First Choice
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First Choice
Guy's/Gals,
Given that First Choice are currently recruiting for flight deck on both fleets, would any current FC flight deck be kind enough to pass comment on their lot? Are you all happy bunnies, any particular problems etc....?
Any comments greatly appreciated,
Cuban_8
Given that First Choice are currently recruiting for flight deck on both fleets, would any current FC flight deck be kind enough to pass comment on their lot? Are you all happy bunnies, any particular problems etc....?
Any comments greatly appreciated,
Cuban_8
As a current FC pilot on the Boeing please feel free to send private message and I'll give you whatever help I can....
nb I think 'drivers' belongs to a rather different world than UK IT airlines !!!!!!
nb I think 'drivers' belongs to a rather different world than UK IT airlines !!!!!!
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First Choice are recruiting, but we don't know what kind of contracts will be offered - there is a possibility that the company will try and get away with "Part Year" contracts again - that is, you work all the hours God sends in the summer and then take the winter off. And yes, you're right, you get 1/2 the going rate. Except they spread it over 12 months to help you get a mortgage.
So if you need a proper job, be careful to check what you are being offered.
FCA as a company are making loads of money, but the pilots have probably the worst Terms and Conditions amongst the UK Charters. Pay is OK but the rest of the package was seriously eroded after Sep 11th and is still not back to that level.
ie. no block window protection, early starts after days off, rubbish leave system, etc. etc.
Command time is looking long - the airline contracted after Sep 11th and the last Command Short List I saw was at least 2 pages long. With only around 10 retirements a year, huge expansion is the only way you'll see a command.
Any other specific questions?
So if you need a proper job, be careful to check what you are being offered.
FCA as a company are making loads of money, but the pilots have probably the worst Terms and Conditions amongst the UK Charters. Pay is OK but the rest of the package was seriously eroded after Sep 11th and is still not back to that level.
ie. no block window protection, early starts after days off, rubbish leave system, etc. etc.
Command time is looking long - the airline contracted after Sep 11th and the last Command Short List I saw was at least 2 pages long. With only around 10 retirements a year, huge expansion is the only way you'll see a command.
Any other specific questions?
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Please do not believe the rubish that Airbus Girl pushes out.
Try looking at www.ppjn.com. That confirms that our pay and conditions are amongst the best.
What terms and conditions have been diluted since 9/11?
With the likes of My Travel in dire trouble and Volare gone yesterday I think we are in a excellent position with good terms and conditions.
So Airbus Girl why dont you poke off elsewhere??
Try looking at www.ppjn.com. That confirms that our pay and conditions are amongst the best.
What terms and conditions have been diluted since 9/11?
With the likes of My Travel in dire trouble and Volare gone yesterday I think we are in a excellent position with good terms and conditions.
So Airbus Girl why dont you poke off elsewhere??
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ott,
I agree our pay and package is competitive but I don't agree that our conditions are the best. This summer has been awful with regard to roster disruption and the resulting impact this has on your lifestyle. Not to mention the continual practice of rostering 0600L starts after days off. As for Airbus Girl's other comments I am sorry to say she is not too far off the mark really.
I agree our pay and package is competitive but I don't agree that our conditions are the best. This summer has been awful with regard to roster disruption and the resulting impact this has on your lifestyle. Not to mention the continual practice of rostering 0600L starts after days off. As for Airbus Girl's other comments I am sorry to say she is not too far off the mark really.
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My point EPR man is what is the alternative. Airbus Girl things there are many alternatives and yet still insists on staying and constantly whinging. Rostering earlies after a day off is the norm in most airlines and was with us . We are lucky many dont even have a scheduling agreement to fall back on, indeed neither did we until just a few years ago.
We must continue to push for improved terms and conditions but be realistic at the same time. If you owned the company as our shareholders do, you would insist the pilots work their contracted hours of 900. So lets get real banging of the door is always going to be fruitless. The only mileage we may get is if as an entity the pilot workforce lobbied to change the laws regarding CAP371.
That means letters to MPs followed by letters to MPs etc etc.
Airbus and the like seem more interested in letters to PPrune.
So please stop slagging off a company that provide you with a good salary and look from the position of you being in the management post. (eg. flog the pilots until they can take no more or the rules change). They have taken it for over 10 years few pilots have left. Why change summut that aint broke!!!!That is there attitude and I cant blame them.
We must continue to push for improved terms and conditions but be realistic at the same time. If you owned the company as our shareholders do, you would insist the pilots work their contracted hours of 900. So lets get real banging of the door is always going to be fruitless. The only mileage we may get is if as an entity the pilot workforce lobbied to change the laws regarding CAP371.
That means letters to MPs followed by letters to MPs etc etc.
