Flight Attendants can compare their pay to Pilots pay: Only in Canada you say...?
Meaw and Gang: Fudpucker's points were a bit subtle, and suggested satire.
His portrayal of the general assumptions made by many American ("self-loading freight" types) passengers is accurate, many of who have limited respect for either pilots OR those who are dedicated to the other airline professions (maybe little for themselves) when they board wearing average blue jeans and a t-shirt, with the typical American Wal-Mart/"Jerry Springer show", "yeah, I've seen it all, know it all"/lowest possible cost/lowest-common-denominator mentality. Even some well-educated academics and business types (many would love to steal from your already-jeopardized retirement funds) seem to consider themselves above us, and that flying is not a profession. A junior high teacher/middle school teacher once made this claim.
A study was done here about 15 years ago, which concluded that many airline passengers walk on and off, just like on a subway, having only a vague sense of perspective and scale regarding the fuselage length, height above the ground, wingspan etc. They therefore have a mentality which is the same for people who step onto a subway.
Add to that, the fact that they can fly some of these planes on their desktop computer, and often "survive" the mission.
His portrayal of the general assumptions made by many American ("self-loading freight" types) passengers is accurate, many of who have limited respect for either pilots OR those who are dedicated to the other airline professions (maybe little for themselves) when they board wearing average blue jeans and a t-shirt, with the typical American Wal-Mart/"Jerry Springer show", "yeah, I've seen it all, know it all"/lowest possible cost/lowest-common-denominator mentality. Even some well-educated academics and business types (many would love to steal from your already-jeopardized retirement funds) seem to consider themselves above us, and that flying is not a profession. A junior high teacher/middle school teacher once made this claim.
A study was done here about 15 years ago, which concluded that many airline passengers walk on and off, just like on a subway, having only a vague sense of perspective and scale regarding the fuselage length, height above the ground, wingspan etc. They therefore have a mentality which is the same for people who step onto a subway.
Add to that, the fact that they can fly some of these planes on their desktop computer, and often "survive" the mission.
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Ignition Override
Mate, fair suck of the sav!
As a SLF with a not inconsequential aviation background, I have more than a passing acquaintance with what goes on both on the flight deck, ground ops and ATC.
I “dips me lid” to professionals, be they flight deck, engineering or cabin crew.
And as a self employed professional myself, I’m extremely conscious of customer service. After all, clients are my livelihood. They provide me with my income stream, and don’t come back if they are unhappy with the service I provide.
So it is with airlines. Generally, I don’t meet flight deck and engineering staffs; consequently I take their professionalism on trust. But I do meet cabin crew. When I travel, I don’t expect forelock tugging. But I do expect availability during long flights, good manners and attention to reasonable requests – something that many major carriers fail to provide.
Mate, fair suck of the sav!
As a SLF with a not inconsequential aviation background, I have more than a passing acquaintance with what goes on both on the flight deck, ground ops and ATC.
I “dips me lid” to professionals, be they flight deck, engineering or cabin crew.
And as a self employed professional myself, I’m extremely conscious of customer service. After all, clients are my livelihood. They provide me with my income stream, and don’t come back if they are unhappy with the service I provide.
So it is with airlines. Generally, I don’t meet flight deck and engineering staffs; consequently I take their professionalism on trust. But I do meet cabin crew. When I travel, I don’t expect forelock tugging. But I do expect availability during long flights, good manners and attention to reasonable requests – something that many major carriers fail to provide.
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Nowadays if you don't get the same paycheck as the bloke/chick next to you, irrespective of education, training etc, it's called discrimination.
Back in the old days it was institutionalised in a bigger region and was called communism.
Look where it took them to.
Back in the old days it was institutionalised in a bigger region and was called communism.
Look where it took them to.
Fire the lawyers
Seems to me AC (and the FA's)should have fired their lawyers about 13 years back. This is like something out of Bleak House. What it really smacks of is lawyers punching the clock in a perpetual motion machine.
There is no equity case here. Let it go to court and be done with it. The TC statutory requirements for the positions are so well documented that all they need to is lay it out in court. Canadian courts have done some really dumb bunnies in the last few years but they are not that dumb and equity cases are not that easy to win. It's a bit like flying - it's harder than it looks.
