BA DEP Payscale/pension
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an example pls
Could anyone give an example of a NET monthly pension for a BA new joiner??.....say he will work for 30 years ending up on a 6000 pound net salary a month....how much would he get pensionwise??......and say another guy works for 15 years retiring on a 4000 pound net monthly salary.....how big is the the difference??
thanks!
tmr
thanks!
tmr
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Grass strip basher.
Yes I know. I am paying max AVC and the pension still isn't close to what a NAPS pension is. I agree that FSS for me is a pie in sky idea, however Britannia have relented and offer it after 5 years service (in theory), so it is possible. As for public sector pensions don't vote for Composite 12 or you can kiss goodbye to them aswell and work to 65+.
The question is why are BA etc unwilling to fund pensions at previous levels any more? During the 90's stocks did so well that companies didn't see the point of paying in. Then the bubble burst and everyone has had to play catch up. Having got used to low contributions the corporate world is reluctant to pay at previous levels and hope that we will all blame ourelves for living longer and retire poorer or top ourselves.
The World is a nastier place this century and all the corporations have imposed this massive pay cut and expect us to be grateful. The bottom line is that they make more profit.
As a long term strategy it won't work because if half the population in 35 years time is on the poverty line how can they make money? I propose a moderate pension contribution from BA, your Bank and all the others. The BA contribution is unrealistic, it needs to double and then for their benefit of having us off their liabilities when we go it should pay a premium. The deal is the opposite.
Note the decline in the credibility of trade unions as we all become corporate minded individuals and the suicidal logic with which we all justify our worsening terms and conditions. It is fear that has been engineered into the equation that makes us all bleet.
Yes I know. I am paying max AVC and the pension still isn't close to what a NAPS pension is. I agree that FSS for me is a pie in sky idea, however Britannia have relented and offer it after 5 years service (in theory), so it is possible. As for public sector pensions don't vote for Composite 12 or you can kiss goodbye to them aswell and work to 65+.
The question is why are BA etc unwilling to fund pensions at previous levels any more? During the 90's stocks did so well that companies didn't see the point of paying in. Then the bubble burst and everyone has had to play catch up. Having got used to low contributions the corporate world is reluctant to pay at previous levels and hope that we will all blame ourelves for living longer and retire poorer or top ourselves.
The World is a nastier place this century and all the corporations have imposed this massive pay cut and expect us to be grateful. The bottom line is that they make more profit.
As a long term strategy it won't work because if half the population in 35 years time is on the poverty line how can they make money? I propose a moderate pension contribution from BA, your Bank and all the others. The BA contribution is unrealistic, it needs to double and then for their benefit of having us off their liabilities when we go it should pay a premium. The deal is the opposite.
Note the decline in the credibility of trade unions as we all become corporate minded individuals and the suicidal logic with which we all justify our worsening terms and conditions. It is fear that has been engineered into the equation that makes us all bleet.
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Cavelino,
You have missed Flying Toms well presented point.
The new BA pension reflects the market rate. But, it is a sad reflection of where the industry and the UK economy is heading.
You have missed Flying Toms well presented point.
The new BA pension reflects the market rate. But, it is a sad reflection of where the industry and the UK economy is heading.
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Britannia have relented and offer it after 5 years service (in theory)
Never the less, isnt BA still a good and secure company to work for?
Isnt it possible with the salary you earn to invest your expendable income on other investments for the future?
Im sure thats what us mere mortal people do.
MAX
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I agree with Max,
The pension isn't what it was, FACT!
Theres no point in getting into a squablle about old boys paying for new boys, it just ain't going to happen.
The pension, as offered by BA at the moment is pretty poor, but BARP is the baseline. With a decent wage plus some judicious (sp???) investment that pension plan can be nicely bumped up. Plus that pension contributions can be position in your tax return for tax relief. I don't know what the max AVC is but I think you can push upto 17% of your wage before the tax man starts looking.
