EasyJet Offices Raided by French Police
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Sorry BOY u are WRONG! When a french EZY pilot goes to the doctor in france the french social security claims every euro they spent on him back from the UK NHS because the pilot pays NI in the UK. The guy may be lucky to have french health care for UK price but it is the UK paying for the difference and not the french, nor the french taxpayers.
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The UE directives must be introduced in each country law, otherwise countries have to pay penalities It's not a choice or a recommendation but an obligation.
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Hi Flyzen,
In a way, you are right.....and wrong.
Directives must be implemented in member states laws depending on the agreement these states reach in the or a treaty. Rome, Maastricht, Nice, etc...Britain has a discount on its membership fees, if I dare say, France some special deal on agriculture and Malta on foreign workers from EU, for non exhaustive example. Anyway, it takes a looooooooooooong time for a law to be drafted, debated in the parliament and then the senate, then voted, then checked by the supreme court, or equivalent. As long as this hasn't happened there is NOTHING (nor nobody...supposedly!) above the law, but the constitution of that country. My point was: it is not necessarily because some eurosuckers have produced a directive to justify their positions that it automatically supersedes a country's law.
I do not want to argue the propriety of the French police action, nor siding with one or another country's position in a debate. Just keep head cool and wait for the conclusion without judging.
After all, do we, pilots, jump to conclusion to seal the fate of a colleague who pranks a machine or get caught with booze in his blood?
In a way, you are right.....and wrong.
Directives must be implemented in member states laws depending on the agreement these states reach in the or a treaty. Rome, Maastricht, Nice, etc...Britain has a discount on its membership fees, if I dare say, France some special deal on agriculture and Malta on foreign workers from EU, for non exhaustive example. Anyway, it takes a looooooooooooong time for a law to be drafted, debated in the parliament and then the senate, then voted, then checked by the supreme court, or equivalent. As long as this hasn't happened there is NOTHING (nor nobody...supposedly!) above the law, but the constitution of that country. My point was: it is not necessarily because some eurosuckers have produced a directive to justify their positions that it automatically supersedes a country's law.
I do not want to argue the propriety of the French police action, nor siding with one or another country's position in a debate. Just keep head cool and wait for the conclusion without judging.
After all, do we, pilots, jump to conclusion to seal the fate of a colleague who pranks a machine or get caught with booze in his blood?
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Gentlemen, there are NO such thing as a European LAW; The EU commission promulgates DIRECTIVES, a bit like ICAO does with RECOMMENDATIONS. EU countries implement those directives in their own laws.......or not!
All EU countries have kept their autonomy, unlike the CIS republics or the US of A States.
EZ will have one way to get out of the mess they put themselves in, and that is to find evidences that the French law is discriminating them in relation to French airlines. This might take.......your guess years, and in the mean time it will have to abide by the french Law, IF the french judge so decides, which is not yet certain he will.
All EU countries have kept their autonomy, unlike the CIS republics or the US of A States.
EZ will have one way to get out of the mess they put themselves in, and that is to find evidences that the French law is discriminating them in relation to French airlines. This might take.......your guess years, and in the mean time it will have to abide by the french Law, IF the french judge so decides, which is not yet certain he will.
Regards,
CT
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Little confused 
Easy's statement that " As there aircraft are UK registered UK labour legislation applies " can any legal eagle out there shed some light on the foundation of this statement.
Easy's statement that " As there aircraft are UK registered UK labour legislation applies " can any legal eagle out there shed some light on the foundation of this statement.
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Check out the number if EI registered a/c operating in EU. The FTL's are those of the host airline and the employment law of the country where the host airline is registered. Certainly the case in Italy; no doubt others too.
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I'm not a legal eagle but I can say with some confidence that the country of registry has nothing to do with the relevant Labour Law which applies.
Labour Law: In principle (note the caution) the Labour Law is that of the country where the contract of employment is vested.
