Flybe Employee's Roll Over
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Reading this post I can only say that I am glad more than ever that I left FlyBe when I did. The 5% was rejected initially and I felt that there was a real chance that the lifestyle issues could then be redressed since the pilots had the 'company over a barrell' with so many pilots leaving. How another ballot has now passed the 5% rise is beyond me. I think that it can only be the influx of new crew that just see the money aspect and haven't been in long enough to experience the severe disruption and frankly poor life style that flybe offers. I can only see it getting worse in the future with the rapidly expanding fleet and shrinking experience. Everyone that I have spoken to recently who still work at flybe have expressed that things have continued to get worse there. As for flying fiona I can't believe your piss poor attitude, it is disgusting that you lump all of the blame on dash 8 crews, having been on both fleets during my time at flybe both had its good and bad points but seperating the pilot workforce along this was will only benefit the company. Very petty, childish and rude comments from quite frankly a bully, well done fiona.
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AH, I think you are right. There are a lot of new people to the company who are in BALPA who are keen to fly as much as they can (as we all were when we had low hours!) and are concerned with the money rather than how the working day disrupts their lifestyle.
From speaking to experienced crews, they all voted NO for the ballot (and I am talking about butty eating dash drivers here FF!).
As for the fleet devide......it is only apparent when someone wants to make themselves seem to be better than others!!!!
From speaking to experienced crews, they all voted NO for the ballot (and I am talking about butty eating dash drivers here FF!).
As for the fleet devide......it is only apparent when someone wants to make themselves seem to be better than others!!!!
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The fact that substantially more than half the pilots are not in BALPA and they haven't been asked or even kept informed about the pay negotiations speaks volumes about the company's appalling communications and general people management skills.
niknak
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Whatever the internal gripes at Flybe and despite the current shortage of very experienced pilots for this sector of the industry, there are, and always will be, many slightly less experienced pilots who are prepared to leave other operators (such as Eastern) to join the Flybe turbo fleet and bide their time until a jet postion becomes available.
I'm not a pilot nor do I work for Flybe, but I've been in the aviation industry for a very long time, and I know that this situation will prevail ad infunitum.
Flying Fiona is either very brave or very silly, with such outspoken attitudes, it's relatively easy for management to find out who you really are, and although they won't worry too much about your opinion they will bear it mind when an opportunity for promotion comes along - unless you've already left to become chief piot at B.A.
I'm not a pilot nor do I work for Flybe, but I've been in the aviation industry for a very long time, and I know that this situation will prevail ad infunitum.
Flying Fiona is either very brave or very silly, with such outspoken attitudes, it's relatively easy for management to find out who you really are, and although they won't worry too much about your opinion they will bear it mind when an opportunity for promotion comes along - unless you've already left to become chief piot at B.A.
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worried
I am not a pilot, nor work in the aviation industry. I am a lawyer, who as an aviation enthusiast has read these forums for a long time, purely out of interest.
Seriously you guys.............................. come on! I realise there are serious issues being discussed here and many of the issues revolve around careers, salaries and lifestyle, which ultimately, is why we all get out of bed everyday. I do not seek to trivialise the argument.
In some of these threads, especially ones as vociferous as this, if you stepped back and took a long look at the way in which others may perceive what is being debated, and more importantly, the manner in which it is being debated, than you may realise that some of you are not doing yourselves any justice at all. I would go as far as to say that some of you really let yourselves down on a personal and professional basis. Its all a bit worrying really. I hope you don't squabble like this on the flightdeck.
I know the grass is always greener ect ect, but i would have given anything not to have appaling eyesight and to have been able to fly professionally.
Some of these threads actually make lawyers look like outstanding, upright and thoroughly decent people!
I wait to be shot down by a barrage of obnoxious replies telling me to mind my own business.
Seriously you guys.............................. come on! I realise there are serious issues being discussed here and many of the issues revolve around careers, salaries and lifestyle, which ultimately, is why we all get out of bed everyday. I do not seek to trivialise the argument.
In some of these threads, especially ones as vociferous as this, if you stepped back and took a long look at the way in which others may perceive what is being debated, and more importantly, the manner in which it is being debated, than you may realise that some of you are not doing yourselves any justice at all. I would go as far as to say that some of you really let yourselves down on a personal and professional basis. Its all a bit worrying really. I hope you don't squabble like this on the flightdeck.
