BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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I believe Eddington's & Rishton's (CFO) pensions accrued at twice the rate of other employees. Both are now gone. Fair enough, Eddington's departure was known about in advance because he did say five years and no more. Rishton recently jumped ship for a better job elsewhere, so that was money well spent on "keeping talent in the company".
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the BA board have better pensions than staff. This type of thing has been a bone of contention for some time. The "poor bloody infantry" take all the pensions risk while company bosses are shielded from the effects of shortfalls. Same with MP's, Uk taxpayers are funding the MP's scheme deficit. One law for them, one for the rest of us.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the BA board have better pensions than staff. This type of thing has been a bone of contention for some time. The "poor bloody infantry" take all the pensions risk while company bosses are shielded from the effects of shortfalls. Same with MP's, Uk taxpayers are funding the MP's scheme deficit. One law for them, one for the rest of us.
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BA CAN AFFORD TO PAY
It's accepted that they have assets of 2.4 Billion that are not used for operational reasons.
Profits , already £450Million (before tax ) are within 4 years likely to approach £1 Billion as the company hits a 10% margin.
The facts are that LHR is a goldmine. BA is an inefficient, clumsy, poorly run company and has the potential to make even more money.
It has been paying down debt at a rate of over £1 billion per year since 2001.
Recent share movements show the sentiment ;
http://www.advfn.com/p.php?pid=stati...&cb=1144448422
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I read the company newspaper and this appears to show many staff are very happy with the changes BA want, even a feeling of this is a great result.
On the company intranet site, they have a discussion thread about the pensions, staff have put comments on said, but it appears BA is very very selective on comments that get posted.
BA are working this very well.
If any of these changes get accepted, good luck to the staff in old age, you will need it I'm sure.
If any of these changes get accepted, good luck to the managers and enjoy all that extra cash and shares you will be getting.
Time To Wake Up And Smell The Roses.???
On the company intranet site, they have a discussion thread about the pensions, staff have put comments on said, but it appears BA is very very selective on comments that get posted.
BA are working this very well.
If any of these changes get accepted, good luck to the staff in old age, you will need it I'm sure.
If any of these changes get accepted, good luck to the managers and enjoy all that extra cash and shares you will be getting.
Time To Wake Up And Smell The Roses.???
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and now on internal messages, pilots are being told to stop going along to pension briefing of cabin crew 'cos we've been asking awkward questions and exposing the real proposals and their drawbacks.
Oh, and by the way, the person telling us to butt out is GMFO Capt Paul Douglas, the Prince of Darkness. Just a minute though, that's right, he's a NAPS Pension Trustee appointed by the company.
Oh, and by the way, the person telling us to butt out is GMFO Capt Paul Douglas, the Prince of Darkness. Just a minute though, that's right, he's a NAPS Pension Trustee appointed by the company.
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£2.4 BILLION?
Shuttleworth, Where have you got that figure from?
As far as I'm aware, pretty much every fixed asset that isn't in use has been flogged off since 9/11.
Most current assets have large liabilities offsetting them e.g around £1bn of cash is held for tickets sold but not yet flown. BA has a liability to those passengers.
I want my pension as much as everyone, and I'm not happy with the offer, but claims that can't be supported don't help the arguement
As far as I'm aware, pretty much every fixed asset that isn't in use has been flogged off since 9/11.
Most current assets have large liabilities offsetting them e.g around £1bn of cash is held for tickets sold but not yet flown. BA has a liability to those passengers.
I want my pension as much as everyone, and I'm not happy with the offer, but claims that can't be supported don't help the arguement
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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All the figures BALPA have come from BA and are in the public domain (if one looks hard enough).
Last edited by Human Factor; 9th Apr 2006 at 09:32.
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My issue is the statement that these are not in operational use.
At Q3 BA had £11.9bn of assets on the Balance sheet (Interim statement on BAshares.com)
£8.0bn consisted of Aircraft, Property and other Equipment. These are all in use.
£0.2 bn of slots There are in use
£0.4bn of other long term asset. To be honest, I'm not sure about these
£1.1bn of stock, and debtors. These are an essential part of running the operation. Maybe BA could run with lower balances, but you risk sales and operational shortages
£2.1bn of Cash & equivalent. Around a billion of this is owed back to passengers who have yet to fly, and about 0.5bn is needed to repay loans within 12 months.
Using numbers from the accounts without thinking what they really represent is going to weaken the case.
I really believe that its better to stick to the basic points of principle
The offer is not a final salary scheme
Capping the index linking to 2.5% will risk our finances
At Q3 BA had £11.9bn of assets on the Balance sheet (Interim statement on BAshares.com)
£8.0bn consisted of Aircraft, Property and other Equipment. These are all in use.
