How hard do you work?
aka Capt PPRuNe
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d192049d, before you enter the fray and cause a massive derailment of the threads intention, and I'm sure you'd know this if you were experienced in 'the job', block hours are not to be equated with groundlings '9-5' plus overtime working hours. Block hours, just to make sure you and all the other shocked outsiders are aware, are the hours from push-back to brakes-on back on stand.
The last time I had to defend this was with a certain paedophile who was pretending to be an aviation expert and entrepreneur who insisted that the only time pilots actually worked was from push-back until the autopilot was engaged and then the opposite at the other end. Flight crew also have to report for work at least an hour and often longer, especially in long haul, before the scheduled time of departure. In case you may not have thought this through completely before posting your statements above, you must remember the time that it takes to turn around an aircraft on multiple sectors and also the time it takes a crew to finish off their duty at the end of their shift.
It is still slightly amusing when you get pax who assume that you are going to get off the a/c after they have left and will, a la 'Mile High' (tv farce), be spending the next few days in a drunken, mass orgy with your fellow cabin-crew in a five star resort hotel. From the tone of the post by d192049d, it would probably be fair to assume that the mention of 60, 80 or 100 block hours a month is the total hours worked. I respectfully suggest that those who feel aggrieved at the hours we work go and look up the meaning and the difference between 'block-hours' and 'duty-hours'.
Oh, and before I forget, you too can have cushy job like ours with minimal working hours and all the associated glamour by doing exactly what we had to do... scrimp and save, remortgage your life, do the studying, training and all the tests and exams before the catch-22 slog of trying to get on that bottom rung of the employment ladder and then suffering the seniority system and terrorists that cause you and your colleagues great career harm with their inconsiderate mass murder using our tools of the trade as their weapons of mass destruction!
The simple answer to anyone who sees our 'whingeing' as fortunate when compared to their mundane 9-5 existence is to tell them to get off their @rses and get a licence!
The last time I had to defend this was with a certain paedophile who was pretending to be an aviation expert and entrepreneur who insisted that the only time pilots actually worked was from push-back until the autopilot was engaged and then the opposite at the other end. Flight crew also have to report for work at least an hour and often longer, especially in long haul, before the scheduled time of departure. In case you may not have thought this through completely before posting your statements above, you must remember the time that it takes to turn around an aircraft on multiple sectors and also the time it takes a crew to finish off their duty at the end of their shift.
It is still slightly amusing when you get pax who assume that you are going to get off the a/c after they have left and will, a la 'Mile High' (tv farce), be spending the next few days in a drunken, mass orgy with your fellow cabin-crew in a five star resort hotel. From the tone of the post by d192049d, it would probably be fair to assume that the mention of 60, 80 or 100 block hours a month is the total hours worked. I respectfully suggest that those who feel aggrieved at the hours we work go and look up the meaning and the difference between 'block-hours' and 'duty-hours'.
Oh, and before I forget, you too can have cushy job like ours with minimal working hours and all the associated glamour by doing exactly what we had to do... scrimp and save, remortgage your life, do the studying, training and all the tests and exams before the catch-22 slog of trying to get on that bottom rung of the employment ladder and then suffering the seniority system and terrorists that cause you and your colleagues great career harm with their inconsiderate mass murder using our tools of the trade as their weapons of mass destruction!
The simple answer to anyone who sees our 'whingeing' as fortunate when compared to their mundane 9-5 existence is to tell them to get off their @rses and get a licence!
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d192049d, before you enter the fray and cause a massive derailment of the threads intention, and I'm sure you'd know this if you were experienced in 'the job', block hours are not to be equated with groundlings '9-5' plus overtime working hours. Block hours, just to make sure you and all the other shocked outsiders are aware, are the hours from push-back to brakes-on back on stand.
I am aware of this Danny as my partner flys and has done for 17 years both Long Haul & Short Haul, so I feel qualified to comment...
The last time I had to defend this was with a certain paedophile who was pretending to be an aviation expert and entrepreneur who insisted that the only time pilots actually worked was from push-back until the autopilot was engaged and then the opposite at the other end. Flight crew also have to report for work at least an hour and often longer, especially in long haul, before the scheduled time of departure. In case you may not have thought this through completely before posting your statements above, you must remember the time that it takes to turn around an aircraft on multiple sectors and also the time it takes a crew to finish off their duty at the end of their shift.