And, at the end of the day, if you don't like BARP, pull out. It's your choice and your money. We are all big boys being paid good money to make decisions. Use that process to invest in your future, not the shiny new sports car for today.
Helmet on, duck down, wait for flak.
The pension isn't what it was, FACT!
Theres no point in getting into a squablle about old boys paying for new boys, it just ain't going to happen.
The pension, as offered by BA at the moment is pretty poor, but BARP is the baseline. With a decent wage plus some judicious (sp???) investment that pension plan can be nicely bumped up. Plus that pension contributions can be position in your tax return for tax relief. I don't know what the max AVC is but I think you can push upto 17% of your wage before the tax man starts looking.
And, at the end of the day, if you don't like BARP, pull out. It's your choice and your money. We are all big boys being paid good money to make decisions. Use that process to invest in your future, not the shiny new sports car for today.
Helmet on, duck down, wait for flak.
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To those who are knocking newbie BA DEPs as whingers I guess you must be loving it to finally have a chance to vent your own frustrations at Nigels expense! Yes you have a valid point but what do you gain by dissing your industry colleagues?
Personally I find it embarrassing and sad that BA has sunk to the level where others in the industry laugh at us rather than use BA as a bargaining tool for improving their own T+Cs. When the industry leader sets such a low standard, others will follow - the downward spiral for pilot T+Cs continues, watch out yourselves!
whinge over, standing by for incoming...
Barney
Personally I find it embarrassing and sad that BA has sunk to the level where others in the industry laugh at us rather than use BA as a bargaining tool for improving their own T+Cs. When the industry leader sets such a low standard, others will follow - the downward spiral for pilot T+Cs continues, watch out yourselves!
whinge over, standing by for incoming...
Barney
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At least BALPA are standing up for pension rights. For themselves! From their website (last application date already passed though)
Vacancies at BALPA • Thursday, October 6, 2005
Current Vacancies
BALPA is the professional association for commercial airline pilots in the UK. Our membership is expanding and developing—and so are we. We aim to be a centre of excellence, providing high quality, value for money services to our members.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Principal Negotiator
BALPA is the Professional Association for commercial airline pilots in the UK. We have 8100 members, and this figure is growing monthly. We pride ourselves on giving our members the best advice and representation in the business, and we need an experienced industrial relations specialist to help us achieve this.
You will be part of a team of specialist negotiators whose job is to assist pilot representatives from specific airlines on industrial relations matters. You will advise and assist members on individual and collective issues such as pay and grievance, represent and negotiate on their behalf, and assist BALPA in the development of their business plans. You will need to build excellent relations with our members and airline management to achieve these aims.
You will need a good standard of education and ideally a minimum of five year's experience in a similar role. Demonstrable skills in handling complex negotiations and building and maintaining membership levels will also be essential.
We offer a salary of £35,000 - £40,000 p.a. a final salary pension scheme and company car benefit.
Download the full job description and person specification or email [email protected] quoting 'PN position' in the subject header.
The closing date for applications is 23 September 2005
Vacancies at BALPA • Thursday, October 6, 2005
Current Vacancies
BALPA is the professional association for commercial airline pilots in the UK. Our membership is expanding and developing—and so are we. We aim to be a centre of excellence, providing high quality, value for money services to our members.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Principal Negotiator
BALPA is the Professional Association for commercial airline pilots in the UK. We have 8100 members, and this figure is growing monthly. We pride ourselves on giving our members the best advice and representation in the business, and we need an experienced industrial relations specialist to help us achieve this.
You will be part of a team of specialist negotiators whose job is to assist pilot representatives from specific airlines on industrial relations matters. You will advise and assist members on individual and collective issues such as pay and grievance, represent and negotiate on their behalf, and assist BALPA in the development of their business plans. You will need to build excellent relations with our members and airline management to achieve these aims.
You will need a good standard of education and ideally a minimum of five year's experience in a similar role. Demonstrable skills in handling complex negotiations and building and maintaining membership levels will also be essential.
