Pilot shortage hits BA.
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Pilot shortage hits BA.
Seems like LCG and the Prince of Darkness are having a bit of a panic, as BA cancel flights due to a shortage of pilots. Sadly, BA pilots have had enough of their professionalism being taken for granted, whilst other employee groups are rewarded for walking off the job, etc...
The failure of Flight Ops management to address any of the BA pilot's concerns, coupled with recent unrealistic schedules, appears to have resulted in a withdrawal of goodwill, eg. not answering phones on days off.
Interesting times ahead I suspect.
The failure of Flight Ops management to address any of the BA pilot's concerns, coupled with recent unrealistic schedules, appears to have resulted in a withdrawal of goodwill, eg. not answering phones on days off.
Interesting times ahead I suspect.
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BA Pilots are gettng very switched on at avoiding forced draft, which is being used way beyond the agreement. This is pissing BA off no end.
BA are using a variety of methods to catch pilots in the force draft net. These include:
1. Calling you from ops staff personal mobiles.
2. FCDMs Acars-ing a/c and asking you to call them ASAP.
3. Dispatchers asking you to call Ops / FCDM urgently.
It appears from the BALPA forum (which I can see occasionally) that BA think the pilots are working to rule. This is due to the above avoidance of FD and a new 'Laminated Card' that spells out the industrial limits (as opposed to CAA limits). The card has been widely distributed and left in flight decks and ops areas. Pilots are learning that they can get off the a/c at the end of their industrially agreed limit, and very few are working to the CAA limits anymore.
BALPA say they have not organised a work to rule, but the pilots are getting more switched on all the time. Apparently the latest craze is for a 'Pay as you Go' mobile that only BA have the number for. Hence you know if it's them ringing.
I dont think that the dir of flt ops (LCG?) has made the pilots happy by calling them 'unprofessional'. Seems to have pissed a few guys off. Fair Cop.
BA are using a variety of methods to catch pilots in the force draft net. These include:
1. Calling you from ops staff personal mobiles.
2. FCDMs Acars-ing a/c and asking you to call them ASAP.
3. Dispatchers asking you to call Ops / FCDM urgently.
It appears from the BALPA forum (which I can see occasionally) that BA think the pilots are working to rule. This is due to the above avoidance of FD and a new 'Laminated Card' that spells out the industrial limits (as opposed to CAA limits). The card has been widely distributed and left in flight decks and ops areas. Pilots are learning that they can get off the a/c at the end of their industrially agreed limit, and very few are working to the CAA limits anymore.
BALPA say they have not organised a work to rule, but the pilots are getting more switched on all the time. Apparently the latest craze is for a 'Pay as you Go' mobile that only BA have the number for. Hence you know if it's them ringing.
I dont think that the dir of flt ops (LCG?) has made the pilots happy by calling them 'unprofessional'. Seems to have pissed a few guys off. Fair Cop.
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Guys
I'm sure our methods of avoiding forced draft (of course everyone outside BA knoes what that is) are very interesting to other airline's employees, but do we have to air our internal tactics on an internet forum?
I'm sure our methods of avoiding forced draft (of course everyone outside BA knoes what that is) are very interesting to other airline's employees, but do we have to air our internal tactics on an internet forum?
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Lets remember it is NOT a requirement to always answer your home/mobile telephone, but it is a requirement to come in when BA force draft you. (Apart from SW's opinion on the -400 fleet that pilots can refuse draft if it means they will approach 900 hrs later in the year)
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Someone from a bidline fleet can give you a better definition I expect, but as I understand it the company can require you to work on a day off, the only barrier being that they have to contact you.
Hence, having a 'work only' phone line or mobile allows you to answer your 'normal' phone for social reasons without worrying that it is work demanding you turn up on an originally rostered day off.
CPB
Hence, having a 'work only' phone line or mobile allows you to answer your 'normal' phone for social reasons without worrying that it is work demanding you turn up on an originally rostered day off.
CPB
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A day off or multiple days off. Its not uncommon to force draft people for three days trips on short haul. Obviously long haul trips are all multi-day. I'm just keeping my phone switched off these days!
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Draft is overtime. Someone phones you up and asks if you want to work extra day/s for extra cash.
Forced draft is overtime but with no element of choice. Meant to be used only in exceptional circumstances. BA calls pilot, says you're working tomorrow for x days, no choice at all. You are obliged to do the work, irrespective of any arrangements you have made.
Airbus and 777 particularly vulnerable. Obviously if BA can't get hold of you, they can't force you to work, and you get to enjoy the prearranged Christmas/birthday/weekend etc...
Pilots have become very good at avoiding the dreaded call and so BA has been left cancelling a number of flights.
Forced draft is overtime but with no element of choice. Meant to be used only in exceptional circumstances. BA calls pilot, says you're working tomorrow for x days, no choice at all. You are obliged to do the work, irrespective of any arrangements you have made.