Again I am aware of this for the reason already stated which is why I still maintain you need remain grounded when discussing your working week by comparing it with the 9-5's as you term it. By the way what is that and why mention the word paedophile in the context of my post?
It is still slightly amusing when you get pax who assume that you are going to get off the a/c after they have left and will, a la 'Mile High' (tv farce), be spending the next few days in a drunken, mass orgy with your fellow cabin-crew in a five star resort hotel. From the tone of the post by d192049d, it would probably be fair to assume that the mention of 60, 80 or 100 block hours a month is the total hours worked. I respectfully suggest that those who feel aggrieved at the hours we work go and look up the meaning and the difference between 'block-hours' and 'duty-hours'.
It may be amusing but having attended a number of such parties down route I can testify that they do happen with the exception of the orgies. As to what this has to do with my post I do not know as I never mentioned anything about this. Calm down Danny my post was meant as a commercial world context to help stop you all feeling hard done by.
Oh, and before I forget, you too can have cushy job like ours with minimal working hours and all the associated glamour by doing exactly what we had to do... scrimp and save, remortgage your life, do the studying, training and all the tests and exams before the catch-22 slog of trying to get on that bottom rung of the employment ladder and then suffering the seniority system and terrorists that cause you and your colleagues great career harm with their inconsiderate mass murder using our tools of the trade as their weapons of mass destruction!
Danny I would admit complete admiration for all of you who have made the sacrifices you have, that said slightly off topic and perhaps a sign of a little anger in your response me thinks. However it is not just the flying world where such sacrifices have to be made and most careers have the long tortuous path to the top you describe
The simple answer to anyone who sees our 'whingeing' as fortunate when compared to their mundane 9-5 existence is to tell them to get off their @rses and get a licence!
Have a licence and fly for fun when I have the time. Perhaps not so high but just as enjoyable.
I am aware of this Danny as my partner flys and has done for 17 years both Long Haul & Short Haul, so I feel qualified to comment...
The last time I had to defend this was with a certain paedophile who was pretending to be an aviation expert and entrepreneur who insisted that the only time pilots actually worked was from push-back until the autopilot was engaged and then the opposite at the other end. Flight crew also have to report for work at least an hour and often longer, especially in long haul, before the scheduled time of departure. In case you may not have thought this through completely before posting your statements above, you must remember the time that it takes to turn around an aircraft on multiple sectors and also the time it takes a crew to finish off their duty at the end of their shift.
Again I am aware of this for the reason already stated which is why I still maintain you need remain grounded when discussing your working week by comparing it with the 9-5's as you term it. By the way what is that and why mention the word paedophile in the context of my post?
It is still slightly amusing when you get pax who assume that you are going to get off the a/c after they have left and will, a la 'Mile High' (tv farce), be spending the next few days in a drunken, mass orgy with your fellow cabin-crew in a five star resort hotel. From the tone of the post by d192049d, it would probably be fair to assume that the mention of 60, 80 or 100 block hours a month is the total hours worked. I respectfully suggest that those who feel aggrieved at the hours we work go and look up the meaning and the difference between 'block-hours' and 'duty-hours'.
It may be amusing but having attended a number of such parties down route I can testify that they do happen with the exception of the orgies. As to what this has to do with my post I do not know as I never mentioned anything about this. Calm down Danny my post was meant as a commercial world context to help stop you all feeling hard done by.
Oh, and before I forget, you too can have cushy job like ours with minimal working hours and all the associated glamour by doing exactly what we had to do... scrimp and save, remortgage your life, do the studying, training and all the tests and exams before the catch-22 slog of trying to get on that bottom rung of the employment ladder and then suffering the seniority system and terrorists that cause you and your colleagues great career harm with their inconsiderate mass murder using our tools of the trade as their weapons of mass destruction!