We offer a salary of £35,000 - £40,000 p.a. a final salary pension scheme and company car benefit.
Download the full job description and person specification or email [email protected] quoting 'PN position' in the subject header.
The closing date for applications is 23 September 2005
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There seems to be a little confusion as to the exact company contribution.
I thought it was 7%, with another 5% matched to your personal 5%. Is this so, or is it just 7% as stated by some?
12% + 5% PC for me, with a small lump sum from another pot, to retire at 60, works out for me at about @£35k + state pension. This seems a long way off the £10k quoted earlier, so I guess one of us is in for a shock!
I thought it was 7%, with another 5% matched to your personal 5%. Is this so, or is it just 7% as stated by some?
12% + 5% PC for me, with a small lump sum from another pot, to retire at 60, works out for me at about @£35k + state pension. This seems a long way off the £10k quoted earlier, so I guess one of us is in for a shock!
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Here is how it is laid out.
Pension contributions are flexible with the following combinations:
5% from you 7% from company giving 12%
4% from you 6% from company giving 10%
3% from you 5% from company giving 8%
You may increase your contribution with AVC's but the company will offer a max of 7%. I believe, but am not certain, that the tax threshold for AVC's is set at a combined 17%.
The more you pay the more the company pays upto 7%. However, FO starting pay, gross before flying benefits is approx £42000, the pensionable pay however has not been increased and starts at £32000. This is where it gets complicated as the pension is only calculated on 75% of your basic salaried, pensionable wage i.e 12% of £32000 not including flying benefits which are tax reduced due to not being pensionable income.
If I have made some glaring errors I'm sure that someone will point it out but, as far as I can figure it, thats how it works.
p.s. I'm on BARP as well :-(
Probably muddied the waters again!!
Pension contributions are flexible with the following combinations:
5% from you 7% from company giving 12%
4% from you 6% from company giving 10%
3% from you 5% from company giving 8%
You may increase your contribution with AVC's but the company will offer a max of 7%. I believe, but am not certain, that the tax threshold for AVC's is set at a combined 17%.
The more you pay the more the company pays upto 7%. However, FO starting pay, gross before flying benefits is approx £42000, the pensionable pay however has not been increased and starts at £32000. This is where it gets complicated as the pension is only calculated on 75% of your basic salaried, pensionable wage i.e 12% of £32000 not including flying benefits which are tax reduced due to not being pensionable income.
If I have made some glaring errors I'm sure that someone will point it out but, as far as I can figure it, thats how it works.
p.s. I'm on BARP as well :-(
Probably muddied the waters again!!
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I think BA need bringing to task if this is the case. At interview, we were DEFINATELY told pension was 12 % contribution. The Ad in FI, and the BA website say it is an"Industry Leading Pension"
I think a call to the Advertising Standards Agency may be in order, as that is a claim that is totally untrue.
The number of pilots joining under this scheme is growing fast, and must be near 10% of the workforce soon. How can BA/BALPA fail to represent such a large section of its members.
I know a lot of people say "You knew what it was when you joined", but that is not actually true. You have no visibility of BLR before you join BA, and there appears to be a lot of smoke and mirrors surrounding this issue - not surprising if it really is as bad a deal as it seems. It seems to fall behind every other major airline in the country, other than easy, which it is comparable with.
I think a call to the Advertising Standards Agency may be in order, as that is a claim that is totally untrue.
The number of pilots joining under this scheme is growing fast, and must be near 10% of the workforce soon. How can BA/BALPA fail to represent such a large section of its members.
I know a lot of people say "You knew what it was when you joined", but that is not actually true. You have no visibility of BLR before you join BA, and there appears to be a lot of smoke and mirrors surrounding this issue - not surprising if it really is as bad a deal as it seems. It seems to fall behind every other major airline in the country, other than easy, which it is comparable with.
