Picket Pilot's

[LegsUpLucy]

I hear on the grape vine,that Flybe pilots are close to strike action;BA,Easy and even Ryanair guys & gals seek justice.As much as i'm against downing tools in the name of union requests,i feel there is a sea of change amongst the Pilot population in general.
Perhaps now we have come to a point in our evolution,as a collective force,to stop the abuse of our good natured willingness to fly,love and passion we have for our flying careers.Its time to end the abuse of our better nature.
I do feel the industry has been abusing its postion and has played on our weakness for sometime now,is it time to play hard????????
If this is what it takes to end the abuse,so be it,Solidarity to ALL..............

[Lucifer]

The Daily Mail will eat you alive if you strike.

Don't bother - there are other ways to achieve results, and you are in a market that has loads of low-timers who can't get jobs.

Market price signals say you are overpaid if qualified people with appropriate experience cannot get jobs...

[Hand Solo]

Well thats that then. If the Daily Mail don't like it then we'd best not do it.

[Lucifer]

And the rest of the media, passengers, your bank (if you paid for an ATPL), your wife/partner, all of the businesses who will use the competition otherwise etc etc.

If you don't remember what disasterous conequences unions had for the UK in the 70s, look at what work (nothing) the RMT tube staff do for their salary (lots more than an unqualified school leaver should earn).

ScotPilot - you know what I mean - don't be picky. There are many instructors, ATPLs, air taxi, contractors etc who are awaiting, and last of all the low timers at the bottom of the pile. Whose job prospects do YOU think will be hurt by your striking? Yes, the answer is all of the above, who are not yet "there" in the jet job.

[Sadly Cynical]

Originally Posted by Lucifer

There are many instructors, ATPLs, air taxi, contractors etc who are awaiting, and last of all the low timers at the bottom of the pile.

I'm not sure you really understand what sort of experience is required to be the Captain of a A320/B737. The pilot community is starting to wake up to the fact that they are being squeezed to the point of compromised safety. At the same time it is clear that there is a shortage of experienced pilots. Add these two facts together and I think the result will be inevitable.

[fmgc]

Lucifer,

ScotPilot was not being picky. He makes a very valid point that you seem determined to miss.

It doesn't matter how many wannabees there out there with ATPLs and CPLs, if do not have jet time or command time then they are not appropriately qualified to replace the potential strikers.

Airlines have systematically eroded pilot terms & conditions whilst making them fly harder, almost up to the CAP371 limits, with fatiguing work patterns and major roster disruption caused mainly by the lack of crews.

[Nov71]

This is happening across white collar Industry; mainly 'voluntary' unpaid extra hours to stay in the game.
Unions / Management are required to balance the other, else their demands get out of control. White collar workers used to negotiate their own Contracts, now it is take it or leave it. Expect the Civil Service unions to flex their wings soon.

NASA selected a monkey & a man for the first spaceflight. After launch they both opened their sealed orders -
Monkey - control craft during flight, manouvere, operate radio & follow ground commands, land $500M craft safely.
Man - during flight - feed the monkey!

[Lucifer]

I am quite aware - Sadly Cynical - as I am a pilot as well. Refer to my first post again - there are qualified and experienced people without jobs as well and your silly strike actions are not going to help anyone in that position or the ones at the bottom of the pile.

[3Greens]

Lucifer

you are of course correct that there are indeed many licence holders out there. However, in the event of a company strike it's not quite that easy to replace a type rated 777 Capt. Even if BA (for instance) sourced 1000 type rated and experianced pilots, these pilots would then have to complete a BA OPC in the simulator by a CAA approved trainer who is listed on the BA TRTO. Bloody difficult when all the trainers are on the picket line eh?
Oh and i couldn't care less what the daily mail or any other rag thinks...they already think all pilots are on £100K+ and drive Ferraris anyway.

[On_the_bug]

There will be no strikes - just look what has been happening at easy. They talk tough then settle for a mediocre pay rise with no agreements on rostering/pensions/lifestyle or anything else whilst their bosses continue to stuff their pockets full of cash.

At easy in particular the CC are very gullible, believing that they can obtain lifestyle improvements at a time when the company are cancelling 100s of flights due to lack of crew.

If we pilots were clever then we'd be managers: 9-5, Monday to Friday and a big fat bonus at the end of the year. There will be no strikes.

[puddle-jumper2]

There doesn't need to be strikes.
FlyBe (like many airlines) runs on favours by the crew. Take away the favours and 'work to rule' will cause enough problems to make the managers sit up.

[Hirsutesme]

Spot on puddlejumper2. Too many people think industrial action is all about strikes. There are far more imaginative ways of taking action which can have the desired effect.

[-8AS]

Strike action should always be the last action taken by a body of workers regardless of industry. Many other options are available to alter terms and conditions, and these must be exhausted before strike action is contemplated.

[52049er]

I reckon a work to rule will be enough at BA too. Management have admitted they rely on pilots working beyond contractual limits to keep the flying plan working.

