BA DEP Payscale/pension
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sunny East Sussex
Age: 49
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA DEP Payscale/pension
Having recently been thrown into BAs DEP pool, I have a couple of queries, if you will indulge me:
1. Can anyone post a link to the the detailed DEP payscale. I know it is on a recent thread, but am unable to locate it.
2. Are BALPA still trying to increase the company pension contribution for newbies?
3. Recently, someone posted that their pension pot would only give them a @£10,000/yr pension. I have just used a pension calc, & based on 12% + 5%, I came up with@£40,000+£6000 state pension. Am I doing my sums wrong?
Hoping for some helpful replies, but awaiting some PPrune wit and sarcasm!!!
1. Can anyone post a link to the the detailed DEP payscale. I know it is on a recent thread, but am unable to locate it.
2. Are BALPA still trying to increase the company pension contribution for newbies?
3. Recently, someone posted that their pension pot would only give them a @£10,000/yr pension. I have just used a pension calc, & based on 12% + 5%, I came up with@£40,000+£6000 state pension. Am I doing my sums wrong?
Hoping for some helpful replies, but awaiting some PPrune wit and sarcasm!!!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Congratulations on your efforts P-T and welcome!
1. The BA members area of the BALPA forum has detailed payscales. Expect to start on approximately £55K going up to £75k as a 7 year longhaul F/O.
2. BA BALPA is suffering from a majority of "I'm all right Jack" members, so don't expect any improvement in the pension. BUT you can roll around laughing when, in a few years time, you are asked to go out on strike to keep the final salary pension scheme of those selfish individuals!!!!
3. I'm sure your sums are right - having passed the numeracy test.
1. The BA members area of the BALPA forum has detailed payscales. Expect to start on approximately £55K going up to £75k as a 7 year longhaul F/O.
2. BA BALPA is suffering from a majority of "I'm all right Jack" members, so don't expect any improvement in the pension. BUT you can roll around laughing when, in a few years time, you are asked to go out on strike to keep the final salary pension scheme of those selfish individuals!!!!
3. I'm sure your sums are right - having passed the numeracy test.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PTG
Well done on your sucessful completion of BA selection! I know some good people who didn't get that far, so it was not easy.
I am not a great expert having only recently joined BA but these questions are of importance, so here's what I can tell you...
1. look at ppjn.com it covers BA DEP pay as well as rest of industry. The annual increments are about £2k per year on top of that.
2. Balpa have stated somewhere in the (very)small print that they want increased contributions for BARP members (British Airways Retirement Plan) ie.all joiners post April 2003. But bear in mind that BARP guys are all new joiners to BA (150 bods), and Balpa's priority is the final salary scheme (NAPS) for 3000 bods, so where would you guess BARP comes on the Balpa agenda? Also note that less than 50% of Balpa members supported the final salary scheme for new joiners, so what's the chance of them voting for better contributions for BARP....
3. The actual figures are 7% + 5% of pensionable pay, pensionable pay being 75% of salary. Try crunching the numbers again and see what you come up with. Watson Wyatt, BA appointed administrator/actuary for the scheme have quoted me £7,500 annual pension after over 20 years service. State pension on top of that of course. Can't wait for that luxury retirement.
What I believe it all means is that you will have to put aside a serious chunk of your pay to have a liveable pension on retirement, or get lucky at the horses. The pay ain't bad so get saving!
Good luck
Barney
Well done on your sucessful completion of BA selection! I know some good people who didn't get that far, so it was not easy.
I am not a great expert having only recently joined BA but these questions are of importance, so here's what I can tell you...
1. look at ppjn.com it covers BA DEP pay as well as rest of industry. The annual increments are about £2k per year on top of that.
2. Balpa have stated somewhere in the (very)small print that they want increased contributions for BARP members (British Airways Retirement Plan) ie.all joiners post April 2003. But bear in mind that BARP guys are all new joiners to BA (150 bods), and Balpa's priority is the final salary scheme (NAPS) for 3000 bods, so where would you guess BARP comes on the Balpa agenda? Also note that less than 50% of Balpa members supported the final salary scheme for new joiners, so what's the chance of them voting for better contributions for BARP....
3. The actual figures are 7% + 5% of pensionable pay, pensionable pay being 75% of salary. Try crunching the numbers again and see what you come up with. Watson Wyatt, BA appointed administrator/actuary for the scheme have quoted me £7,500 annual pension after over 20 years service. State pension on top of that of course. Can't wait for that luxury retirement.
What I believe it all means is that you will have to put aside a serious chunk of your pay to have a liveable pension on retirement, or get lucky at the horses. The pay ain't bad so get saving!
