Jet vs Prop hours
BA have taken a fair number of ex-FlyBE Dash pilots of both older and younger persuasions so I don't think it's fair to say there is prejudice. Perhaps, as I think someone commented earlier, when recruitment is low jet hrs will be a first filter but times appear to be good at the moment.
Is a single five-hour leg, using only the "automatics", as it is called over there, more valuable experience to your next Chief Pilot/Fleet Training Captain, than five short legs in an old aircraft doing LOC and ILS approaches in gusty crosswinds?
How do the "automatics" make somebody a better pilot?
How do the "automatics" make somebody a better pilot?
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Whilst I agree with your statements on breaking into the jet jobs and how hard it is I would just like to say that I think you might find that there's more to a jet jock than you're giving him credit for. Have flown both turbo props (DHC-5 Buffalo, MAUW 21000kg's) and heavy jet and I think you'll struggle more with the transition from prop to jet then from jet back to prop. ALL the people I work with have come through the hard way and worked through the mill to get where they are! That doesn't mean we liked it but we did it. Got no time for people who've bought there way into there jobs or companies that employ them. I'm a firm believer that you keep applying the job will come. Good luck and Merry Christmas!!
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@ Ignition Override
I see what you mean, IO, but, the S2000 is systemwise probaly quiet similar to an Airbus, or more like the Boeing philosophy. We do exactly the same operation and use the same equipment like the jets, i.e fully integrated FMC with augmented fuel management, lateral and vertical automatic path-profiles, speed management, FADEC, Flex T/O etc. We don't have a A/T, ok (VEEEEEERY difficult to manage an A/T) and we are not CAT III certified (also VEEEEEERY difficult to monitor the aircraft landing automatically)
INGWE:
It's just the weight whats BEHIND the cockpit door that differs.
So WHAT is the big thing behind? Of course there's more to fly a Jet than just that, but it's also more behind a flying a Prop than just handling a V1 cut. Do you think captaincy is only related to flying skills? These times are over, thank god. It's resource management, situation awareness, communication skills, system knowledge, thinking ahead and EXPERIENCE, allways EXPERIENCE.
Your statement about the transition from TP to Jet or v.v. is, with all my respect, wrong. By coincidence I am also a Line Trainer and in the past we had 5 guys coming from the MD80's series and the DC10. We had to terminate training with two of them, because they were not able to adapt quick enough to the integrated glass cockpit or "EFIS" philosophy. Another problem was handling the "small" high performance aircraft in and out of CAT C airports like LCY, ELB etc. Flying TP is not only gliding down a 3 degree path until touchdown, it's hot, high and short rwy operation, it's EFCOP handling, visual and non precision procedures.
All I want to say is, that it is DIFFERENT, ok, but if somebody shows you how to do it, its doable, isn't it? The magic word is called Typerating right?
I see what you mean, IO, but, the S2000 is systemwise probaly quiet similar to an Airbus, or more like the Boeing philosophy. We do exactly the same operation and use the same equipment like the jets, i.e fully integrated FMC with augmented fuel management, lateral and vertical automatic path-profiles, speed management, FADEC, Flex T/O etc. We don't have a A/T, ok (VEEEEEERY difficult to manage an A/T) and we are not CAT III certified (also VEEEEEERY difficult to monitor the aircraft landing automatically)
INGWE:
It's just the weight whats BEHIND the cockpit door that differs.
So WHAT is the big thing behind? Of course there's more to fly a Jet than just that, but it's also more behind a flying a Prop than just handling a V1 cut. Do you think captaincy is only related to flying skills? These times are over, thank god. It's resource management, situation awareness, communication skills, system knowledge, thinking ahead and EXPERIENCE, allways EXPERIENCE.
Your statement about the transition from TP to Jet or v.v. is, with all my respect, wrong. By coincidence I am also a Line Trainer and in the past we had 5 guys coming from the MD80's series and the DC10. We had to terminate training with two of them, because they were not able to adapt quick enough to the integrated glass cockpit or "EFIS" philosophy. Another problem was handling the "small" high performance aircraft in and out of CAT C airports like LCY, ELB etc. Flying TP is not only gliding down a 3 degree path until touchdown, it's hot, high and short rwy operation, it's EFCOP handling, visual and non precision procedures.
All I want to say is, that it is DIFFERENT, ok, but if somebody shows you how to do it, its doable, isn't it? The magic word is called Typerating right?
Last edited by sidestickhumper; 25th Dec 2005 at 13:53.
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Whats the big thing behind? Speed and weight for a start. Multiply the two to get momentum. A jet is not a prop and if you don't manage the energy early there's no way to get rid of it later, especially if you're in a lightish jet with thermal anti ice causing a high idle setting above your normal approach idle. The big jets operate at a whole new level of aerodynamic performance too. A 744 at max weight will leave you about 10-15 knots of airspeed to fly in whilst cleaning up in an aircraft that wallows and is highly G sensitive. Yank the controls and watch the barbers pole rise like a shot - low speed buffet is not a nice place to be on one of those things.