However, this is a really confused area - for how do you define where a pilot works ... consider:
1. A full-time employee for an airline based in country A, who has been based in country B for, say, 5 years on what the airline will say is a "semi-permanent" temporary basing. (The argument about what Labour Law would apply on this one will keep the lawyers in fees for quite a while. Nominally it is country A, but the authorities - and judiciary - in country B might wish to see things differently).
2. Even better, a contractor working for the airline in country A, who has a contract based in country C, but is working in country B. This one gets really complicated if you throw in the fact that the employee is exclusively responsible for his/her tax and is paid "offshore" notwithstanding that countries A, B & C are all in Europe.
Both types of employment will see court cases in due course. Both types of employment may provide airlines with opportunities to lower costs at the expense of their pilot employees - opportunities which some exploit to the hilt, and others do not.
FTLs: The relevant FTLs are those of the country where the aircraft are registered/the company has its AOC.
Labour Law: In principle (note the caution) the Labour Law is that of the country where the contract of employment is vested.
However, this is a really confused area - for how do you define where a pilot works ... consider:
1. A full-time employee for an airline based in country A, who has been based in country B for, say, 5 years on what the airline will say is a "semi-permanent" temporary basing. (The argument about what Labour Law would apply on this one will keep the lawyers in fees for quite a while. Nominally it is country A, but the authorities - and judiciary - in country B might wish to see things differently).
2. Even better, a contractor working for the airline in country A, who has a contract based in country C, but is working in country B. This one gets really complicated if you throw in the fact that the employee is exclusively responsible for his/her tax and is paid "offshore" notwithstanding that countries A, B & C are all in Europe.
Both types of employment will see court cases in due course. Both types of employment may provide airlines with opportunities to lower costs at the expense of their pilot employees - opportunities which some exploit to the hilt, and others do not.
FTLs: The relevant FTLs are those of the country where the aircraft are registered/the company has its AOC.
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The ORY base is one of the more profitable bases for EZY, hence the company will do everything they can to keep it. They may come to some financial settlement in the end. They have a lot of money behind them and UK government support, don't forget. Anyone know if the French would have authority to ground the aircraft?
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steve you seem especially outraged. You even ask how the authorities got permission to act. Maybe that is a bit like asking who allows the police to arrest people?
You might take a different view if you had a contract drawn up via an employer for the purposes of ensuring you had minimal employement rights in the country where you were employed and little chance of protecting yourself legally.
And as for:
I can only say, "such innocence"!
You might take a different view if you had a contract drawn up via an employer for the purposes of ensuring you had minimal employement rights in the country where you were employed and little chance of protecting yourself legally.
And as for:
What is the difference between a french and british contract anyway? This is europe! nobody gives a c**p!
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I think it worthy of at least a highly raised eyebrow. Can you imagine the British police arriving at the crack of dawn with 20 or so officers, armed, accompanied by various lawyers and civil servants, bursting through a crew room door to impound documents, question crew and take the base manager away for questioning overnight involving a cell?
All because of employee contract laws?
Every staff member in Orly applied for the job and signed an employment contract and is happily being paid via the UK tax office paying normal income tax and national insurance.
So why the heavy mob?
Oh - HANG ON - Air France are starting up a low cost sub-division using Transavia. Just making it awkward for easyJet and Ryanair to operate in France hasn't been enough. Now its time to get downright obstructive. Call for the Gendarmes!
Pathetic, snivelling, protectionist, corrupt and doomed. Should have let the Germans keep the bloody place.
AP
All because of employee contract laws?
Every staff member in Orly applied for the job and signed an employment contract and is happily being paid via the UK tax office paying normal income tax and national insurance.
So why the heavy mob?
Oh - HANG ON - Air France are starting up a low cost sub-division using Transavia. Just making it awkward for easyJet and Ryanair to operate in France hasn't been enough. Now its time to get downright obstructive. Call for the Gendarmes!
Pathetic, snivelling, protectionist, corrupt and doomed. Should have let the Germans keep the bloody place.