Airbus and 777 particularly vulnerable. Obviously if BA can't get hold of you, they can't force you to work, and you get to enjoy the prearranged Christmas/birthday/weekend etc...
Pilots have become very good at avoiding the dreaded call and so BA has been left cancelling a number of flights.
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If they started paying decent rates of pay, then pilots would go in and cover the extra work. At the moment, by the time you take Gordons' 40 odd % off, it isn't worth giving up a day of your life.
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Well said . Frankly if the rate £££ was realistic then LCG , PD and DW wouldn't have the headache.
Precise figures are; minimum payment per day 4.5 hrs payable, draft element is 1.5 of that . For a new joiner (and lets face it it's the new guys who get all the stress here), it's probably £250 gross, £150 nett.
In other words, totally ****.
You couldn't get a cleaner or labourer to work for £150 a day - Well not in my area. BUT BA, expect a First officer to rush in and help out for exactly that!
The outcome, is that it creates a LOT of bad feeling.
As has been mentioned above - in previous years it used to be a reasonable sum , especially for long haul guys - but now it's a real problem for new joiners.
If any of you are thinking of joining BA then be aware;
(i) It IS PART of your contractural obligations, saying no will lead immediately to a nasty call from a manager and a threat of suspension. ( do your really need the hassle?)
(ii) Thanks to the stupid and negligent lack of foresight of BA managers there is an ACUTE pilot shortage at the moment. ( they mistakenly thought type rated 777 and A320 pilots would beat a path to their door when recruitment started a bout 7 months ago.)
There is a lot of force draft around. This week several flights were cancelled due to an Airbus pilot shortage. This shortage and lack of planning from arrogant pompous managers has a big deleterious impact on our passengers.
Sadly, BA can no longer attract applicants. Apparently Air Lingus have a surplus of pilots who will be flying for BA ( on loan ) later this year.
(iii) They (Flight managers) WILL use dirty tricks to get hold of you. As stated above. For example they have been known to leave a voice mail asking you to ask you to call a duty manager . ( Ie not the usual current ops ) When you call in, BANG, you get force drafted.
(iv) It affects junior guys more than senior pilots because they start from the bottom of the list.
(v) If you join BA this will affect you. Excuses such as Weddings, Christenings, Birthday dinners, Concert tickets are of no use. BA only see things from their point of view.
(vi) As a junior guy remember that BA has a preference bidding system, You will already be working every weekend. If you do get a weekend off then get drafted ( drafting is most common on weekends) you will be mightily upset!
All airlines, at times, expect you to work on a day off. Some pay fair compensation , others don't . In all cases you can decline if you choose.
The difference is; at BA YOU ARE CONTRACTURALLY BOUND TO WORK if req'd.
Precise figures are; minimum payment per day 4.5 hrs payable, draft element is 1.5 of that . For a new joiner (and lets face it it's the new guys who get all the stress here), it's probably £250 gross, £150 nett.
In other words, totally ****.
You couldn't get a cleaner or labourer to work for £150 a day - Well not in my area. BUT BA, expect a First officer to rush in and help out for exactly that!
The outcome, is that it creates a LOT of bad feeling.
As has been mentioned above - in previous years it used to be a reasonable sum , especially for long haul guys - but now it's a real problem for new joiners.
If any of you are thinking of joining BA then be aware;
(i) It IS PART of your contractural obligations, saying no will lead immediately to a nasty call from a manager and a threat of suspension. ( do your really need the hassle?)
(ii) Thanks to the stupid and negligent lack of foresight of BA managers there is an ACUTE pilot shortage at the moment. ( they mistakenly thought type rated 777 and A320 pilots would beat a path to their door when recruitment started a bout 7 months ago.)
There is a lot of force draft around. This week several flights were cancelled due to an Airbus pilot shortage. This shortage and lack of planning from arrogant pompous managers has a big deleterious impact on our passengers.
Sadly, BA can no longer attract applicants. Apparently Air Lingus have a surplus of pilots who will be flying for BA ( on loan ) later this year.
(iii) They (Flight managers) WILL use dirty tricks to get hold of you. As stated above. For example they have been known to leave a voice mail asking you to ask you to call a duty manager . ( Ie not the usual current ops ) When you call in, BANG, you get force drafted.
(iv) It affects junior guys more than senior pilots because they start from the bottom of the list.
(v) If you join BA this will affect you. Excuses such as Weddings, Christenings, Birthday dinners, Concert tickets are of no use. BA only see things from their point of view.
(vi) As a junior guy remember that BA has a preference bidding system, You will already be working every weekend. If you do get a weekend off then get drafted ( drafting is most common on weekends) you will be mightily upset!
All airlines, at times, expect you to work on a day off. Some pay fair compensation , others don't . In all cases you can decline if you choose.
The difference is; at BA YOU ARE CONTRACTURALLY BOUND TO WORK if req'd.