20driver
There is no equity case here. Let it go to court and be done with it. The TC statutory requirements for the positions are so well documented that all they need to is lay it out in court. Canadian courts have done some really dumb bunnies in the last few years but they are not that dumb and equity cases are not that easy to win. It's a bit like flying - it's harder than it looks.
20driver
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You have to understand 'The Canadian Way.' It's the Socialist Agenda that we are all equal.
Doesn't matter that the guy next to you invested more time, money and education to achieve the end result.
If YOU have something, then I get it too.
CUPE, the Air Canada Flight Attendants Union, is holding out the Feminist Agenda. We were wronged because we are predominately Female.
Doesn't matter that the guy next to you invested more time, money and education to achieve the end result.
If YOU have something, then I get it too.
CUPE, the Air Canada Flight Attendants Union, is holding out the Feminist Agenda. We were wronged because we are predominately Female.
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crew pay difference
when will the pay rates be the same??? maybe after an unfortunate event like 911 when more crew are murdered and the flight deck are behind there locked and bullet proof, then maybe we will get some kind of danger money to bring us near to the F/D BASIC wage 
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And your point is?
The 'check-out girl at the local Convenience store,' working the midnight shift, has a more dangerous job than a F/A.
Her chances of getting shot and robbed are pretty good. That doesn't make it a career.
The 'check-out girl at the local Convenience store,' working the midnight shift, has a more dangerous job than a F/A.
Her chances of getting shot and robbed are pretty good. That doesn't make it a career.
Rebel PPRuNer
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IANAL - but as I read the judgement the case was solely about one thing, and it wasn't pushbuttons, or FA quals via pilot quals. The case could have been taken by any union in any industry in Canada.
Basically, the FAs (most of them female) claimed sexual discrimination since they're paid differently from pilots and mechs who are mostly male. AC submitted to the Human Rights Tribunal that because they bargain in a separate unit from pilots and mechs, no further hearing of the case was required since discrimination would only be if you paid people in the same bargaining unit separately. The HRT agreed and terminated the case.
What the Federal Appeal Court and the Supremes essentially said is that if the FAs/pilots/mechs all work for the same company and are governed by the same HR dept, whether they bargain separately does not insulate AC from a full hearing of discrimination issues. They did not say AC are discriminating - the case is now remanded back to the HRT to decide that.
This case has been going since '91!
Basically, the FAs (most of them female) claimed sexual discrimination since they're paid differently from pilots and mechs who are mostly male. AC submitted to the Human Rights Tribunal that because they bargain in a separate unit from pilots and mechs, no further hearing of the case was required since discrimination would only be if you paid people in the same bargaining unit separately. The HRT agreed and terminated the case.
What the Federal Appeal Court and the Supremes essentially said is that if the FAs/pilots/mechs all work for the same company and are governed by the same HR dept, whether they bargain separately does not insulate AC from a full hearing of discrimination issues. They did not say AC are discriminating - the case is now remanded back to the HRT to decide that.
This case has been going since '91!
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They are completely different jobs so why would anyone deem it necessary to have the same T+C's. They are interlinked I will give you that but so is Doctor/nurse Dentist/Dental nurse Lawyer/Legal Secretary Do you really think that any of the aforementioned are thinking they need the same T+C's. No they may wish they had but they can spot the difference. Different Jobs same as Pilot/FA. Totally different. If Cabin Crew had better T+C's then we would probably be bitching, but as stated it is a different job. It is up to us to fight for better conditions as it is for the F/A's.
Rant over
R.I
Rant over
R.I
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johnny 767
Put that "check out girl" in a metal tube at 35,000 feet, then take away her option of not being used as a missle. Any one can walk in and out of a shop. We cant walk in and out of an aircraft! Anyone who has a job on the ground can have that happen to them, but as I said they can jump out the window or run for the nearest door, WE CANT.
This is a subject that will never change, its like comparing it to doctors and nurses or what came first the chicken or the egg.