I know the grass is always greener ect ect, but i would have given anything not to have appaling eyesight and to have been able to fly professionally.
Some of these threads actually make lawyers look like outstanding, upright and thoroughly decent people!
I wait to be shot down by a barrage of obnoxious replies telling me to mind my own business.
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daveandferdy, respectively,
That is the crux of the matter, too many new people in this industry 'just want to fly', just think about it for goodness sake and take off your rose tinted glasses.
"Justice"...? coming from a lawyer, tell me that is a joke... right...? 
i would have given anything not to have appaling eyesight and to have been able to fly professionally.
the manner in which it is being debated, than you may realise that some of you are not doing yourselves any justice at all
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daveandferdy
For a lawyer, you make a lot of assumptions.
Leaving aside for a minute the fact that being a pilot these days is more and more a blue-collar job, our "profession" has been continually undermined, in terms of pay and conditions, since the 80's.
One of the more obvious characteristics of this process of change, has been the way in which crews are treated by their management. In days gone by, pilots were accorded a high level of respect and renumeration. This was partly in recognition of the skill of the pilot, partly in recognition of the enormous responsibility placed upon his or her shoulders, and partly in recognition of the fact that the company could well fail if one pilot was careless for a few seconds.
These days, companies have learned to live with the risk of a disgruntled workforce, balancing the survival instincts of their pilots against the possible consequences of a lapse of concentration.
All the current thinking on good employment practice stresses that a happy, motivated workforce will do wonders for a companies' profits. However, airlines ignore this, by and large, as they are unable to treat their employees well without risking the all-important bottom line. Such is the world we now live in.
My point? It is easy to sit there in your lawyers office and pass judgement on issues you have no understanding of. Does your career hang on a six-monthly medical, or a six-monthly proficiency check? Do you go to work in the morning, expecting to be home with your family that night - but find that you don't actually get home for several days due to some crewing emergency (brought on by having insufficient crews in the first place)? Does your career potentially hang on NOT making some small mistake that has serious consequences? Do you find yourself so tired that you know you aren't functioning properly, but also knowing that trying to step down until you are properly rested will likely result in disciplinary action?
No, I didn't think so. Welcome to our world.
You, too, do yourself no favours by wading in with such facile observations. Do you think we want to complain about this stuff? We do not. We just want to get on with our jobs, but find that the increasing pressure on our time, health and bank balances leaves us with no option but to raise our voices.
I love flying, but I would kill for a nice, predictable, stable, well-paid and family-friendly job as a lawyer.
I find you post to be, frankly, very offensive.
Think about it.
For a lawyer, you make a lot of assumptions.
Leaving aside for a minute the fact that being a pilot these days is more and more a blue-collar job, our "profession" has been continually undermined, in terms of pay and conditions, since the 80's.
One of the more obvious characteristics of this process of change, has been the way in which crews are treated by their management. In days gone by, pilots were accorded a high level of respect and renumeration. This was partly in recognition of the skill of the pilot, partly in recognition of the enormous responsibility placed upon his or her shoulders, and partly in recognition of the fact that the company could well fail if one pilot was careless for a few seconds.
These days, companies have learned to live with the risk of a disgruntled workforce, balancing the survival instincts of their pilots against the possible consequences of a lapse of concentration.
All the current thinking on good employment practice stresses that a happy, motivated workforce will do wonders for a companies' profits. However, airlines ignore this, by and large, as they are unable to treat their employees well without risking the all-important bottom line. Such is the world we now live in.
My point? It is easy to sit there in your lawyers office and pass judgement on issues you have no understanding of. Does your career hang on a six-monthly medical, or a six-monthly proficiency check? Do you go to work in the morning, expecting to be home with your family that night - but find that you don't actually get home for several days due to some crewing emergency (brought on by having insufficient crews in the first place)? Does your career potentially hang on NOT making some small mistake that has serious consequences? Do you find yourself so tired that you know you aren't functioning properly, but also knowing that trying to step down until you are properly rested will likely result in disciplinary action?