Controversial, moi?
I am astounded that some half-wit has chosen to start airing what is really only of concern to those within BA!
Shuttleworth, your post is so full of inaccuracies, unfounded generalisations and plain untruths that it is not worth even attempting a response, apart from to say that you are divorced from reality if you think that £150 nett for a junior pilot's day's work is poor pay.
Shuttleworth, your post is so full of inaccuracies, unfounded generalisations and plain untruths that it is not worth even attempting a response, apart from to say that you are divorced from reality if you think that £150 nett for a junior pilot's day's work is poor pay.
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£150 for a an 'extra' days work, is pretty crappy. I think you'll find that most decent airlines pay a bit more than that.
It doesn't matter if the crew is a 'junior' pilot (what is that by the way?) as if they aren't there, the flight doesn't go, no matter how 'senior' the other crew member.
How can you be 'forced' to work on a day off?
It doesn't matter if the crew is a 'junior' pilot (what is that by the way?) as if they aren't there, the flight doesn't go, no matter how 'senior' the other crew member.
How can you be 'forced' to work on a day off?
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 5th Jun 2005 at 23:49.
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You can't be forced to work on your day off. It's against UK employment law AND most certainly against the EU Human Rights legislation. A collective bargaining agreement like BLR's can't overrule an individuals rights to UK legal protection.
I suggest that anybody who has been force drafted sends an Email to their FM to ask if force drafting is legal. Also a letter to BALPA asking the same question. It would be very interesting to see how BA/BALPA respond.
I suggest that anybody who has been force drafted sends an Email to their FM to ask if force drafting is legal. Also a letter to BALPA asking the same question. It would be very interesting to see how BA/BALPA respond.
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Hello MMouse!
Now MM (who appears to post like some kind of pilot manager ) said ;I am astounded that some half-wit has chosen to start airing what is really only of concern to those within BA!
Hot Wings had good reasons for airing this. There have been lots of cancellations this week. Some ppruners may have been severely inconvenienced along with regular passengers. Now Flight Ops Mgt are starting a PR war. They claim it’s BALPA members working to rule. The truth is that they have totally screwed up the recruitment and fleet planning process. Some ppruners don’t have access to the BA BALPA board and it’s important that they can read the real facts. Hot Wings did the right thing.
By the way, BA’s onerous conditions of employment are of interest to some guys on Pprune because hundreds applied for jobs here. BA are unique in having the ability to suspend you if you don’t work on a day off. It may not be a PPRUNE rumour/news – but it’s certainly worth knowing.
Shuttleworth, your post is so full of inaccuracies, unfounded generalisations and plain untruths that it is not worth even attempting a response, apart from to say that you are divorced from reality if you think that £150 nett for a junior pilot's day's work is poor pay.
You'd have to be more specific here MMouse. I haven't tried to mislead anyone. Just the facts.
I agree with Maxy 101, say again slowly and others, and certainly do think 150 nett is not a fair payment for working on a day off. If you think its fair, as you say, then I suggest (i) You have severely misunderstood the responsibilities of the job and (ii) Not read all the other factors
Someone said
“As an aside I can't see why anyone would want to join BA these days, it used to be the place to be, but no more.”
That sums it up nicely!
By the way, that stupid comment about taxes and feeding starving people in Africa needs deleting fast!
Now MM (who appears to post like some kind of pilot manager ) said ;I am astounded that some half-wit has chosen to start airing what is really only of concern to those within BA!
Hot Wings had good reasons for airing this. There have been lots of cancellations this week. Some ppruners may have been severely inconvenienced along with regular passengers. Now Flight Ops Mgt are starting a PR war. They claim it’s BALPA members working to rule. The truth is that they have totally screwed up the recruitment and fleet planning process. Some ppruners don’t have access to the BA BALPA board and it’s important that they can read the real facts. Hot Wings did the right thing.
By the way, BA’s onerous conditions of employment are of interest to some guys on Pprune because hundreds applied for jobs here. BA are unique in having the ability to suspend you if you don’t work on a day off. It may not be a PPRUNE rumour/news – but it’s certainly worth knowing.
Shuttleworth, your post is so full of inaccuracies, unfounded generalisations and plain untruths that it is not worth even attempting a response, apart from to say that you are divorced from reality if you think that £150 nett for a junior pilot's day's work is poor pay.
You'd have to be more specific here MMouse. I haven't tried to mislead anyone. Just the facts.
I agree with Maxy 101, say again slowly and others, and certainly do think 150 nett is not a fair payment for working on a day off. If you think its fair, as you say, then I suggest (i) You have severely misunderstood the responsibilities of the job and (ii) Not read all the other factors
Someone said
“As an aside I can't see why anyone would want to join BA these days, it used to be the place to be, but no more.”
That sums it up nicely!
By the way, that stupid comment about taxes and feeding starving people in Africa needs deleting fast!