Jumpseats in Europe?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Stabchester
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I think ur missing my point, I'm all for jumpseating, allowing friends and family too etc. I just don't pay any respect to the cras stipulations from the DfT.
I will allow a know person in my flight deck EVERY time
I will allow a know person in my flight deck EVERY time
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Between the land and the sky
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If anyone like myself, a BAA ID holder wanted a jumpseat on a flight would we be deemed 'secure' enough to be allowed?
I mean, I work airside for christ's sake and have had several security procedures to follow to even get an airport pass so whats the deal...?
I mean, I work airside for christ's sake and have had several security procedures to follow to even get an airport pass so whats the deal...?
Join Date: Nov 1999
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No you wouldn't ordinarily be allowed. The permitted lists should be in the relevant part of your companies operations manual. Whatever anyone may think about the rules they are not up for individual interpretation.
Cunningplan. It is not your flightdeck, it is your employers. You are employed (I assume) to carry out the statutory obligligations imposed on your employer and forming a part of their operators licence and your own ?
In the UK, if you permit an unauthorized person "known to you", to be on the flight deck, in flight or during any part of the sanctioned prohibition period, you run the very real risk of losing your job, your licence, your livelyhood and potentially your liberty. That risk is amplified given that it only takes another crewmember or a passenger to report such an action.
There are many of us that regret the changes that were introduced post 9-11, but whatever our own views on the subject, it would be grossly negligent to ignore them ( however much contempt one feels), as much as it would be to choose whichever other rules we might decide to ignore.
Cunningplan. It is not your flightdeck, it is your employers. You are employed (I assume) to carry out the statutory obligligations imposed on your employer and forming a part of their operators licence and your own ?
In the UK, if you permit an unauthorized person "known to you", to be on the flight deck, in flight or during any part of the sanctioned prohibition period, you run the very real risk of losing your job, your licence, your livelyhood and potentially your liberty. That risk is amplified given that it only takes another crewmember or a passenger to report such an action.
There are many of us that regret the changes that were introduced post 9-11, but whatever our own views on the subject, it would be grossly negligent to ignore them ( however much contempt one feels), as much as it would be to choose whichever other rules we might decide to ignore.
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It isn't really an opinion, it is a precis of facts. Obviously you are not a Captain so it doesn't matter much other than you will need to wake up and smell the coffee before you aspire to being one.
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Looking at his history, CPML has been earning a living from flying for less than two years - if that. He was researching which flying school to attend in early 2003. Therefore you may weigh his opinion appropriately.
Scroggs
Scroggs
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In my new airline, we are allowed to take anyone we know and trust or collegues on the jumpseats (cabin or cockpit)
We are a European Carrier from a Shengen country and fly Boeing aircraft. This is how it should be with any airline.
The British overreact and are paranoid about what is really important about Aviation Security. And being paranoid is NEVER a good thing in our business.
CPML: You have my support, but I DO have to say that you must oblige by your operators rules to avoid after flight consequences I'm afraid.
HOWEVER: Bealzebub: During flight, the Flight-deck is under the Commanders authority and NOT under the companies! If you do not understand that, it is you who is not a captain in word, nor in deed. The captain allows in his/hers cockpit whoever he chooses whenever he is the commanding officer onboard. If these collide with rules and regulations, it will be dealt with after the captain finished his/hers duties and forseeks his/her command of the aircraft.
We are a European Carrier from a Shengen country and fly Boeing aircraft. This is how it should be with any airline.
The British overreact and are paranoid about what is really important about Aviation Security. And being paranoid is NEVER a good thing in our business.
CPML: You have my support, but I DO have to say that you must oblige by your operators rules to avoid after flight consequences I'm afraid.
HOWEVER: Bealzebub: During flight, the Flight-deck is under the Commanders authority and NOT under the companies! If you do not understand that, it is you who is not a captain in word, nor in deed. The captain allows in his/hers cockpit whoever he chooses whenever he is the commanding officer onboard. If these collide with rules and regulations, it will be dealt with after the captain finished his/hers duties and forseeks his/her command of the aircraft.
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Yes I think we all know that the Captain has "the authority" as opposed to "the ownership" a point seemingly lost on the subject of my response, and a point which you yourself have repeated !