Good luck
Barney
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Barney - your 3rd point is especially sad when it is compared to the £100+k pa pensions enjoyed by those crystalized members of APS - many of whom now fly for SIA and would love to tell you all about their pensions next time you're in SIN!!!
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hot Wings
Still flying with some crysatalized APS guys now...the tax Gordon Brown wants to take out of their £1.5 m+ pension fund is more than my pension fund is worth in total! Still, I have my youth!
Barney
Still flying with some crysatalized APS guys now...the tax Gordon Brown wants to take out of their £1.5 m+ pension fund is more than my pension fund is worth in total! Still, I have my youth!
Barney
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sunny East Sussex
Age: 49
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do the people on FSS pensions not realise there will come a time when the new kids will be in the majority? I wonder what will happen to their pensions then at the BALPA vote?
I feel a bit of back scratching is in order here. Take a teeny cut in your huge FSS pension to help the new guys, who may then help you down the line to fight for your retirement.
I reckon a lot of people are joining with a view that things will improve. I have a military pension to top up mine, but a lot don't have that luxury. If the pension doesnt get better ............., well VS are expanding and paying 15% of basic.............. That may be quite tempting to some. Still, on the bright side, it would improve my time to LHS if people started leaving!
Anyway, I still can't wait to start. Sunday morning in the US is SO much more appealing than midweek in Basrah!
I feel a bit of back scratching is in order here. Take a teeny cut in your huge FSS pension to help the new guys, who may then help you down the line to fight for your retirement.
I reckon a lot of people are joining with a view that things will improve. I have a military pension to top up mine, but a lot don't have that luxury. If the pension doesnt get better ............., well VS are expanding and paying 15% of basic.............. That may be quite tempting to some. Still, on the bright side, it would improve my time to LHS if people started leaving!
Anyway, I still can't wait to start. Sunday morning in the US is SO much more appealing than midweek in Basrah!
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take a teeny cut in your huge FSS pension to help the new guys, who may then help you down the line to fight for your retirement.
Coming into BA with that sort of attitude is not going to endear you to your new colleagues. You may quickly find yourself pigeonholed into the 'whinging ex-mil FO' bracket like so many others.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sunny East Sussex
Age: 49
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ouch! Not been pidgeon holed that quickly before.
I totally agree that it is better to help all, and I don't agree with taking away a contractual pension from someone who has worked for it. I sincerely hope the FSS remains for those who joined with it as part of their package. As you say, it is deferred pay, so you have already "earned" it.
We were told at interview that all changes had to come from the existing pot, so I was just exploring a more pilot agreed approach to the issue.
As I said earlier, I have an existing pension, so I am probably better off than most. I think the worst hit will be the airline crossovers from LCC's, with little pension, and large debts. I don't think this is a mil/civvie issue here.
Over the moon to be in, looking forward to flying, just trying to get a handle on some of the issues. It may take me a while to get used to the "Office Politics", and I hope I haven't offended by exploring possibilities.
I totally agree that it is better to help all, and I don't agree with taking away a contractual pension from someone who has worked for it. I sincerely hope the FSS remains for those who joined with it as part of their package. As you say, it is deferred pay, so you have already "earned" it.
We were told at interview that all changes had to come from the existing pot, so I was just exploring a more pilot agreed approach to the issue.
As I said earlier, I have an existing pension, so I am probably better off than most. I think the worst hit will be the airline crossovers from LCC's, with little pension, and large debts. I don't think this is a mil/civvie issue here.
Over the moon to be in, looking forward to flying, just trying to get a handle on some of the issues. It may take me a while to get used to the "Office Politics", and I hope I haven't offended by exploring possibilities.
Last edited by P-T-Gamekeeper; 5th Oct 2005 at 04:42.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do the people on FSS pensions not realise there will come a time when the new kids will be in the majority?
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Balpa have stated somewhere in the (very)small print that they want increased contributions for BARP members (British Airways Retirement Plan) ie.all joiners post April 2003. But bear in mind that BARP guys are all new joiners to BA (150 bods), and Balpa's priority is the final salary scheme (NAPS) for 3000 bods, so where would you guess BARP comes on the Balpa agenda?
As for BA, IF I'm ever fortunate enough to have a choice of where to work next AND one of those places is BA, the pension is a big influence on the decision making. VS would be lovely though ....
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We were told at interview that all changes had to come from the existing pot...
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA's style of management:
Rule#1: Know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
Rule#2: Be penny wise and pound foolish.
Rule#3: I will protect my bonus. I will protect my bonus. I will protect my bonus.......
Rule#1: Know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
Rule#2: Be penny wise and pound foolish.
Rule#3: I will protect my bonus. I will protect my bonus. I will protect my bonus.......