Airbus and the like seem more interested in letters to PPrune.
So please stop slagging off a company that provide you with a good salary and look from the position of you being in the management post. (eg. flog the pilots until they can take no more or the rules change). They have taken it for over 10 years few pilots have left. Why change summut that aint broke!!!!That is there attitude and I cant blame them.
Lots left 96-96 because parent holiday company badly managed by Francis Baron - late of RFU - and Flying Colours aka JMC/TC was being set up by some senior ex- Air 2000 management. At same time Airtours were trying to buy First Choice and perception was that a night of very long knives would decimate Air 2000. Whatever happened to Airtours/MYT plans to dominate UK holiday industry ?
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I stand by my original post. ott please tell us what conditions (not talking pay here) that the other charter airlines have that are worse than ours, with the items mentioned.
Just because we are not Ryanair doesn't mean that we have good terms and conditions.
This is a post asking about the reality of life at First Choice, so I am being honest about it. ott wants to turn it into a "my company is better than yours" thread which won't really help Cuban 8 decide if this company is one to work for.
Cuban 8, please feel free to ask specifics then we can give you specifics and you can make your own mind up - it depends who you work for now really.
As for people leaving, believe what you like but we now have around 160 FOs. In 2001 we had 200 FOs. There have been no new commands since then, only the demotions after Sep 11th. You do the maths.
I could personally name a number of people including a Captain who have left in the last couple of years to go to the likes of EasyJet, Virgin, Emirates and BA.
Just because we are not Ryanair doesn't mean that we have good terms and conditions.
This is a post asking about the reality of life at First Choice, so I am being honest about it. ott wants to turn it into a "my company is better than yours" thread which won't really help Cuban 8 decide if this company is one to work for.
Cuban 8, please feel free to ask specifics then we can give you specifics and you can make your own mind up - it depends who you work for now really.
As for people leaving, believe what you like but we now have around 160 FOs. In 2001 we had 200 FOs. There have been no new commands since then, only the demotions after Sep 11th. You do the maths.
I could personally name a number of people including a Captain who have left in the last couple of years to go to the likes of EasyJet, Virgin, Emirates and BA.
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Most others airline pension schemes are worse than ours. Loss of license. (many dont even have one). Permanent health insurance is excellent. Flight pay. Day off payments. Flight pay....Shall I carry on. As I mentioned before why dont you leave if the grass is greener.
Cuban 8 feel free to PM me also.
Cuban 8 feel free to PM me also.
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First Choice Airways has just woken up to the fact that pilots are leaving and will probably be leaving in largish numbers. Ther are lots in the various holding pools of Vigin, easy and BA And this is quite something, as just a matter of weeks ago, FCA "was not going to be short of pilots as their not leaving"- being the official line.
These pilots that are leaving, are the ones who are mainly lower down on the seniority lists (although by no means exclusively) who have found that it will be many years before they get a crack at a command. In the region of 6+ years.
The official line from FCA is that we are a mature airline like Britannia and Monarch. This is what happens when the airline stops growing i.e commands created only be from retirements, and you can hardly fault them for that! Where FCA falls down though, is that it is not willing to recognise and reward the potential loyalty and commitment of guys and girls in the RHS who are, or will be long suffering FO's. Monarch for example, give their FO's a notional command seniority, so that when they do eventually get a command, they go on at a higher pay scale. A recognition of their commitment to the airline.
A closer look at terms and conditions of these airlines (available form the BAPLA website and others), will quickly show that FCA is at the bottom of the "mature" airlines. BY for example get an extra weeks leave, pay more and have superior holiday concessions. FCA's holiday concessions have not increased in over 10 years!
Let us not forget why people chose to join FCA in years gone by rather than go to Britannia and Monarch . It was the lure of a quick command and you could easily off set lower terms and conditions against the extra 20k a quick command would bring.
Then easyJet and the likes came along with even poorer terms and conditions.... can you see a pattern?
As for me, I quite like it. Just know that if you want to join a charter airline, without the lure of a quick command you would do well to look at the whole package. Although we are not bad, if you're going to join the bottom of a long seniority list then you might as well join the one that is the best. I don't think it is FCA. Good luck though!
These pilots that are leaving, are the ones who are mainly lower down on the seniority lists (although by no means exclusively) who have found that it will be many years before they get a crack at a command. In the region of 6+ years.
The official line from FCA is that we are a mature airline like Britannia and Monarch. This is what happens when the airline stops growing i.e commands created only be from retirements, and you can hardly fault them for that! Where FCA falls down though, is that it is not willing to recognise and reward the potential loyalty and commitment of guys and girls in the RHS who are, or will be long suffering FO's. Monarch for example, give their FO's a notional command seniority, so that when they do eventually get a command, they go on at a higher pay scale. A recognition of their commitment to the airline.