I think you are confusing the issue with your reference to the MD80/DC10 convertees. Struggling to convert to an EFIS environment has nothing to do with the ability to fly a jet or a prop. There are plenty of people who've struggled with converting from a 737-200 to an A320 as well, doesn't mean they can't fly. You'll find you also get plenty of non-precision approaches in the jets as well, into some surprising places like FRA and JFK or DME. Trying to pole a heavy jet into one of these places whilst contending some pretty shocking ATC, some of the worlds busiest airspace and interesting Russian altimetry is rather more demanding than you might imagine and requires a higher degree of accuracy than on a light aircraft because if you're tracking at the 5 degree limit of the NDB you won't be able to pole it over to the runway when you go visual.
I think you are confusing the issue with your reference to the MD80/DC10 convertees. Struggling to convert to an EFIS environment has nothing to do with the ability to fly a jet or a prop. There are plenty of people who've struggled with converting from a 737-200 to an A320 as well, doesn't mean they can't fly. You'll find you also get plenty of non-precision approaches in the jets as well, into some surprising places like FRA and JFK or DME. Trying to pole a heavy jet into one of these places whilst contending some pretty shocking ATC, some of the worlds busiest airspace and interesting Russian altimetry is rather more demanding than you might imagine and requires a higher degree of accuracy than on a light aircraft because if you're tracking at the 5 degree limit of the NDB you won't be able to pole it over to the runway when you go visual.
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Ok, ehhhm, great, thanks..
What do you want to say with your statement? Did you learned it by yourself or did somebody showed you how to do that? I guess you also made a TR on the type you are flying on or are you a natural born Pilot? Great, you made it, you learned it, congratulation!! Sorry, I don't want to be sarcastic.
Do you want to warn us TP-jocks not to try to touch a heavy Jet? Or do you even suggest that experience in handling a TP is contraproductive in relation to change to a jet? If yes, we are probably coming closer to my question at the beginning of my thread.
Regarding your answer to the convertees MD80/ DC10, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN, it has nothing to do with flying skills, we are talking about the same thing, mate
No, serious, I say it again: IT IS DIFFERENT TO FLY TP THAN JETS, i fully agree, but it's a question of LEARNING TO DO. Nobody can expect to change from a S2000 captain position into a 747 Captain operation. Of course you have to learn it first and going up the step by starting as a F/O again, that's why it has to be lke that...
So, still not satisfying for me, sorry. Hey, it's money we are talking about, not speed times weight=momentum. Is a 20 year old low hours chap with a self sponsored TR on the 747 more qualified to handle "momentum" than a guy with 6500 hours on a TP? Obviously he is, I just want to know why.
I have a guess, it's MONEY, please tell me I'm wrong, because if I'm right, we are all going the wrong way, buddy...
What do you want to say with your statement? Did you learned it by yourself or did somebody showed you how to do that? I guess you also made a TR on the type you are flying on or are you a natural born Pilot? Great, you made it, you learned it, congratulation!! Sorry, I don't want to be sarcastic.
Do you want to warn us TP-jocks not to try to touch a heavy Jet? Or do you even suggest that experience in handling a TP is contraproductive in relation to change to a jet? If yes, we are probably coming closer to my question at the beginning of my thread.
Regarding your answer to the convertees MD80/ DC10, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN, it has nothing to do with flying skills, we are talking about the same thing, mate
No, serious, I say it again: IT IS DIFFERENT TO FLY TP THAN JETS, i fully agree, but it's a question of LEARNING TO DO. Nobody can expect to change from a S2000 captain position into a 747 Captain operation. Of course you have to learn it first and going up the step by starting as a F/O again, that's why it has to be lke that...
So, still not satisfying for me, sorry. Hey, it's money we are talking about, not speed times weight=momentum. Is a 20 year old low hours chap with a self sponsored TR on the 747 more qualified to handle "momentum" than a guy with 6500 hours on a TP? Obviously he is, I just want to know why.
I have a guess, it's MONEY, please tell me I'm wrong, because if I'm right, we are all going the wrong way, buddy...
Last edited by sidestickhumper; 25th Dec 2005 at 15:25.
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Sidestickhumper,
It's got nothing to do with 200 vs. 6500 hrs. - he will not need 6500 hrs for the job he's being hired to do. A 200 hr. guy is on the lower limit of the band (and a lot of them prefer - say - 1500 hrs). But give him 1500 hrs., just for general experience & getting used to the whole spatial orientation thingy, and he/she will be allright.
So our 6500 hrs guy is - believe it or not - overqualified. Not good for command gradient issues, and might take more of an "un-learning curve" than a learning curve to do. Since the latter is always steeper than the former (for most people), it really is a no-brainer from the training & fltops department point of view.