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PTG
The one in for a shock is you mate, but at least you seem to be taking it on board. Lord Melchard sprang to mind when I saw your previous post "in the face of insurmountable evidence, a blind unwillingness to face the truth should see us through"
Firstly, lets not make Balpas life easy by comparing apples with pears, BARP and NAPS retirement age is 55, so don't get into the trap of saying it's ok if I have to work to 75 to get an equivilant pension.
Your £35k pension requires a fund of £700k at 60. Good luck with your AVCs, however some people have lives.
Barney
12% + 5% PC for me, with a small lump sum from another pot, to retire at 60, works out for me at about @£35k + state pension. This seems a long way off the £10k quoted earlier, so I guess one of us is in for a shock!
Firstly, lets not make Balpas life easy by comparing apples with pears, BARP and NAPS retirement age is 55, so don't get into the trap of saying it's ok if I have to work to 75 to get an equivilant pension.
Your £35k pension requires a fund of £700k at 60. Good luck with your AVCs, however some people have lives.
Barney
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Right here goes. From the Watson Wyatt (Ltd) website which you can only log onto after joining because you need your user ID.
Tier of Membership History: Member 6% Employer 12%(pilot).
From my payslip pensionable salary = £32130, basic = £42841.
(The reason for the difference is that at the last pay deal a lot of non-pensionable allowances were bundled together and added to salary).
Therefore I pay £160.65 and BA £321.30 per month.
(32130/12*.006= 160.65)
I can top my contribution up to a max of 15% of my total taxable pay. I paid £514.28 Additional Voluntary Contribution (AVC). £514.28 + £160.65 = £674.93. 674.93/0.15= 4499.53 which was about 91% of my gross.
So with such huge sums going into my pension why am I not going to retire a squillionare?
If you put these figures into a pension calculator
http://www.pensioncalculator.org.uk/pages/home.php
you will see the problem. To get a decent pension you will need a fund of £350 000 plus, this is why NAPS and especially APS are such great schemes. They all fall short so use extra company income to top up the pension. The public sector pensions just raise taxes to pay. In effect the members of NAPS voted in the new BARP scheme by their silence. By underfunding BARP BA releases money to prop up NAPS . This is very divissive stuff and BA know it.
The silver linings for BARP'ers? At pay point 5 pensionable pay rises from 75% to 80% basic. Pay increases by 4% per annum. The Watson Wyatt calculator is too dim to evaluate right to left seat pay increase at say year 12 (pay rises 25%). A tax effecient salary sacrifice scheme may be impemented. Stock markets may make continuous exponential rises for the next 2 centuries. If you do achieve a large fund you could use draw-down instead of annuities. Something positive may happen to pensions in the next 20 years. You could work to 75. BA may acknowledge the deliberate payment holiday with BARPS and pay a sensible contribution. Buy lots of BA shares, your pension money is going to be used to pay the dividend after all.
The down side. All pay negotions at BA (and everywhere) will always be downward. Annuity rates can only fall, so £6K per £100k fund will be £4K when I retire, wiping out all the silver lining gains. If you index link your annuity it reduces further. If you want a spouse included it reduces further. If you take a cash lump sum .....
Please don't think I'm not aware of the even worse deal for all other groups on BARP. Their deal is 3,4,or 5% member. Company 5,6 or 7%. Pilots only get 12% because we retire at 55.
The NAPS pension awareness campaign kicked off yesterday. The aim is to get NAPS to hybrid into BARP but expect a lot of hyperbole to the contrary.
P.S. this website is monitored.
Tier of Membership History: Member 6% Employer 12%(pilot).
From my payslip pensionable salary = £32130, basic = £42841.
(The reason for the difference is that at the last pay deal a lot of non-pensionable allowances were bundled together and added to salary).
Therefore I pay £160.65 and BA £321.30 per month.
(32130/12*.006= 160.65)
I can top my contribution up to a max of 15% of my total taxable pay. I paid £514.28 Additional Voluntary Contribution (AVC). £514.28 + £160.65 = £674.93. 674.93/0.15= 4499.53 which was about 91% of my gross.