A closer look at terms and conditions of these airlines (available form the BAPLA website and others), will quickly show that FCA is at the bottom of the "mature" airlines. BY for example get an extra weeks leave, pay more and have superior holiday concessions. FCA's holiday concessions have not increased in over 10 years!
Let us not forget why people chose to join FCA in years gone by rather than go to Britannia and Monarch . It was the lure of a quick command and you could easily off set lower terms and conditions against the extra 20k a quick command would bring.
Then easyJet and the likes came along with even poorer terms and conditions.... can you see a pattern?
As for me, I quite like it. Just know that if you want to join a charter airline, without the lure of a quick command you would do well to look at the whole package. Although we are not bad, if you're going to join the bottom of a long seniority list then you might as well join the one that is the best. I don't think it is FCA. Good luck though!
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This may have been discussed before, but can someone talk about what the schedules are generally like for First Choice in both the winter and summer? For example, in winter 2 days on 5 days off and in summer 5 days on 2 days off... Again, just general schedules - most likely.
Does the schedule vary based on aircraft for non North Atlantic travel (i.e., 757 vs. A320/A321)?
Lastly, if someone actually had a choice between Easy or First Choice, which should he choose and why? Let's say that person had no preference between charter and scheduled flying and base location was not an issue. Please no flaming.
Cheers
Does the schedule vary based on aircraft for non North Atlantic travel (i.e., 757 vs. A320/A321)?
Lastly, if someone actually had a choice between Easy or First Choice, which should he choose and why? Let's say that person had no preference between charter and scheduled flying and base location was not an issue. Please no flaming.
Cheers
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Easy or FCA is a hard one. Easyjet you'll get a much earlier command, but then once you have it, you will spend the rest of your career doing short haul )although admittedly no night flights). With FCA there is always the possibility of long haul, although you can't only do long haul. Otherwise, not a lot in it!
As for schedules, this past summer its mainly been 6 on, 2 off, with some 7 day blocks (very few). An example, in October I had just under 100 hours block time rostered and 7 days off for the month. Also, one of the pairs of days off I had a lateish finish before, and a 6.30am start after. This is not unusual. In the winter we have a reciprocal agreement with a Canadian airline and a number of our pilots depart for Canada for the winter. This of course helps FCA make money, but does mean that the era of quiet winters has passed. I expect to be doing around 70 hours some months in the winter, although you usually get one, maybe two quiet months where not much happens.
There is a limit of 800 hours before overtime kicks in, but they will most likely stop you flying rather than pay you overtime.
I've not done many standbys this year at all - most flights where I was weren't covered, but if you get them then they are 6 hours and done from home (need to get to airport 1.5 hours after being called).
Night flights - varies from base to base. Minimum I would think is around 3 or 4 a month of deep night flights, ie. starting at 11pm or starting at 5/6pm and then back anything up to 8am. Night flights are usually rostered at the end of the run of 6 days on, and usually you do 2 or 3 in a row. There is a total mix of earlies/ lates before the nights. If you do this at least you get an early finish before your days off.
To pick up on ott's comments. We have private health insurance (pay extra for partner/ kids). The regular sick pay, PHI and Loss of Licence are all "self-insured" by First Choice. There are exclusions, certainly on sick pay and LoL that restrict what they will pay for - eg. if you doing anything that they may consider to be risky then they may not meet the claim. The way the policies are written, that could include things like skiing. sailing or quad biking. The private medical insurance doesn't have these extra restrictions. So whether having these policies is a benefit depends on what you do outside of work.
We get day off payments. Its basic salary/224 x 1.5 per day.
You get 104 days off per year, unless you've sold any back to the company.
Flight pay is £2.46 per hour, payable for block times. No sector pay, which I think is what Easy get.
We have a scheduling agreement but it doesn't give block roster protection like Britannia or MyTravel have. You can also be rostered to work earlies after days off (no choice) but the company has to give you £25-75 for it (before tax).
Leave. We get 37 days off (including days in lieu of bank holidays). Max 20 days off in summer. You have to book leave in blocks of 4 days off, and the blocks are pre-determined. So if you want to go on holiday from Sat-Sat in August then you have to see which dates the blocks start on a Saturday. It also means you need to know where you are going on holiday about a year in advance.
There are also RDOs which you can book 3 a month, max. 26 days a year, max 14 per season and only 6 per season at weekends (if you book a Fri, Sat or Sun then you have to book an adjacent day as well, you can't take a single weekend day off).
Pensions. There is a money purchase in operation which is OK, but I think Britannia might still be offering final salary scheme.