AP
Risk Known-legal explanation
When Easy set up this arrangement, it was part of the "vision" of the then top management team. They knew it was a risk. Anywhere in Europe, if you have an "establishment" there, then they can insist that the entity employ you on contracts which are based in the country of establishment. No Company has the right to over-ride National law in this respect. The European agreements on Social Security only allow cross-country deployment for 5 years, with exceptions only allowed in extreme cases. I suspect that infringements of Social Security laws were the excuse for the raids, and that the timing was inspired by AF.
Hope this helps
Hope this helps
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Oh - HANG ON - Air France are starting up a low cost sub-division using Transavia. Just making it awkward for easyJet and Ryanair to operate in France hasn't been enough. Now its time to get downright obstructive. Call for the Gendarmes!
Consider this: within weeks the french have:
- passed a new law making eJ's ORY operation de facto illegal
- announced the creation of transavia.com, with the emphasis clearly put on the fact that the crews will have french contacts.
- raided the eJ office and crew room.
coincidence? Somehow I don't think so...
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AbeamPoints, couldn't agree more. The important point here, the really important point here, is that they chose Easy, and no doubt "coming to an Airport in France soon", Ryanair in MRS.WHAT THEY CONSPICIOUSLY , AND BLATANTLY DID NOT DO, was raid the CDG crewroom of City Jet, which unless I am sadly mistaken does not employ it's crew on French contracts and has been there a lot longer operating crews on permanent detachment in Froggyland. Am I surprised ? Perhaps Easy and Ryanair should volunteer to become Air Chance franchises too, then I guess we would be left alone.
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What a lot of hot air and puffed up outrangousnees. My God, the Empire collapsed decades ago. Surely you have noticed that in places like LTN and EMA the sub-continent is taking over in retaliation. At least the French have resisted the onslaught of non-Frogs. (Tounge in cheek. Please do not open new thread about French riots)
Moving on: There has been much huffing and jealous puffing over the years about the cushy contracts that Air France pilots and other pilots in France enjoyed. Tax breaks and subsidised this & that. Has anyone thought to consider that, or ask, the employees of ej if they would prefer to be on French contracts and under French labour law? If all rumours I have heard are true, I might be sorely tempted. If it is true that French grass is greener then maybe importing continental style labour law into UK would improve many sweat shop life styles that are currently on offer.
Why is the exodus of residents from UK to FR so constant & increasing? 350.000 a year leaving UK; not all to France, but..... Hm??
Moving on: There has been much huffing and jealous puffing over the years about the cushy contracts that Air France pilots and other pilots in France enjoyed. Tax breaks and subsidised this & that. Has anyone thought to consider that, or ask, the employees of ej if they would prefer to be on French contracts and under French labour law? If all rumours I have heard are true, I might be sorely tempted. If it is true that French grass is greener then maybe importing continental style labour law into UK would improve many sweat shop life styles that are currently on offer.
Why is the exodus of residents from UK to FR so constant & increasing? 350.000 a year leaving UK; not all to France, but..... Hm??
Last edited by RAT 5; 22nd Dec 2006 at 03:11.
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It is unfortunate that some pilots because they have ****y contracts would like to drag down their well paid counterpats with them. Jealousy, avarice are killing this industry.
Doing research on behalf of my union a few years ago what we found found contradicts conventional wisdom about pilot's pay in Europe. Do a bit a research before mouthing off about AF. The pilots who have the best - Majors- jobs in Europe do not work for AF.
You may hear about it, maybe because their selection processes are better than others and employ down to earth mature and real pro pilots. This may be interpreted as discrimination or OBN for those who fail to get a toe hold in these carriers. Failure to meet requirements = LCC career (buy your own uniform etc etc etc - You wanna be a pilot, I will allow you to wear my uniform while you starve).
Doing research on behalf of my union a few years ago what we found found contradicts conventional wisdom about pilot's pay in Europe. Do a bit a research before mouthing off about AF. The pilots who have the best - Majors- jobs in Europe do not work for AF.