So with such huge sums going into my pension why am I not going to retire a squillionare?
If you put these figures into a pension calculator
http://www.pensioncalculator.org.uk/pages/home.php
you will see the problem. To get a decent pension you will need a fund of £350 000 plus, this is why NAPS and especially APS are such great schemes. They all fall short so use extra company income to top up the pension. The public sector pensions just raise taxes to pay. In effect the members of NAPS voted in the new BARP scheme by their silence. By underfunding BARP BA releases money to prop up NAPS . This is very divissive stuff and BA know it.
The silver linings for BARP'ers? At pay point 5 pensionable pay rises from 75% to 80% basic. Pay increases by 4% per annum. The Watson Wyatt calculator is too dim to evaluate right to left seat pay increase at say year 12 (pay rises 25%). A tax effecient salary sacrifice scheme may be impemented. Stock markets may make continuous exponential rises for the next 2 centuries. If you do achieve a large fund you could use draw-down instead of annuities. Something positive may happen to pensions in the next 20 years. You could work to 75. BA may acknowledge the deliberate payment holiday with BARPS and pay a sensible contribution. Buy lots of BA shares, your pension money is going to be used to pay the dividend after all.
The down side. All pay negotions at BA (and everywhere) will always be downward. Annuity rates can only fall, so £6K per £100k fund will be £4K when I retire, wiping out all the silver lining gains. If you index link your annuity it reduces further. If you want a spouse included it reduces further. If you take a cash lump sum .....
Please don't think I'm not aware of the even worse deal for all other groups on BARP. Their deal is 3,4,or 5% member. Company 5,6 or 7%. Pilots only get 12% because we retire at 55.
The NAPS pension awareness campaign kicked off yesterday. The aim is to get NAPS to hybrid into BARP but expect a lot of hyperbole to the contrary.
P.S. this website is monitored.
Last edited by FlyingTom; 7th Oct 2005 at 10:38.
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F-T
Thanks for that. A great insight into some of the issues with BARP/NAPS.
You seem to be suggesting that the company contribution is 12%, with me adding 6%. Other guys have said it is definitely 7% from BA - can anybody say catagorically which it is for DEP's?
Have been talking things through with Mrs P-T-G, who is an employment lawyer, and far wiser than me on these issues. She suggests that FSS pensions are a thing of the past, and only going to cause companies/employees grief in the future.
She pointed out that in reality, you need to look at the overall pay/pension package, to see who is better off, and it seems to me that BA is still the best bet in the long term.
I agree that these issues are divisive. I think the collective bargaining principle of our contracts will suffer, now that BALPA are not negotiating the same contract for all pilots. Previously, we were all voting for a contract applicable to all pilots at some stage of our careers. Now the pilot vote is split, and as a result, I believe we have weakened our negotiating position. Management will be able to play BARPers against NAPSters, and watch them squabble. Come the moment, I hope we realise this, and all pull together.
Thanks for that. A great insight into some of the issues with BARP/NAPS.
You seem to be suggesting that the company contribution is 12%, with me adding 6%. Other guys have said it is definitely 7% from BA - can anybody say catagorically which it is for DEP's?
Have been talking things through with Mrs P-T-G, who is an employment lawyer, and far wiser than me on these issues. She suggests that FSS pensions are a thing of the past, and only going to cause companies/employees grief in the future.
She pointed out that in reality, you need to look at the overall pay/pension package, to see who is better off, and it seems to me that BA is still the best bet in the long term.
I agree that these issues are divisive. I think the collective bargaining principle of our contracts will suffer, now that BALPA are not negotiating the same contract for all pilots. Previously, we were all voting for a contract applicable to all pilots at some stage of our careers. Now the pilot vote is split, and as a result, I believe we have weakened our negotiating position. Management will be able to play BARPers against NAPSters, and watch them squabble. Come the moment, I hope we realise this, and all pull together.