And to keep our goodwill they are

- trying to remove a weeks leave from this year's entitlement

- pocketing hundreds of thousands in bonuses

- taking about 40% of my contractual pension to pay for said bonuses

- forcing people to report for work on days off to reach bonus thresholds

- threatening people with dismissal if they report sick

- leaving crew to wait on rainy tarmacs for a bus 'cos they dont get 'measured' on pick up timings whilst sending aggressive letters if you are 1 (yes one) minute late for your bus to the a/c

- tell half truths to the rest of the company about pilots entitlements to make sure we are split about the pension.

...etc etc.

All of the above are wholly true with no exaggeration. Please give me a reason why I should not work to my contract as a result. I will, of course, take stronger industrial action if my union requests. Ahh, the sound of chickens coming home.....

[iflyhighinthesky]

and it is not just the pilots that need to be sorting out T+C and pay. I think the industry as a whole is squeezing and pushing their employees as far as possible for limited money. Dispatch, loaders, pilots, ops, something has to give. Maybe we should all club together? Finally setting some standards for the future, to make sure we do not carry on the path we are now going,
It is a slippery slope we are on, (ground ops especially) but i also recognise what stresses pilots are going through to.

[ATIS]

Why would The Daily Crapper eat flybe alive. They must be making a mint from Flybe's full spread advertising campaign.

Good luck to you all in Flybe, sorry to hear that things havn't changed at Flybe. I decided to walk after all the oneway favours that I did.

[MercenaryAli]

Oh my God!

Nothing changes! This was Manx Airlines/British Regional 10 years ago and no doubt British Midland 10 years before that. We, the pilots, are our own worst enemy because if you quit TRUST me there will be 10 'wannabes' lining up to take your job for less money and worse conditions!
But saying that I wish all at FlyBe (ex Jersey European) all the best. I was amongst the first Captains to start JEA off when we were based in Jersey back in the early 80's, when the owner/boss was a used car salesman - nothing it appears has changed!

[Lucifer]

I don't suggest that anyone could possibly be replaced so quickly in a strike - I simply state that it is a selfish action - regardless of the state of industrial relationships with management - and will hurt those lower down the food chain ultimately.

As noted below by others, there are far more effective routes that can be taken.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Originally Posted by On_the_bug

There will be no strikes - just look what has been happening at easy. They talk tough then settle for a mediocre pay rise with no agreements on rostering/pensions/lifestyle or anything else whilst their bosses continue to stuff their pockets full of cash.
At easy in particular the CC are very gullible, believing that they can obtain lifestyle improvements at a time when the company are cancelling 100s of flights due to lack of crew.

I do not know if 'On_the_bug' is actually an easyJet pilot but I suspect not. If he is, then I am dissapointed at his lack of grasp of what has gone on. Like many people who know little of the real situation he has got his facts wrong. The 'mediocre pay rise' was actually 6% this year (backdated) and 4% next year plus the restoration of the FOs loyalty bonus. As far as I know that is the best deal that any airline has been awarded this year and indeed significantly better than nearly all other sectors of UK industry.

The decision not to tie the current pay deal to rostering agreements was a deliberate one that had virtually total support from the BALPA members within the company. The reason for this was to avoid protracted and messy negotiations where we ended up selling roster deals for cash. The view taken by the majority of people was that you should keep the 2 sets of negotiations separate, and I for one am delighted that is what happened.

Having now won the best deal in the UK airline industry this year, the second and probably more important issue is now being addressed - rostering. The legendary 5/2-5/4 system is universally unpopular and is being debated as we speak. The CC have placed before the company a number of demands which, if not met, will result in an escalation of the dispute. There is a widespread recognition among the pilots that the summer battle is lost and due to leave etc it may be another year before we have a sensible rostering agreement in place. I am one of those who think that trials will have to take place at different bases before introducing new arrangements and I also think that we may end up with slightly different agreements for different bases. The 'one size fits all' approach is increasingly unworkable and I think that will be addressed. The unwise voices crying for strike action now have fortunately been held at bay while more rational individuals actually sort out a workable solution.

Finally, 'On_the_bug' has stated that the CC are gullible. I am not on the CC and have not day-to-day contact with them, but they have done magnificently given an almost impossible group of people they had to deal with. Like I said, this will take about a year to have a decent deal in place and we should not kid ourselves otherwise. The reason we have flights being cancelled is our managers failed to recruit the right number of people at the right time. The error was then compounded by failing to train the requisite number of training captains to train the massive backlog of new entrants. Not to worry - we are now recruiting direct-entry training captains despite having delayed the training courses of our homegrown trainers. I hope that our CEO will be taking a great interest in what has happened and act accordingly - it was all totally avoidable.

Nonetheless, I am confident that when the summer shambles abates, we will have a long term agreement in place to change the current rostering deal. Our CC have done and continue to do a great job in difficult circumstances.

[fmgc]

NSF,

Your comments are a little misleading.

the 6% includes a 2% salary sacrifice for the "smart" pension.

I can not understand why the deal was not a RPI + x% deal. If RPI ends up being 3.5% next year (which is not too unrealistic) the pay deal is rubbish.

I was hoping that there was going to be more of push to set the scene for next year for the rest of the UK airline industry.