£0.2 bn of slots There are in use
£0.4bn of other long term asset. To be honest, I'm not sure about these
£1.1bn of stock, and debtors. These are an essential part of running the operation. Maybe BA could run with lower balances, but you risk sales and operational shortages
£2.1bn of Cash & equivalent. Around a billion of this is owed back to passengers who have yet to fly, and about 0.5bn is needed to repay loans within 12 months.
Using numbers from the accounts without thinking what they really represent is going to weaken the case.
I really believe that its better to stick to the basic points of principle
The offer is not a final salary scheme
Capping the index linking to 2.5% will risk our finances
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Top Bunk,
A shocking conflict of interests I think!!!
Pension Trustee tells pilots not to ask difficult questions during the cabin crew pension briefings. BA's management is rotten to the core.
Further to this point, I still wonder why the papers didn't hang LCG and MS for selling 1,000s of shares on the morning of the Gate Gourmet walkout.
A shocking conflict of interests I think!!!
Pension Trustee tells pilots not to ask difficult questions during the cabin crew pension briefings. BA's management is rotten to the core.
Further to this point, I still wonder why the papers didn't hang LCG and MS for selling 1,000s of shares on the morning of the Gate Gourmet walkout.
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Hi BA Beancounter .
I haven't got time now to sort through the accounts ( though I will post the evidence in the next few dates) .
There is no need for doubt though.
The figures I do recall are ;
BA has £11 and a half billion of fixed assets on the balance sheet.
Return on investment is currently 10.25%
Basically; my quote of "2.4billion of assets not used for operational purposes" is taken from a presentation by a very respected accountant at the BALPA pension meeting. Others may be able to offer you a better description.
As I said BA can afford to pay.
These aren't my words, but I think they are appropriate "The company's pension proposal is the final straw for me. Not only is it a poor offer, but it has been deviously designed to CON the majority into thinking it is not too bad. I find this so immoral, and if they are happy to do this to their employees, they are presumably happy to shaft their customers too."
I haven't got time now to sort through the accounts ( though I will post the evidence in the next few dates) .
There is no need for doubt though.
The figures I do recall are ;
BA has £11 and a half billion of fixed assets on the balance sheet.
Return on investment is currently 10.25%
Basically; my quote of "2.4billion of assets not used for operational purposes" is taken from a presentation by a very respected accountant at the BALPA pension meeting. Others may be able to offer you a better description.
As I said BA can afford to pay.
These aren't my words, but I think they are appropriate "The company's pension proposal is the final straw for me. Not only is it a poor offer, but it has been deviously designed to CON the majority into thinking it is not too bad. I find this so immoral, and if they are happy to do this to their employees, they are presumably happy to shaft their customers too."
Last edited by Shuttleworth; 8th Apr 2006 at 22:38.
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These figures are all very well but once again our masters 'the shareholders' have been forgotten. There is no way that they will sanction any large injection of cash without staff penalties.
Paxing All Over The World
Another company has taken a bold step to repair it's pension plan.
BBC Compass sells its retail business
Catering giant Compass has agreed to sell its Upper Crust to Moto retail business for £1.82bn ($3.2bn).
The unit, which operates outlets across railway stations and airports, and runs motorway service stations, is being split and sold to two separate firms.
Private equity group EQT Partners is to buy the airports and railway business, while Macquarie Bank is taking over the Moto motorway service station arm.
Compass first unveiled plans to sell the units last autumn.
It said it planned to return £500m from the sale proceeds to shareholders, and make an additional £275m contribution to its pension plan.
Here is a company that has sold off assests to both return cash to shareholders and to pay into it's pension fund. These examples of companies that are 'doing the decent thing' should be noted. It's clear from the article that the pension fund is not the sole reason for the action but an important one.
BBC Compass sells its retail business
Catering giant Compass has agreed to sell its Upper Crust to Moto retail business for £1.82bn ($3.2bn).
The unit, which operates outlets across railway stations and airports, and runs motorway service stations, is being split and sold to two separate firms.
Private equity group EQT Partners is to buy the airports and railway business, while Macquarie Bank is taking over the Moto motorway service station arm.
Compass first unveiled plans to sell the units last autumn.
It said it planned to return £500m from the sale proceeds to shareholders, and make an additional £275m contribution to its pension plan.
Here is a company that has sold off assests to both return cash to shareholders and to pay into it's pension fund. These examples of companies that are 'doing the decent thing' should be noted. It's clear from the article that the pension fund is not the sole reason for the action but an important one.
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I am a little suprised that no-one has made any comments with regard to weekend observations in 'the Business and the Observer'. Once again it was alligned with an interview with WW, it quoted BA as no 1 in the FTSE pension debt league and not for the first time have I seen the city advise BA to go into administration effectively ending the pension problem once and for all with no recourse by us potential pensioners other than the courts. The other point was that it stated that the Wheel had an outstanding loan debt of 90 millions, yet we are told it sold for 60 millions, thus a lose of 30 millioms. As many of you state how many sets of books do BA run?