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ether
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The pension for new joiners is appalling. If you join BA in your thirties the projections show around 10k per year at 55.
But, that pension pot is yours to take with you if you change companies. With no bonding and a poor pension all that ties you is seniority and the "BA Way".
Without fleet expansion you may achieve a long haul command a few years before you retire. Then, you will be bottom of the Captains seniority list.
I wonder how many new starters are already wondering where they will take their 777/747 experience?
But, that pension pot is yours to take with you if you change companies. With no bonding and a poor pension all that ties you is seniority and the "BA Way".
Without fleet expansion you may achieve a long haul command a few years before you retire. Then, you will be bottom of the Captains seniority list.
I wonder how many new starters are already wondering where they will take their 777/747 experience?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To illustrate the pension contributions a little bit:
BA for the FSS spends about 7 pounds per head (company) to keep it alive
easy with their 7% contribution of basic spends 37pence per head.
No wonder they wanted to get rid of it?
Can I just say it is very shortsighted of BALPA and BA to assume that the new BARP will not increase in priority very soon, and I am quite happy to see that members in BALPA do see it.
Shame it got voted out though, would have been a huge incentive to many of us.
SZ
BA for the FSS spends about 7 pounds per head (company) to keep it alive
easy with their 7% contribution of basic spends 37pence per head.
No wonder they wanted to get rid of it?
Can I just say it is very shortsighted of BALPA and BA to assume that the new BARP will not increase in priority very soon, and I am quite happy to see that members in BALPA do see it.
Shame it got voted out though, would have been a huge incentive to many of us.
SZ
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a BA newbie I am also looking closely at the pension scheme. Having just received my contract with the pension breakdown within I first laughed at the address of 'Terra Firma' and then got down to reading it.
As with P.T.Gamekeeper I come into BA with an active pension which rose tints my outlook a little. The rest I am intending to take to a finacial advisor to see what additional voluntary contributions could be made.
Unfortunately poor pension deals seem to be the current beast. I would not even comtemplate culling an established system to fund the pensions of those younger to the company. Imagine the animosity that would generate. The pension details were laid out clearly at the interview and therefore comes as no surprise. I, personally, will be AVC'ing in order to leave with a decent living.
Start saving boys and girls, the wage is good in comparison to your average office worker! (Granted they didn't have to mortgage their first newborns soul to pay for the licence
)
Remember, the light at the end of the tunnel could well be an oncoming train.
As with P.T.Gamekeeper I come into BA with an active pension which rose tints my outlook a little. The rest I am intending to take to a finacial advisor to see what additional voluntary contributions could be made.
Unfortunately poor pension deals seem to be the current beast. I would not even comtemplate culling an established system to fund the pensions of those younger to the company. Imagine the animosity that would generate. The pension details were laid out clearly at the interview and therefore comes as no surprise. I, personally, will be AVC'ing in order to leave with a decent living.
Start saving boys and girls, the wage is good in comparison to your average office worker! (Granted they didn't have to mortgage their first newborns soul to pay for the licence
)Remember, the light at the end of the tunnel could well be an oncoming train.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Abroad
Posts: 520
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Problem is, too many of you new guys are joining with these poor terms and conditions. Thus , BA see no reason to change it. Other groups of staff walk out at the drop of a hat, anf subsequently are treated with kid gloves and have cushy T's and C's. There is a moral in there somewhere.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maxy101, I couldn't agree more mate, but unfortunately look around and see the constant degradation of T's & C's.
The helicopter world is even worse with newbie pilots cavassing operators to work for free for experience!!!!!
I hope, along with all professional pilots, that this is not the top of some slippery slope. However there is a pool of less experienced pilots out there who are working for smaller outfits on far worse pay and T's & C's who would jump across at the drop of a hat and the management know that. O'Leary has proven that crews don't need to be happy when they are correctly bullied and threatened.
The helicopter world is even worse with newbie pilots cavassing operators to work for free for experience!!!!!
I hope, along with all professional pilots, that this is not the top of some slippery slope. However there is a pool of less experienced pilots out there who are working for smaller outfits on far worse pay and T's & C's who would jump across at the drop of a hat and the management know that. O'Leary has proven that crews don't need to be happy when they are correctly bullied and threatened.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was beginning to think I was the only person who thought the pension was a poor deal. When I joined BA I did so intent on not becoming a moaning Nigel. This pension issue is not a moan it's down right rude for BA to expect pilots (or others) to retire on so little, and the figure we are talking about is £9K at todays money.
BA had the best pension deal in the industry and I want those on NAPS and APS to continue on the scheme they joined up on. I know that they are concerned for their future pensions. BA has to pay a dividend one day and it is looking for a big cost saving somewhere.