That being said, I recently transitioned from TPs to jets (ok, only a 73, but still
) and I must say - it's more than doable. Fair 'nuff, you need to learn to fly a different set of numbers, but I refuse to believe that people cannot adapt to flying a 3 deg. + 10 NM rather than 3 deg. profile. The command qualities needed are not that much different, crew's a bit larger, company pressures grow, and passenger behaviour turns for the worse. OK, so you have to grow an extra layer of leather and be more ready to show the company and punters that this crew is not the one they want to take on at this particular time in their lives.
I take it you have a lot of TP experience as captain - well, if interested, drop me a PM. You never know...
Empty
It's got nothing to do with 200 vs. 6500 hrs. - he will not need 6500 hrs for the job he's being hired to do. A 200 hr. guy is on the lower limit of the band (and a lot of them prefer - say - 1500 hrs). But give him 1500 hrs., just for general experience & getting used to the whole spatial orientation thingy, and he/she will be allright.
So our 6500 hrs guy is - believe it or not - overqualified. Not good for command gradient issues, and might take more of an "un-learning curve" than a learning curve to do. Since the latter is always steeper than the former (for most people), it really is a no-brainer from the training & fltops department point of view.
That being said, I recently transitioned from TPs to jets (ok, only a 73, but still
) and I must say - it's more than doable. Fair 'nuff, you need to learn to fly a different set of numbers, but I refuse to believe that people cannot adapt to flying a 3 deg. + 10 NM rather than 3 deg. profile. The command qualities needed are not that much different, crew's a bit larger, company pressures grow, and passenger behaviour turns for the worse. OK, so you have to grow an extra layer of leather and be more ready to show the company and punters that this crew is not the one they want to take on at this particular time in their lives.I take it you have a lot of TP experience as captain - well, if interested, drop me a PM. You never know...
Empty
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I'll keep this quick. (I hope i'm not rude).
Flown props into 600m hot and high (Sudan/Kenya/SADC region at max landing) and heavy jets non-precission in bad weather, give me the prop any day. We're not arguing about the nature of the job and who's better we're arguing over what the companies want (and most likely the insurance!). We have to accept it and adapt. Like it or not. Ask yourself why am I not getting the interviews? Are you over qualified as EP sujests? Don't like it but we have to survive.
Flown props into 600m hot and high (Sudan/Kenya/SADC region at max landing) and heavy jets non-precission in bad weather, give me the prop any day. We're not arguing about the nature of the job and who's better we're arguing over what the companies want (and most likely the insurance!). We have to accept it and adapt. Like it or not. Ask yourself why am I not getting the interviews? Are you over qualified as EP sujests? Don't like it but we have to survive.
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Hi Empty
thanks for your honest and direct answer, I think, this comes as close to my question as it gets.
Just sent you a PM
@Ingwe
what do you mean by survive? You? Me? The company? The self sponsored TR guys? Please specify...
Cheers
Side
thanks for your honest and direct answer, I think, this comes as close to my question as it gets.
Just sent you a PM
@Ingwe
what do you mean by survive? You? Me? The company? The self sponsored TR guys? Please specify...
Cheers
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Survive, as in keep on living, do what ever needs to be done to pay the bills. Seems to me that people are more interested in what they fly and not in the flying and enjoying the job. Think you've got me wrong I'm not advocating buying a rating I'm saying the jobs are there you have to keep looking.
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If you see your fortune lies in the jet environment, then pay as well. Its a fairly easy calculation to see the return of investment. If you are not willing to pay, then there's plenty of guys who will.
Perhaps you could have made a similar step 5 years ago, but never thought your career would end up being like this. So here you are, with all your hours which mean nothing anymore as soon as they go over 1500. Its sad, but you missed the boat a couple years back to transition and only improve the situation. Now you'll have to take a step back, eat some dirt to join the fast track.
But I see your problem and there's no way to end up better at this stage then any boy or girl who just started flying the props 3 years ago.
Good luck.
Perhaps you could have made a similar step 5 years ago, but never thought your career would end up being like this. So here you are, with all your hours which mean nothing anymore as soon as they go over 1500. Its sad, but you missed the boat a couple years back to transition and only improve the situation. Now you'll have to take a step back, eat some dirt to join the fast track.
But I see your problem and there's no way to end up better at this stage then any boy or girl who just started flying the props 3 years ago.
Good luck.
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@ klink
altough I don't like your tone it seems that I have to bitterly agree with you.
But I will not, I repeat, NOT pay for my rating. I'm ready to enter a bond, also other payback configuration as I'm sure there are opportunities or they will come. My plans are to try 2006/7 and, if no success, fading out step by step...
altough I don't like your tone it seems that I have to bitterly agree with you.
But I will not, I repeat, NOT pay for my rating. I'm ready to enter a bond, also other payback configuration as I'm sure there are opportunities or they will come. My plans are to try 2006/7 and, if no success, fading out step by step...
Last edited by sidestickhumper; 25th Dec 2005 at 22:33.