Danny I would admit complete admiration for all of you who have made the sacrifices you have, that said slightly off topic and perhaps a sign of a little anger in your response me thinks. However it is not just the flying world where such sacrifices have to be made and most careers have the long tortuous path to the top you describe
The simple answer to anyone who sees our 'whingeing' as fortunate when compared to their mundane 9-5 existence is to tell them to get off their @rses and get a licence!
Have a licence and fly for fun when I have the time. Perhaps not so high but just as enjoyable.
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Lets get this thread on back on track. If you want a bun fight start a new one please.
d192049d you're not qualified to enter this thread so no offence but go peddle you're twaddle elsewhere.
<edited for spelling!>
d192049d you're not qualified to enter this thread so no offence but go peddle you're twaddle elsewhere.
<edited for spelling!>
Last edited by Scottie; 29th Jun 2005 at 15:09.
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d192049d you are right in what you say, but as you can see by some of the replies you will be harangued if you disagree with the elitist faternity 
In defence the honest reply is that it is money for old rope and if you can do it for a living go for it.
It is worth the studying and if self financed, the money invested.
Not sure what other employment field you can be paid a good salary for working 900hrs maximum per year. If it was not the posters in this forum would be doing something else
In defence the honest reply is that it is money for old rope and if you can do it for a living go for it.
It is worth the studying and if self financed, the money invested.
Not sure what other employment field you can be paid a good salary for working 900hrs maximum per year. If it was not the posters in this forum would be doing something else
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Jul 05
Fleet: B733
Block Hours: 40.5
Overnights: 0
Days off:18
Standby days: 0
Roster stability: what's that again?
Tired: of boredom.
Engineer: with 900 hours of work per year, people would only do maybe 400 hour block time, which happens to be true for my company, however, this is very, very unusual (especially on short to medium haul).
Did you mean block hours? if you did, it's more like 1500 working hours. And 900 may be the max in your country, but local regulations allow for well over 1000 block hours per year here. - remember, JARs are not law.
Is the GBP1100 after tax we all get in this new EU country really that much, especially when you consider the money going straight to the bank?
nice thread, thank you very much! cheers, IP
Fleet: B733
Block Hours: 40.5
Overnights: 0
Days off:18
Standby days: 0
Roster stability: what's that again?
Tired: of boredom.
Engineer: with 900 hours of work per year, people would only do maybe 400 hour block time, which happens to be true for my company, however, this is very, very unusual (especially on short to medium haul).
Did you mean block hours? if you did, it's more like 1500 working hours. And 900 may be the max in your country, but local regulations allow for well over 1000 block hours per year here. - remember, JARs are not law.
Is the GBP1100 after tax we all get in this new EU country really that much, especially when you consider the money going straight to the bank?
nice thread, thank you very much! cheers, IP
Alba Gu Brath
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Possibly not Scottie. The average 9-5'er will work 1850 hours per year, based on a 40 hour week. With the extra half hours added on 'for the company' most will work over 2,000 hours in a year. EU directive prevents aircrew working more than 2,000 hours in a year.
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Jul 05
Operator: BAW
Fleet: 737
Flight Time: 73 block
Away from Base: 5 nights
Days Off: 11
Standbys: 6 days
Roster Stability: very good
Tired: yep...min rest at home is getting a bit tedious
Operator: BAW
Fleet: 737
Flight Time: 73 block
Away from Base: 5 nights
Days Off: 11
Standbys: 6 days
Roster Stability: very good
Tired: yep...min rest at home is getting a bit tedious
Freight God
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Although I find the 'us' versus 'them' a little bit silly I would like to add one aspect most people here did NOT notice.
Even if most 9-5ers might over all get a slightly longer duty time than the ones up in the tincan (I have never worked 9-5, it looked more like 7-7 or so), on the ground you very seldom have to work at times that go against your body clock.
I guess any long distance pilot (as cargo boy already mentioned) will be able to confirm the jet-lag does create some fatigue. Personally I am always amazed how crews can professionally fly an aircraft again after the rest time while I hesitate if I really should take that rental car to the office or have someone pick me up or actually try to sleep a bit more...
And now back to topic...
Even if most 9-5ers might over all get a slightly longer duty time than the ones up in the tincan (I have never worked 9-5, it looked more like 7-7 or so), on the ground you very seldom have to work at times that go against your body clock.