Hope this helps!!
I know of people who've left us to go to EasyJet but I don't know of anyone who has come the other way (presumably because we've not been recruiting).
As for schedules, this past summer its mainly been 6 on, 2 off, with some 7 day blocks (very few). An example, in October I had just under 100 hours block time rostered and 7 days off for the month. Also, one of the pairs of days off I had a lateish finish before, and a 6.30am start after. This is not unusual. In the winter we have a reciprocal agreement with a Canadian airline and a number of our pilots depart for Canada for the winter. This of course helps FCA make money, but does mean that the era of quiet winters has passed. I expect to be doing around 70 hours some months in the winter, although you usually get one, maybe two quiet months where not much happens.
There is a limit of 800 hours before overtime kicks in, but they will most likely stop you flying rather than pay you overtime.
I've not done many standbys this year at all - most flights where I was weren't covered, but if you get them then they are 6 hours and done from home (need to get to airport 1.5 hours after being called).
Night flights - varies from base to base. Minimum I would think is around 3 or 4 a month of deep night flights, ie. starting at 11pm or starting at 5/6pm and then back anything up to 8am. Night flights are usually rostered at the end of the run of 6 days on, and usually you do 2 or 3 in a row. There is a total mix of earlies/ lates before the nights. If you do this at least you get an early finish before your days off.
To pick up on ott's comments. We have private health insurance (pay extra for partner/ kids). The regular sick pay, PHI and Loss of Licence are all "self-insured" by First Choice. There are exclusions, certainly on sick pay and LoL that restrict what they will pay for - eg. if you doing anything that they may consider to be risky then they may not meet the claim. The way the policies are written, that could include things like skiing. sailing or quad biking. The private medical insurance doesn't have these extra restrictions. So whether having these policies is a benefit depends on what you do outside of work.
We get day off payments. Its basic salary/224 x 1.5 per day.
You get 104 days off per year, unless you've sold any back to the company.
Flight pay is £2.46 per hour, payable for block times. No sector pay, which I think is what Easy get.
We have a scheduling agreement but it doesn't give block roster protection like Britannia or MyTravel have. You can also be rostered to work earlies after days off (no choice) but the company has to give you £25-75 for it (before tax).
Leave. We get 37 days off (including days in lieu of bank holidays). Max 20 days off in summer. You have to book leave in blocks of 4 days off, and the blocks are pre-determined. So if you want to go on holiday from Sat-Sat in August then you have to see which dates the blocks start on a Saturday. It also means you need to know where you are going on holiday about a year in advance.
There are also RDOs which you can book 3 a month, max. 26 days a year, max 14 per season and only 6 per season at weekends (if you book a Fri, Sat or Sun then you have to book an adjacent day as well, you can't take a single weekend day off).
Pensions. There is a money purchase in operation which is OK, but I think Britannia might still be offering final salary scheme.
Hope this helps!!
I know of people who've left us to go to EasyJet but I don't know of anyone who has come the other way (presumably because we've not been recruiting).
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Cuban 8-
You should consider Thomsonfly (Britannia). The 737 is being brought up to the mainline T+C's, with even the Final Salary pension available in the mid-term.
Start on the 737 and end up a skipper on the 767-300 (7e7?). Good rosters, good T+C's, great bunch of guys. Never any summer Captains, etc, etc.
You should consider Thomsonfly (Britannia). The 737 is being brought up to the mainline T+C's, with even the Final Salary pension available in the mid-term.
Start on the 737 and end up a skipper on the 767-300 (7e7?). Good rosters, good T+C's, great bunch of guys. Never any summer Captains, etc, etc.
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Airbus Girl
The following link is why we must all write to our MPs. If we dont sort out the problem now you soon wont be whinging about an extra sixpence. Flagging cheap labour from Europe is a problem we must all address.
www.ppjn.com and go to:-
22 Nov - Slovac Republic (Major\National\Low Cost) - SkyEurope Airlines
The following link is why we must all write to our MPs. If we dont sort out the problem now you soon wont be whinging about an extra sixpence. Flagging cheap labour from Europe is a problem we must all address.
www.ppjn.com and go to:-
22 Nov - Slovac Republic (Major\National\Low Cost) - SkyEurope Airlines
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Well that makes sense!
As for cheap labour from Europe, I think Air 2000/FCA had their fingers well and truly burnt when they tried that escapade this summer with contract pilots from various parts of mainland Europe didn't they? I understand they are not planning on repeating that little exercise....
As for cheap labour from Europe, I think Air 2000/FCA had their fingers well and truly burnt when they tried that escapade this summer with contract pilots from various parts of mainland Europe didn't they? I understand they are not planning on repeating that little exercise....