Flight Deck are paid for what they know NOT what they do - Fair enough. We all know how long you guys actually fly the aircaft for, hell in reality you just take off, the computer CAN land itself. O sorry theres the stopping of the aircraft - speed brakes, reverse thrust blah blah. Thats not a cheap stab at the guys up front though, as one of the few straight cabin crew I do like going up to the F/D and having a laugh and getting away from galley fm, chatting about magazine crap and who went out in Big brother. Some times you guys keep me from going nuts on a 10 hr flight.
This is a subject that will never change, its like comparing it to doctors and nurses or what came first the chicken or the egg.
Flight Deck are paid for what they know NOT what they do - Fair enough. We all know how long you guys actually fly the aircaft for, hell in reality you just take off, the computer CAN land itself. O sorry theres the stopping of the aircraft - speed brakes, reverse thrust blah blah. Thats not a cheap stab at the guys up front though, as one of the few straight cabin crew I do like going up to the F/D and having a laugh and getting away from galley fm, chatting about magazine crap and who went out in Big brother. Some times you guys keep me from going nuts on a 10 hr flight.
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Originally Posted by crib08
We all know how long you guys actually fly the aircaft for, hell in reality you just take off, the computer CAN land itself. O sorry theres the stopping of the aircraft - speed brakes, reverse thrust blah blah. Thats not a cheap stab at the guys up front though.
Before i get to the airport im making decisions like am i fit to fly. Then as i approach the airport whats the weather like is it foggy or gin clear. What runway are the other a/c taking off on, is it icy and cold or hazy and hot. Some of these are things im sure most cabin crew never even think of.
Then we have to make CRITICAL decisions on the weather, fuel required, whether or not the a/c is fit to fly, are our diversions suitable etc etc etc.
Do we have a slot, has the catering arrived, has all the crew arrived, has fuelling started, do we need to de-ice ,where's the crew transport why aren't the pax on board now our slot has come forward etc.
That's the HELL of reallity BEFORE TAKE OFF. As for the computer CAN land, I'm not sure if your aware or not but turboprops dont have autothrottles and therefore autolands are not possible. We land the aircraft and even those a/c with A/T, 100% of their crews prefer to land manaully only using autoland when its required ie fog or training purposes.
As you can probably tell i have been ruffled slightly by your comments and i hope that as i said earlier that they were made tongue in cheek and if so i apologise. If not please read the above again and reconsider.
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If you read your companies A1, Basic Operating Manual (or whatever it's called in your company) and count the number of times the phrase "the Captain is responsible for..................." is mentioned, you will realise that that is why the guys and gals (they get paid the same as guys doing the same job) in the flight deck are paid more.
If you think of pay as a bribe to take responsibility and agree that the market sets the rate, you will find that for the responsibility taken, the market rate for cabin crew is less than that for pilots. There are not many things that a cabin crew member could do (professionally) that could lead to them being charged with manslaughter (or worse) but pilots live with that risk everyday and their pay is at a level to compensate them for it.
Then there is the issue of aircraft handling skills. Pilots have them, cabin crew don't. Having taken cabin crew in the simulator for familiarisation trips, they are very quickly disabused of the notion that "I could do what you do". Fact is they can't. Airlines have to recruit people to be pilots with aircraft handling skills. There are less of these in the world than those with trolley handling skills. Therefore the price paid for the more scarce commodity is higher.
Sorry, but it's simple really !
If you think of pay as a bribe to take responsibility and agree that the market sets the rate, you will find that for the responsibility taken, the market rate for cabin crew is less than that for pilots. There are not many things that a cabin crew member could do (professionally) that could lead to them being charged with manslaughter (or worse) but pilots live with that risk everyday and their pay is at a level to compensate them for it.
Then there is the issue of aircraft handling skills. Pilots have them, cabin crew don't. Having taken cabin crew in the simulator for familiarisation trips, they are very quickly disabused of the notion that "I could do what you do". Fact is they can't. Airlines have to recruit people to be pilots with aircraft handling skills. There are less of these in the world than those with trolley handling skills. Therefore the price paid for the more scarce commodity is higher.
Sorry, but it's simple really !
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36050100
Couldn't agree more.
But in saying that the cabin crew have a skills set that many pilots would struggle to match and that is direct customer service skills.
As pax are becomming more and more rude demanding and down right disgusting its the FA's that have to deal directly with them and for that they must be commended but not with the same pay as flight deck.