I guess any long distance pilot (as cargo boy already mentioned) will be able to confirm the jet-lag does create some fatigue. Personally I am always amazed how crews can professionally fly an aircraft again after the rest time while I hesitate if I really should take that rental car to the office or have someone pick me up or actually try to sleep a bit more...
And now back to topic...
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Jul 05
Operator: BAW
Fleet: 777
Flight Time: 78:45 block
Away from Base: 12 nights
Days Off: 14 including leave.
Standbys: 0
Roster Stability: fixed, pretty much.
Tired: The above includes eight Atlantic crossings so .... yes!
Operator: BAW
Fleet: 777
Flight Time: 78:45 block
Away from Base: 12 nights
Days Off: 14 including leave.
Standbys: 0
Roster Stability: fixed, pretty much.
Tired: The above includes eight Atlantic crossings so .... yes!
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June 05
Fleet: ATR42/72
Flight Time: 80:00 block
Away from Home (base can vary): 21 nights
Days Off: 8
Standbys: 0 (this month)
Roster Stability: changes regularly, very difficult to plan anything
Tired: Depends, we have a mixture of scheduled flights/charter and freight. Scheduled flying (daytime) is no problem and certainly a dream compared to the fatigue of night freight!
Working for a small company, the salary is poor...halve what you would earn net on the right hand seat of a 737 in pounds and then imagine being paid that amount gross in Euros (I'm serious)! The good news is that I work with fantastic colleagues, in fun locations and I'm building hours quickly. I work long hours and many weekends, but my lifestyle is fantastic compared to my previous life...
Fleet: ATR42/72
Flight Time: 80:00 block
Away from Home (base can vary): 21 nights
Days Off: 8
Standbys: 0 (this month)
Roster Stability: changes regularly, very difficult to plan anything
Tired: Depends, we have a mixture of scheduled flights/charter and freight. Scheduled flying (daytime) is no problem and certainly a dream compared to the fatigue of night freight!
Working for a small company, the salary is poor...halve what you would earn net on the right hand seat of a 737 in pounds and then imagine being paid that amount gross in Euros (I'm serious)! The good news is that I work with fantastic colleagues, in fun locations and I'm building hours quickly. I work long hours and many weekends, but my lifestyle is fantastic compared to my previous life...
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As someone who is relatively new to the world of commercial aviation in the UK (thanks Danny by the way). I think I have a rather unique perspective of coming from my work background of manual labour jobs....corporate relations....marketing....and plus a few other things besides.
Presently Im flying short/medium haul..(see page 1 of this thread)..and I can honestly tell those who scoff...its bloody hard work!...pilots dont wear as a badge of honour their flying hours, duty time, or indeed time off spent down route.
Perhaps those who scoff should try dodging thunderstorms...dealing with foreign ATC (english not spoken well)...10 working hours spent at 8500ft in 30% humidity....constant delays....grumpy cabin crew....night flights on minimum rest, and thats all I can think of in my presently knackered state.
So far as where this sits on the scale of effort vs energy....its the hardest I've had to work ever!!, remember scoffers..if we get it a bit wrong, its all over the papers the next day.
Presently Im flying short/medium haul..(see page 1 of this thread)..and I can honestly tell those who scoff...its bloody hard work!...pilots dont wear as a badge of honour their flying hours, duty time, or indeed time off spent down route.
Perhaps those who scoff should try dodging thunderstorms...dealing with foreign ATC (english not spoken well)...10 working hours spent at 8500ft in 30% humidity....constant delays....grumpy cabin crew....night flights on minimum rest, and thats all I can think of in my presently knackered state.
So far as where this sits on the scale of effort vs energy....its the hardest I've had to work ever!!, remember scoffers..if we get it a bit wrong, its all over the papers the next day.
Excuse me as an SLF commenting but perhaps impartially
I think many -especially more senior managers- work much longer than pilots even when you take duty time and related non flying work hours
But that ist the point-I do not want the guy or lady up front bringing me back to LHR at 2100 on a February night with a 35 knot southerly wind and pouring rain to feel like I often do at the end of a long working day or working week.