No, I didn't think so. Welcome to our world.
You, too, do yourself no favours by wading in with such facile observations. Do you think we want to complain about this stuff? We do not. We just want to get on with our jobs, but find that the increasing pressure on our time, health and bank balances leaves us with no option but to raise our voices.
I love flying, but I would kill for a nice, predictable, stable, well-paid and family-friendly job as a lawyer.
I find you post to be, frankly, very offensive.
Think about it.
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Plus ca change. I left the aviation industry after 28 years of professional flying because my (various company) terms and conditions had steadily eroded virtually from day one. No the job isn't what it once was....but that's true of many jobs today. When I flew for a living I also used to bang on about how my liveliehood was dependant on six monthly medicals and proficiency checks and how hard doneby I (we) all were and how no other profession was subject to such stringent working conditions. Well, I've since found out that's not entirely true. Used to be we all retired earlier than the general population and so got paid a bit more to compensate for the loss of 5 or 10 years salary. That tends not to be so true now and in any case medical science has moved on quite a lot, so (and I'll whisper this) in most cases it's actually quite difficult to lose your medical. Six monthly proficiency checks are part of the job, accept it or leave.
From a new perspective I now realise that, frankly, I was a bit of a prima donna ~ mind you I wasn't alone, most of my colleagues were as well, in some shape or form. We all felt that 'the airline' just would'nt exist without us...actually an airline is an organisation made up of many components, and if any one doesn't function properly then the whole comes to a grinding halt. We also felt that the 'company' owed us a living...it never did and it never will, I'm afraid.
I peruse PPrune from time to time, mainly to remind myself why I got out of flying if I'm ever tempted by nostalgic thoughts, particularly if business is a bit slow. I'm not amazed to find the same, blinkered opinions that I used to hold so dear and consequently always come away feeling that I made the right decision at the right time, for me.
For those who still enjoy it all, well enjoy it. Be aware that the job will involve being 'shafted' by management/crewing et al, be aware that the job does involve having an unsettled social life/long duty days/night stops. If you like it, fine, if you don't then be aware that the job has always been the same and you're not going to change it, not by reasoned argument, wingeing or 'taking sickies'. Pilots always have and always will 'look after numero uno'. I'm not sure why that's particularly true of aviation ~the folks who are on a good deal seem to muster a collective will to do something to further improve their lot whilst those at the bottom of the pile seem unable to act collectively. Perhaps it's got something to do with the fact that our training always emphasised the 'responsibility thing', anyway, whatever.
As for 'Flying Fiona', well~personally I wouldn't let on in public that I took sickies~apart from the fact that,yes, management might find out and I suspect that they would find grounds to terminate your career~but if I had ever worked with somebody who (apparently) took regular sick days which most likely had a negative effect on what was already a sporadic and chaotic social life I think I would have become an 'equal-opportunity smack in the teether'.
From a new perspective I now realise that, frankly, I was a bit of a prima donna ~ mind you I wasn't alone, most of my colleagues were as well, in some shape or form. We all felt that 'the airline' just would'nt exist without us...actually an airline is an organisation made up of many components, and if any one doesn't function properly then the whole comes to a grinding halt. We also felt that the 'company' owed us a living...it never did and it never will, I'm afraid.
I peruse PPrune from time to time, mainly to remind myself why I got out of flying if I'm ever tempted by nostalgic thoughts, particularly if business is a bit slow. I'm not amazed to find the same, blinkered opinions that I used to hold so dear and consequently always come away feeling that I made the right decision at the right time, for me.
For those who still enjoy it all, well enjoy it. Be aware that the job will involve being 'shafted' by management/crewing et al, be aware that the job does involve having an unsettled social life/long duty days/night stops. If you like it, fine, if you don't then be aware that the job has always been the same and you're not going to change it, not by reasoned argument, wingeing or 'taking sickies'. Pilots always have and always will 'look after numero uno'. I'm not sure why that's particularly true of aviation ~the folks who are on a good deal seem to muster a collective will to do something to further improve their lot whilst those at the bottom of the pile seem unable to act collectively. Perhaps it's got something to do with the fact that our training always emphasised the 'responsibility thing', anyway, whatever.