If an airline sponsors a cadet all the way through to the line it will spend in the region of £100,000 doing so and many many fractions less for cabin crew how can any court justify equal wages for entirely different jobs.
Couldn't agree more.
But in saying that the cabin crew have a skills set that many pilots would struggle to match and that is direct customer service skills.
As pax are becomming more and more rude demanding and down right disgusting its the FA's that have to deal directly with them and for that they must be commended but not with the same pay as flight deck.
If an airline sponsors a cadet all the way through to the line it will spend in the region of £100,000 doing so and many many fractions less for cabin crew how can any court justify equal wages for entirely different jobs.
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It's Funny That At Air Canada We Have Men Pilots And Women Pilots And They Make The Same Salary.we Have Male And Female Engineers And They Make The Same Wages.
Even The Male Flight Attendants Make The Same Salaries As The Female Fa's.
This Discrimination Cr..p Is Bull.....it.
If You Want The Pay Then Do What You Have To Do To Get The Job.period
Crib 08, Being An Fa Is Less Dangerous Than Being A Taxi Driver On The Crazy Roads 12 Hours A Day.it's Much Less Dangerous Than The Job Of A Ramp Worker Whose Exposed To Moving Vehicles Of All Types ,jet Blast,moving Acft Etc..
As Mentionned Before It's Much Less Dangerous As A Cashier At An Overnight Gas Station.maybe Bank Tellers Should Ask For Danger Pay As Well Because Of Holdups.
Get Real!
Even The Male Flight Attendants Make The Same Salaries As The Female Fa's.
This Discrimination Cr..p Is Bull.....it.
If You Want The Pay Then Do What You Have To Do To Get The Job.period
Crib 08, Being An Fa Is Less Dangerous Than Being A Taxi Driver On The Crazy Roads 12 Hours A Day.it's Much Less Dangerous Than The Job Of A Ramp Worker Whose Exposed To Moving Vehicles Of All Types ,jet Blast,moving Acft Etc..
As Mentionned Before It's Much Less Dangerous As A Cashier At An Overnight Gas Station.maybe Bank Tellers Should Ask For Danger Pay As Well Because Of Holdups.
Get Real!
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Hm.. Take your time to read the article. I may be mistaken, but to me it sounds like the ruling was that they could be compared, but would be adjusted to reflect levels of skill and knowledge as well as responsibility.
It does not say - you all should earn the same money, no matter what you do (wasn't that tried out in many socialist/communist countries?).
The particular relevance I assume comes from the different demographics of Flight vs Cabin Crew and different collective agreements between them.
Give the courts some credit for common sense (*bring on the flames for that one...*)
It does not say - you all should earn the same money, no matter what you do (wasn't that tried out in many socialist/communist countries?).
The particular relevance I assume comes from the different demographics of Flight vs Cabin Crew and different collective agreements between them.
Give the courts some credit for common sense (*bring on the flames for that one...*)
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Equal Pay... WOOOO HOOOOO... Can't wait for my pay rise and the prospect of earning flight pay. As a First Officer in my airline I was earning considerably less than the CC members and not recieving flight pay as they do. Fair..No... Discrimination.. No... Just the company taking the P**s. as mentioned before it's supply and demand. The chief pilot shook a tree and along with a whole load of other F/o's, I fell nearest his feet.
Surely they can't compare these jobs onthe same level? As again mentioned before it's a 3 week course compared to 50k-60k min slog through the desolate years of flght training...
Hey Ho, I'm working and loving it. Please let the Sim go ok next time, please don't let me have to fill in nasty paper work for the CAA to inspect, please don't let the stress of my financial situation affect my health so the AME can take my blue book away.... AAAAAARRRRGGGGGHGGHGHGHHHH
Surely they can't compare these jobs onthe same level? As again mentioned before it's a 3 week course compared to 50k-60k min slog through the desolate years of flght training...
Hey Ho, I'm working and loving it. Please let the Sim go ok next time, please don't let me have to fill in nasty paper work for the CAA to inspect, please don't let the stress of my financial situation affect my health so the AME can take my blue book away.... AAAAAARRRRGGGGGHGGHGHGHHHH