I am sure you all work pretty darn hard and I am sure the job has its ups and downs ( whoops) like all others but you are pilots and you are directly responsible for many many lives-very few executives can cause mayhem and death as an immediate consequence of one bad decision (and thank god for that) Therefore its only right and proper and logical that there should be restrictions on how long you work because the hardest part of your job tends to come at the end of the days work pretty much all the time.
I ve spent way too much time away from home to know the glamour and novelty value wears off fairly quickly as well so if thats a 'perk f the job' it is very debateable and at least I am allowed a few drinks,
So if you didnt mind me intruding-I read the thread as I interested in how 'tired' you folks assesed yourselves. I dont think any comparisons with ground jobs are remotely relevant - I think one poster pointed that out , the idea of the thread was to compare like with like not apples with oranges or just generally complain.
PB
I think many -especially more senior managers- work much longer than pilots even when you take duty time and related non flying work hours
But that ist the point-I do not want the guy or lady up front bringing me back to LHR at 2100 on a February night with a 35 knot southerly wind and pouring rain to feel like I often do at the end of a long working day or working week.
I am sure you all work pretty darn hard and I am sure the job has its ups and downs ( whoops) like all others but you are pilots and you are directly responsible for many many lives-very few executives can cause mayhem and death as an immediate consequence of one bad decision (and thank god for that) Therefore its only right and proper and logical that there should be restrictions on how long you work because the hardest part of your job tends to come at the end of the days work pretty much all the time.
I ve spent way too much time away from home to know the glamour and novelty value wears off fairly quickly as well so if thats a 'perk f the job' it is very debateable and at least I am allowed a few drinks,
So if you didnt mind me intruding-I read the thread as I interested in how 'tired' you folks assesed yourselves. I dont think any comparisons with ground jobs are remotely relevant - I think one poster pointed that out , the idea of the thread was to compare like with like not apples with oranges or just generally complain.
PB
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July 2005
Operator: KLM
Fleet: 737
Flight Time: 66 block
Away from Base: 10 nights
Days Off: 13 *)
Standbys: 4 days
Roster Stability: Very good.
Tired: Only the day I arrive home, next day is usually ok.
*) We have 11 days off per 28, but they are not always nicely spread, hence the 13...
Operator: KLM
Fleet: 737
Flight Time: 66 block
Away from Base: 10 nights
Days Off: 13 *)
Standbys: 4 days
Roster Stability: Very good.
Tired: Only the day I arrive home, next day is usually ok.
*) We have 11 days off per 28, but they are not always nicely spread, hence the 13...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bajo el sol de ..Canarias
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Fleet:A320
Block time: 82:40 Hrs in 10 days of flying.
Days off:10
Stdby:3
Roster stability: we need "some" flexibility...
Tired: sometimes yes.
In general I may not complain .
Block time: 82:40 Hrs in 10 days of flying.
Days off:10
Stdby:3
Roster stability: we need "some" flexibility...
Tired: sometimes yes.
In general I may not complain .
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Company:BAW
Fleet:747
Hours: 89
Away from Base:12 nights
Days Off:15
Roster Stability: Excellent
5 night flights in amongst that, knackered, not really but will need some afternoon naps on my days off
edited to say hours are 89, can not seem to rid myself of the geek in glasses
Fleet:747
Hours: 89
Away from Base:12 nights
Days Off:15
Roster Stability: Excellent
5 night flights in amongst that, knackered, not really but will need some afternoon naps on my days off
edited to say hours are 89, can not seem to rid myself of the geek in glasses
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company: TFL
blockhrs : 63.00
STBY's : 7
D/O : 9
Nights : 6
Naggered: Only after long haul through 4 or more timezones
Company had to more or less start again from scratch, so a very mild program this month. Usually it's back and forth over the ocean, now more European flights are coming which is very nice for the bio-clock I must say.
blockhrs : 63.00
STBY's : 7
D/O : 9
Nights : 6
Naggered: Only after long haul through 4 or more timezones
Company had to more or less start again from scratch, so a very mild program this month. Usually it's back and forth over the ocean, now more European flights are coming which is very nice for the bio-clock I must say.