As for 'Flying Fiona', well~personally I wouldn't let on in public that I took sickies~apart from the fact that,yes, management might find out and I suspect that they would find grounds to terminate your career~but if I had ever worked with somebody who (apparently) took regular sick days which most likely had a negative effect on what was already a sporadic and chaotic social life I think I would have become an 'equal-opportunity smack in the teether'.
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Ham Phisted,
You took the words right out of my mouth.
RD,
Nobody has given 8 days up just yet. There has been a poll sent out that is all. Not by BALPA though but a company one, which no doubt will never reflect the true opinion anyway.
However, of the 2 options given neither were acceptable, we need a 3rd option.
If the company has decided that the taking 3 days off of us
( without our consent or even put to a ballot I might add) was such a resounding success, why do they need to take a further 5 from us?
The options were :-
1. To accept the new proposal of giving up 8 days DOIL to allow for a 3 day block every month and a further 3 day block if you work 6 consecutive days.
In addition, if you accept, then next year you will get an extra 2 days leave as a sweetner.
2. Go back to the old system.
There was no option to keep the system that they had already imposed on us by taking the 3 days from us in the first place.
On paper this "3rd option" would seem to work.
Although they have said that the practice of rostering a single day off would stop, it clearly has not, as many of my colleagues will testify and of course myself included.
I am also still being rostered 6 then 2.
What we need is a 5 and 3 or ideally a 4 and 4 like, Op's, Crewing and Engineering but that is unlikely to happen.
The question you all have to ask yourselves is :-
If it is such a good system then why would we have to be bribed into excepting an initial extra 2 days leave to give up 8 Doils?
The only winners will be the company and not the Pilots that's for sure.
Anyone excepting this deal deserves all they get.
Newbies Beware, don't get suckered in like you did the paydeal.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
RD,
Nobody has given 8 days up just yet. There has been a poll sent out that is all. Not by BALPA though but a company one, which no doubt will never reflect the true opinion anyway.
However, of the 2 options given neither were acceptable, we need a 3rd option.
If the company has decided that the taking 3 days off of us
( without our consent or even put to a ballot I might add) was such a resounding success, why do they need to take a further 5 from us?
The options were :-
1. To accept the new proposal of giving up 8 days DOIL to allow for a 3 day block every month and a further 3 day block if you work 6 consecutive days.
In addition, if you accept, then next year you will get an extra 2 days leave as a sweetner.
2. Go back to the old system.
There was no option to keep the system that they had already imposed on us by taking the 3 days from us in the first place.
On paper this "3rd option" would seem to work.
Although they have said that the practice of rostering a single day off would stop, it clearly has not, as many of my colleagues will testify and of course myself included.
I am also still being rostered 6 then 2.
What we need is a 5 and 3 or ideally a 4 and 4 like, Op's, Crewing and Engineering but that is unlikely to happen.
The question you all have to ask yourselves is :-
If it is such a good system then why would we have to be bribed into excepting an initial extra 2 days leave to give up 8 Doils?
The only winners will be the company and not the Pilots that's for sure.
Anyone excepting this deal deserves all they get.
Newbies Beware, don't get suckered in like you did the paydeal.
Last edited by Smokie; 11th Jul 2005 at 02:17.
Smokie!
Amazing, after all these months and years of sniping you've actually made a point with which I agree 100%.
Fair enough to relinquish control of (not "give up') 3 days in a Summer Season to enable a slightly less knackering lifestyle - but why a further 5 days in a shorter and less intense Season to achieve - nothing.! The bizarre thing is that apparently the workforce has voted in favour of the latter by approx. 2:1 - my sources tell me at this stage, I stand to be corrected.
Amazing, after all these months and years of sniping you've actually made a point with which I agree 100%.
Fair enough to relinquish control of (not "give up') 3 days in a Summer Season to enable a slightly less knackering lifestyle - but why a further 5 days in a shorter and less intense Season to achieve - nothing.! The bizarre thing is that apparently the workforce has voted in favour of the latter by approx. 2:1 - my sources tell me at this stage, I stand to be corrected.
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twinboom,
Perhaps the penny has finally dropped?
So far this is only a company poll and not a BALPA Vote.