It doesn't make BARP'ers moaners to raise this issue. It is surely more serious that I am going to have to retire on £9K than a (N)APS retire on £50K rather than £60K should BA close (N)APS and introduce a hybrid scheme.
And BA did not make it clear what the pension deal was when I joined, 12% or 7% ? was the question at the time and no one had the answer or mentioned pensionable pay being 3/4 of basic, we certainly didn't have access to the pension planner. Basic maths would have resulted in the £9K answer admittedly. All I was told was that BARP was costing BA the same as (N)APS so I joined expecting a lesser version of what previously existed. This was patently untrue, NAPS contributions are 25% plus anything else the company props up the pension fund with.
Next week the BA publicity machine is going to publicly address the pension "problem". I think it is important that those in (N)APS hear the details of the solution that BA would most like them to accept. BARP. They will all be told they are doomed if they don't sacrifice their FSS. After all BA isn't making huge sums of money, passenger bookings aren't at record highs and stock markets aren't recovering!
Having said that BA is still the best company out there, thats why I joined, and that's how I want it to stay. BARP is a poor reflection on how BA management value the individuals they employ.
As for the future; I hear that WW plays golf with O'Leary. There is currently no voice specifically for BARP members. BALPA are fully supportive of our cause but expect it to be drowned out over the next few weeks. I think we need our own lobby, I'd like to set one up if anyone is interested.
BA had the best pension deal in the industry and I want those on NAPS and APS to continue on the scheme they joined up on. I know that they are concerned for their future pensions. BA has to pay a dividend one day and it is looking for a big cost saving somewhere.
It doesn't make BARP'ers moaners to raise this issue. It is surely more serious that I am going to have to retire on £9K than a (N)APS retire on £50K rather than £60K should BA close (N)APS and introduce a hybrid scheme.
And BA did not make it clear what the pension deal was when I joined, 12% or 7% ? was the question at the time and no one had the answer or mentioned pensionable pay being 3/4 of basic, we certainly didn't have access to the pension planner. Basic maths would have resulted in the £9K answer admittedly. All I was told was that BARP was costing BA the same as (N)APS so I joined expecting a lesser version of what previously existed. This was patently untrue, NAPS contributions are 25% plus anything else the company props up the pension fund with.
Next week the BA publicity machine is going to publicly address the pension "problem". I think it is important that those in (N)APS hear the details of the solution that BA would most like them to accept. BARP. They will all be told they are doomed if they don't sacrifice their FSS. After all BA isn't making huge sums of money, passenger bookings aren't at record highs and stock markets aren't recovering!
Having said that BA is still the best company out there, thats why I joined, and that's how I want it to stay. BARP is a poor reflection on how BA management value the individuals they employ.
As for the future; I hear that WW plays golf with O'Leary. There is currently no voice specifically for BARP members. BALPA are fully supportive of our cause but expect it to be drowned out over the next few weeks. I think we need our own lobby, I'd like to set one up if anyone is interested.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Desert but shortly to be HK!)
Age: 49
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just as a benchmark for you I work for a large bank in the city... my company pays in 10% of my salary a year to a pension fund (note it is not reduced to 75% of salary... how do BA get away with that!?!).
We also have some people on the old defined benefit schemes but they are now few and far between. My forecast pension is not too dissimilar to the £9-10k you quote. I have to make substantial additional voluntary contributions to have any hope of a comfortable retirement.
This is not a BA specific issue (apart from the greater % of people in the company on the old scheme)... this is systemic of the problems faced by an ageing population in the UK.
I hate to say it but if you want a final salary scheme now the only place you are likely to get it is in the public sector....
Oh yes you can also look forward to being taxed more in your retirement to pay for all the fat cat civil servants on their large final salary schemes.... the gap between people being screwed in the private sector and the huge latent liability of final salary pension in the public sector is growing everyday... who do you think is going to pay their pensions???.....oh well may as well go out blow it all on booze and fags and sod the long and happy retirement...
We also have some people on the old defined benefit schemes but they are now few and far between. My forecast pension is not too dissimilar to the £9-10k you quote. I have to make substantial additional voluntary contributions to have any hope of a comfortable retirement.
This is not a BA specific issue (apart from the greater % of people in the company on the old scheme)... this is systemic of the problems faced by an ageing population in the UK.
I hate to say it but if you want a final salary scheme now the only place you are likely to get it is in the public sector....
Oh yes you can also look forward to being taxed more in your retirement to pay for all the fat cat civil servants on their large final salary schemes.... the gap between people being screwed in the private sector and the huge latent liability of final salary pension in the public sector is growing everyday... who do you think is going to pay their pensions???.....oh well may as well go out blow it all on booze and fags and sod the long and happy retirement...