You may hear about it, maybe because their selection processes are better than others and employ down to earth mature and real pro pilots. This may be interpreted as discrimination or OBN for those who fail to get a toe hold in these carriers. Failure to meet requirements = LCC career (buy your own uniform etc etc etc - You wanna be a pilot, I will allow you to wear my uniform while you starve).
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Originally Posted by fropilot
Failure to meet requirements = LCC career (buy your own uniform etc etc etc - You wanna be a pilot, I will allow you to wear my uniform while you starve).
It is unfortunate that some pilots because they have ****y contracts would like to drag down their well paid counterpats with them. Jealousy, avarice are killing this industry.
Originally Posted by RAT 5
If it is true that French grass is greener then maybe importing continental style labour law into UK would improve many sweat shop life styles that are currently on offer.
Oh, and it's very difficult to join AF, as they recruit mostly cadets and ex military. The tax burden is litteraly outrageous too. Still thinking of crossing the channel?
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Even for PPRuNe this thread seems to be heavily weighed towards strong opinions, xenophobia and minimal facts. I can't say that I have too many facts myself, but the level of "we all know" or "its obvious" is quite telling. It is more telling when we even have, apparently, got a few French nationals attacking their own country but also giving little evidence beyond "believe me, this is the way it is".
An attempt at impartiality might suggest the follow question - and it is only a question. Could it be that as a subsidiary of AF that City Jet was actually in compliance with the law, or at least had not been identified as failing to comply? (The issue is not the pilots' contracts as such.... but then getting that point would require attempting to understand what is actually going on here).
I suppose I am likely to be told that the answer is obvious and that I am a complete nitwit because I don't see the "realities"?
But my realities go along the same line as Fropilot. They suggest to me that there is a lot of guff talked about salaries and conditions in companies like AF.
An attempt at impartiality might suggest the follow question - and it is only a question. Could it be that as a subsidiary of AF that City Jet was actually in compliance with the law, or at least had not been identified as failing to comply? (The issue is not the pilots' contracts as such.... but then getting that point would require attempting to understand what is actually going on here).
I suppose I am likely to be told that the answer is obvious and that I am a complete nitwit because I don't see the "realities"?
But my realities go along the same line as Fropilot. They suggest to me that there is a lot of guff talked about salaries and conditions in companies like AF.
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An attempt at impartiality might suggest the follow question - and it is only a question. Could it be that as a subsidiary of AF that City Jet was actually in compliance with the law
Maybe you should take the comments of the french nationals here a bit more seriously. They have lived in that country for many years and have first hand experience of the kind of nonsense which is going on.
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Look,I dont want to see anybody lose their jobs or anything but couldnt easyjet relocate to beauvais.Keep the riff-raff out of the peripherique and let AF and the real airlines fly the non-anorakies.The French do everything with great style and naturally they dont want anything crass messing up their beloved Paris.Those mademosielles in their little hostess hats and short skirts serving you champagne and hors d'oeuvres thats what flying is all about.It might be orange in a dump like Luton but lets keep the untouchables out of ORY and CDG.
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What I do know is that last year (like several times before), the European Commission itself has ranked France among the top three offending member States when it comes to non-implementation of EU law.
Then again, it's typical French attitude: if the rules suit us, then fine; otherwise, we'll just ignore them
Welcome to the EU's only banana republic.
Cheers
P.S.: I am French - and ashamed of such arrogant behaviour, which only serves to reinforce all the usual cliches about the French.
Then again, it's typical French attitude: if the rules suit us, then fine; otherwise, we'll just ignore them
Welcome to the EU's only banana republic.
Cheers
P.S.: I am French - and ashamed of such arrogant behaviour, which only serves to reinforce all the usual cliches about the French.
.But when the EEC regulations satisfy them, "our" politician say "it's not our fault, it's what EEC wants".....
So myself, in this particular EZ vs French laws event, I'm also totally ashamed by this behaviour looking like Gestapo or NKVD......
Dominique