So even if the company try to enforce this, unless it goes to a Union vote then there are major T's & C's Issues to address.
Perhaps the penny has finally dropped?
So far this is only a company poll and not a BALPA Vote.
So even if the company try to enforce this, unless it goes to a Union vote then there are major T's & C's Issues to address.
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You lot can vote yes and give up your holidays but that won't effect my holiday entitlement. Nor will it effect me if you get a positive vote through BALPA.
I signed a contract when I started at Flybe stating my conditions and that cannot change just because you lot vote for in favour of giving up your leave.
I tore up the ballot slip and wrote to the management saying why I would not take part in the vote.
Those that wish to give up their leave can do so but my entitlement will stay exactly as it is. As for the 3 days they took from you during the summer, I still have mine. I urge all of you that have allowed them to take them from you to get them back.
I signed a contract when I started at Flybe stating my conditions and that cannot change just because you lot vote for in favour of giving up your leave.
I tore up the ballot slip and wrote to the management saying why I would not take part in the vote.
Those that wish to give up their leave can do so but my entitlement will stay exactly as it is. As for the 3 days they took from you during the summer, I still have mine. I urge all of you that have allowed them to take them from you to get them back.
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I'll think you'll find that somewhere in that contract, it will indicate that T&C's can be altered as long as you are given the appropriate notice. Or maybe you were lucky and they left that bit off yours. Not sure where you would stand legally as the company may well be within its rights to alter your T&C's. The only defence against that is a strong union or CC... ha ha ha ha ha ha....... 
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You are correct MOR. The company can change your terms and conditions but the changes have to be within reason.
For example they can change the amount of shirts they supply you with each year because the effect on employees is minimal. If you remember the company did reduce the amount they provided you with a few years ago from six to four. They can do this because four shirts per year is a reasonable amount.
They cannot take away your entitlement of shirts away completely as the supply of uniform is written into your contract.
Taking away leave or reducing salary or altering pension benifits etc. is a different kettle of fish. They cannot make major changes without your agreement. If they do they are in breach of employment law.
The company knows this and that is why my three days were returned to me as soon as I put pen to paper. Those of you that have voted yes to giving up your leave have now signed an agreement with the company which is personal to them. It has nothing to do with a vote.
The company is not stupid. They will have took advice from their lawyers before attempting to make major changes to your employment contract.
For example they can change the amount of shirts they supply you with each year because the effect on employees is minimal. If you remember the company did reduce the amount they provided you with a few years ago from six to four. They can do this because four shirts per year is a reasonable amount.
They cannot take away your entitlement of shirts away completely as the supply of uniform is written into your contract.
Taking away leave or reducing salary or altering pension benifits etc. is a different kettle of fish. They cannot make major changes without your agreement. If they do they are in breach of employment law.
The company knows this and that is why my three days were returned to me as soon as I put pen to paper. Those of you that have voted yes to giving up your leave have now signed an agreement with the company which is personal to them. It has nothing to do with a vote.
The company is not stupid. They will have took advice from their lawyers before attempting to make major changes to your employment contract.
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The company is not stupid.
I could have taken advantage of them many times if I was so inclined, so poor was the administration in some areas.
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Leave
Am I missing something, you may have 3 days taken off the summer leave but instead you get extra days off each month you're not on leave thus cancelling that out don't you?
Am I wrong by saying that you don't actually lose any days off for the year but the ratio of DO's to LDO's/ALV has changed?
Am I wrong by saying that you don't actually lose any days off for the year but the ratio of DO's to LDO's/ALV has changed?
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Apparently it's been given the go-ahead. You'll lose control of 8 leave days a year. Which could actually equate to 12 days if you took one block of 5 (with the 4 wrap-around days) and another block of 3.
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Trislander you are correct but so is er82. The problem is with the scheme is the company will roster more single days off during the winter. Before, you could request 3 block days per month even if you had leave booked in that month. Bottom line is most employees have given up a 9 day block and a 5 day block which they have control over. 7 years ago when there was a high attrition rate the company gave us extra leave (1 day per each year worked) to stop the resignation rate. Now they are taking it back! It is the worst thing the company has ever done and it will only contribute to the already high resignation rate resulting in more disruption.