A Commanders authority is in part to comply with and uphold the relevant rules and regulations other than in a situation where there might be compelling reasons not to. Those compelling reasons do not extend to simply satisfying the Commanders opinions, prejudices or moods on any given day. There might indeed be compelling reasons why an unauthorized person is permitted, however such a "compelling reason" is unlikely to extend to the suggestion that it is simply someone you know to whom you wish to extend an otherwise unlawful invitation. Captains are normally appointed for their demonstrated maturity, judgement and common sense in addition to the more technical requirements. If they fail to display such attributes on the line it is a position they are probably unlikely to hold on to.
Like many other jobs an aircraft commander is a team leader who leads by example and good management, not by pointing at their gold bars and saying "I am master of all I survey and I alone will decide which rules apply to me".
I only have 18 years of commanding large aircraft under my belt, and it seems the more experience I aquire in the role the more I need to learn. However I have certainly witnessed the foolishness of those who simply ignore the rules they are required to comply with, because those rules do not suit their own whims or beliefs. In this example (you say) these rules do not apply in your company or country (yet ?) and therefore it is not particularly relevant to you, other than if you are flying into countries such as the USA or the UK where you are required to comply. I have grave doubts that any reported transgressions of the rules would meet with the appropriate authorities gleeful understanding that your perceived "authority" superceded their own ? Perhaps your own command experience (?) gives rise to an alternative viewpoint ?
Maybe now you have a better insight into my understanding of a commanders authority and as important, obligations ?
A Commanders authority is in part to comply with and uphold the relevant rules and regulations other than in a situation where there might be compelling reasons not to. Those compelling reasons do not extend to simply satisfying the Commanders opinions, prejudices or moods on any given day. There might indeed be compelling reasons why an unauthorized person is permitted, however such a "compelling reason" is unlikely to extend to the suggestion that it is simply someone you know to whom you wish to extend an otherwise unlawful invitation. Captains are normally appointed for their demonstrated maturity, judgement and common sense in addition to the more technical requirements. If they fail to display such attributes on the line it is a position they are probably unlikely to hold on to.
Like many other jobs an aircraft commander is a team leader who leads by example and good management, not by pointing at their gold bars and saying "I am master of all I survey and I alone will decide which rules apply to me".
I only have 18 years of commanding large aircraft under my belt, and it seems the more experience I aquire in the role the more I need to learn. However I have certainly witnessed the foolishness of those who simply ignore the rules they are required to comply with, because those rules do not suit their own whims or beliefs. In this example (you say) these rules do not apply in your company or country (yet ?) and therefore it is not particularly relevant to you, other than if you are flying into countries such as the USA or the UK where you are required to comply. I have grave doubts that any reported transgressions of the rules would meet with the appropriate authorities gleeful understanding that your perceived "authority" superceded their own ? Perhaps your own command experience (?) gives rise to an alternative viewpoint ?
Maybe now you have a better insight into my understanding of a commanders authority and as important, obligations ?
Join Date: May 2004
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jumpseat
I have to agree with bealzebub to a large extent. However there are some rules written in the OPS Manuals that have their origins in the low intensity "war" that seems to exist between ground staff and aircrew. In our company there was a huge outcry from ground staff that they were at a disadvantage because captains were giving jumpseats to aircrew who had less seniority than the ground staff who were hoping to ride on the jump. After a huge campaign by the ground staff union the manuals were changed in such a way that the captain could only decide IF he/she was going make jumpseats available but the decision WHO was going to sit on those seats was going to be made by the gate staff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is one rule that I DO NOT adhere to when it comes to the cockpit jumpseat! I will always prefer people that I know personally to sit on that seat. And 99% of the time these personal acquaintences will be either cockpit or cabin crew. If I don't know anybody then I will prefer aircrew over ground staff. The reason is obvious, I think. In the cramped environment of the cockpit I would prefer to have someone who I know will do what I tell them to do when the situation warrants it and who could possibly also be an asset in an emergency situation. Aircrew also know when to keep quiet and when its ok to talk, usually... But if no personal acquaintances or crew are around I will ALWAYS allow ground staff and other airline employees on the jumpseat. If the gate staff complain that I am not following company rules then I just state that I will not be allowing ANYONE on the jumpseat for that flight.