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WW has noted among other things the success of Ryanair's use of contractor-pilots. Rumour has it that BA are in discussion with several of the pilot crewing agencies of the type such as Parc about replacing ALL BA pilot contracts with contract pilots on relatively short term assignments that are renewed at BA's whim.
To get to this desired end state BA are looking at the meltdown option of closing "existing BA" and starting again with a clean sheet. Existing pension obligations would be met by some kind of rights issue that then morphed into shares in the "new", un-pension-encumbered BA. This route would appeal to the city as it "solves" the pension issue once and for all and "liberates the value" in BA by stealing the pilots' pension rights.
WW believes this would trigger a rise in contractor-style employment across the UK industry, to the great benefit of employers and disbenefit of pilots, long an ambition of a man who has become a turncoat to his own profession and who routinely describes professional aviation as "tedium with a view".
To get to this desired end state BA are looking at the meltdown option of closing "existing BA" and starting again with a clean sheet. Existing pension obligations would be met by some kind of rights issue that then morphed into shares in the "new", un-pension-encumbered BA. This route would appeal to the city as it "solves" the pension issue once and for all and "liberates the value" in BA by stealing the pilots' pension rights.
WW believes this would trigger a rise in contractor-style employment across the UK industry, to the great benefit of employers and disbenefit of pilots, long an ambition of a man who has become a turncoat to his own profession and who routinely describes professional aviation as "tedium with a view".
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Yes, as I've said before on this thread there are plenty of us waiting in the wings for BA2.com.
It would also sort out the SH competition as contract for BA2 would likely be more popular than Ryanair etc. Take the offer and get on with your lives!
It would also sort out the SH competition as contract for BA2 would likely be more popular than Ryanair etc. Take the offer and get on with your lives!
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Lookout, tide of reality coming.
1) "WW has noted...". Where? To you? Link please.
2) "Close existing BA....". Just a shame that would put them all in jail.
3) "Replace all BA pilot contracts...". Yup, easy to replace 3100 pilots.Who would train them? Who would insure them? Do you really think Easy/RYR would just let their pilots wander off? Do you think the BAA will let those slots sit unused for 12 months whilst BA2 gets going?
All for a good discussion about this but lets keep it real (ie BA can pay, don't want to and where do we go from here?)
1) "WW has noted...". Where? To you? Link please.
2) "Close existing BA....". Just a shame that would put them all in jail.
3) "Replace all BA pilot contracts...". Yup, easy to replace 3100 pilots.Who would train them? Who would insure them? Do you really think Easy/RYR would just let their pilots wander off? Do you think the BAA will let those slots sit unused for 12 months whilst BA2 gets going?
All for a good discussion about this but lets keep it real (ie BA can pay, don't want to and where do we go from here?)
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52049er - I think the BA pilot contract issue relates to if BA2.com ever happened - and I don't think it will (IMHO) - is that Crews will be left with very few, if anywhere else to go and there you have it, most will gnash their teeth and have little option. But as I say, this will not happen so relax.
HZ123 - seems like you've picked up on several good points. I was discussinmg that BA Eye only last week whilst in YYZ, I heard the same rumours from a London Tourist Board official!!!
HZ123 - seems like you've picked up on several good points. I was discussinmg that BA Eye only last week whilst in YYZ, I heard the same rumours from a London Tourist Board official!!!
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Unfortunately all this talk of the london eye is rubbish too.
Tussauds paid BA £95m and in return BA wrote off the £175m debt it was owed from the Eye.
This debt was built from £48m that BA loaned the Eye to get up and running and interest on the loan at 25%. Seeing as this interest was eating up all the profits it was a smart move to take the £95m and run.
As for BA closing and restarting - dream on
Tussauds paid BA £95m and in return BA wrote off the £175m debt it was owed from the Eye.
This debt was built from £48m that BA loaned the Eye to get up and running and interest on the loan at 25%. Seeing as this interest was eating up all the profits it was a smart move to take the £95m and run.
As for BA closing and restarting - dream on
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Fly747 - how many years are you going to sit waiting for BA2.com to start? How about getting off your backside and applying for a job if you want to join BA? Lack of drive holding you back?
Rant over!
Rant over!
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Who's flying the plane? Well Mr US Government employee, we don't know. We think it's a couple of contract workers who were engaged for this flight to New York on a one off call out just for today. Captain Al and First Officer Kyder.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, right.
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Get real folks.. You cannot shut down an airline and restart it on a whim. You have to go bust first. BA is one of the most profitable legacy carriers in the world. 
You cannot fire anyone and rehire another to do the same job.
Remember, like it or not, BA T&C's go, others will suffer.
If you want to work for BA in any incarnation get real and apply at www.BA.com
You cannot fire anyone and rehire another to do the same job.
Remember, like it or not, BA T&C's go, others will suffer.
If you want to work for BA in any incarnation get real and apply at www.BA.com