mirror knowing that i am a part of the malignant cancer that is ryr, i am embarresed to say that i work for these footking c&nts. enough is enough guys.
our actions in the coming months will determine t&c's industry wide.
i often finding myself having to explain to them that this is most definitely the exception to the rule, as most irish companies operate in the 21st century or 22nd as it has been for the last 7 years.
i could not agree more with the sentiments of my very esteemed commrade CH, his posting is spot on I know as I have been here(imprisioned) for 6 years and have seen first hand how mine and others t&c's have been systematically reduced since my arrival.
anyone who is under the impression that t&c's will improve under this stalinist regime by voting yes has their head up their own ar&e.
i am a balpa member and i hope that most of my commrades are associated with either balpa or ialpa there are some very good people there ready to offer us support but only if we locate our b@lls and grow a back bone.
i am sick of looking at myself in the mirror knowing that i am a part of the malignant cancer that is ryr, i am embarresed to say that i work for these footking c&nts. enough is enough guys.
our actions in the coming months will determine t&c's industry wide.
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However you view the 4 year deal, it is a pay cut. the percentage figures quoted in no way make up for the loss in earnings of the Flight Pay. The method of calculation will be radically altered in the 4 year deal to reduce the payments by around £6000 a year.
The allowance they talk of will be taxed and in no way make up for the loss of flight pay.
5 minutes with a calculator shows CPTs will be 5% worse off and FOs around 10%
FR want their pilots to be paid peanuts. Care to join them?
The allowance they talk of will be taxed and in no way make up for the loss of flight pay.
5 minutes with a calculator shows CPTs will be 5% worse off and FOs around 10%
FR want their pilots to be paid peanuts. Care to join them?