Pilot shortage hits BA.
Hi woodpecker
Not nitpicking, just clarifying for the sake of those not familiar with the dreaded Bidline Rules......
If BA "Draft" you, you can turn it down,
If BA "Force Draft" you, you must accept.
In theory BA will offer Draft initially to pilots in a defined ( by the Rules) order. If no one accepts BA will then Force Draft, again, in theory, in a defined order...................( which means the first sucker to pick up the telephone gets nailed)
that's the theory
Not nitpicking, just clarifying for the sake of those not familiar with the dreaded Bidline Rules......
If BA "Draft" you, you can turn it down,
If BA "Force Draft" you, you must accept.
In theory BA will offer Draft initially to pilots in a defined ( by the Rules) order. If no one accepts BA will then Force Draft, again, in theory, in a defined order...................( which means the first sucker to pick up the telephone gets nailed)
that's the theory
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Correct, "that's the theory"
If you go back to the start of bidline as we know it now there were many pilots on standby (on the stack) at home and at the airport. It was quite acceptable if you were at the "bottom of the stack" to go off and play golf (with pager).
But with time BA (in their wisdom) reduced the numbers on standby and started to use the draft facility as standby cover.
If one has the right number of crews per aircraft, together with sensible rostering (not max duty with min rest, together with min turnrounds) it could work.
Odd "drafts on the day" were cheaper than many pilots "on the stack". However BA would ignore the "draft from volunteers from the top", then, if no takers "force-draft" from the bottom of the seniority. They had their own lists of "helpful" pilots that lived locally and were able to be "drafted on the day" at very short notice. Human nature I suppose, but not within the "rules".
However, as the workload increased the number of "volunteer drafts" (starting at the top) decreased such that rosters having had no "volunteers" following numerous telephone calls had to resort to "force drafting" (from the bottom). In theory the most junior pilot would be contacted offering a "draft", and if he refuses the offer is then hit with a "force draft". If you were near the bottom, and had refused an "offer" then keep away from the phone the next time it rings 'cos it may well be a force draft!
There were stories of pilots installing an extra phone (BA only required one number) for work calls. One chap even had a red phone! If it rang and you wanted to talk to BA then answer it, if not don't!
Although amusing the tales of wives answering phones and suggested hubby was "off fishing" were numerous. Rosters even resorted, once the wife answered, to suggesting "BA here, just to let you know you husband has got stuck in JFK" to which she (off he guard) replied "but he is next to me here!!". "Fine, in that case we wish to force draft him". Now we see modern equivalents in the form of "caller id" and "call barring" taking the place of the well trained wife!
Pilots are a reasonable bunch, and will "go the extra mile" for the company as long as they don't feel the company is taking the p*ss. At the moment they feel they are.
Just a last thought, scheduling is always difficult under bidline at the beginning of each month with trips carrying in from the previous month clashing with the first trip(s) of the new month. When half term/ bank holiday weekends are also at the beginning of the month it can be desperate. June is one such month. BALPA approached the company months ago pointing out the problem and suggesting they reduce the number of trips overlapping into June, together with reducing SEPT, Simulator, route checks etc for the first few days of the month. The suggestions were ignored. BA are now paying the price with cancelled trips.
If you go back to the start of bidline as we know it now there were many pilots on standby (on the stack) at home and at the airport. It was quite acceptable if you were at the "bottom of the stack" to go off and play golf (with pager).
But with time BA (in their wisdom) reduced the numbers on standby and started to use the draft facility as standby cover.
If one has the right number of crews per aircraft, together with sensible rostering (not max duty with min rest, together with min turnrounds) it could work.
Odd "drafts on the day" were cheaper than many pilots "on the stack". However BA would ignore the "draft from volunteers from the top", then, if no takers "force-draft" from the bottom of the seniority. They had their own lists of "helpful" pilots that lived locally and were able to be "drafted on the day" at very short notice. Human nature I suppose, but not within the "rules".
However, as the workload increased the number of "volunteer drafts" (starting at the top) decreased such that rosters having had no "volunteers" following numerous telephone calls had to resort to "force drafting" (from the bottom). In theory the most junior pilot would be contacted offering a "draft", and if he refuses the offer is then hit with a "force draft". If you were near the bottom, and had refused an "offer" then keep away from the phone the next time it rings 'cos it may well be a force draft!
There were stories of pilots installing an extra phone (BA only required one number) for work calls. One chap even had a red phone! If it rang and you wanted to talk to BA then answer it, if not don't!
Although amusing the tales of wives answering phones and suggested hubby was "off fishing" were numerous. Rosters even resorted, once the wife answered, to suggesting "BA here, just to let you know you husband has got stuck in JFK" to which she (off he guard) replied "but he is next to me here!!". "Fine, in that case we wish to force draft him". Now we see modern equivalents in the form of "caller id" and "call barring" taking the place of the well trained wife!
Pilots are a reasonable bunch, and will "go the extra mile" for the company as long as they don't feel the company is taking the p*ss. At the moment they feel they are.
Just a last thought, scheduling is always difficult under bidline at the beginning of each month with trips carrying in from the previous month clashing with the first trip(s) of the new month. When half term/ bank holiday weekends are also at the beginning of the month it can be desperate. June is one such month. BALPA approached the company months ago pointing out the problem and suggesting they reduce the number of trips overlapping into June, together with reducing SEPT, Simulator, route checks etc for the first few days of the month. The suggestions were ignored. BA are now paying the price with cancelled trips.
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I wonder if another angle to all this "disruption" is that BA are looking to scrap Bidline. What a great opportunity for the company to approach more than reasonable BALPA and its very reasonable reps and suggest "Bidline isn't working" "we need to bring the pilots into the 21st Century" "We'll run any new system in parallel for 6 months" "We guarantee that you wont be worse off" Interesting times ahead, I feel.
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If they do get hold of you and it is a day off then why can't you just say you've just had 3 pints of beer? After all, you're allowed to do whatever you like on a day off...
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Never been FD'ed in 5 years. Have turned down draft on the odd occasion. Never seen anyone work to rule. Have seen people work to the CAA legal limits. Not surprised if were short of pilots. We are fairly paid. We do work hard. Last time I did draft it was worth about 500 notes a day.
Bottom Line
Bottom Line
maxy101
IMHO there seems to have been a change of mood amongst the BA BALPA Reps. Historically yes, there were perhaps too many agreements made down at the lodge or at a "College" reunion. However since the flushing out of one high profile Rep ( to management) last year and the quiet retirement of one or two others I reckon BALPA has now got a bit of spine. Hopefully the general membership has got the same.
IMHO there seems to have been a change of mood amongst the BA BALPA Reps. Historically yes, there were perhaps too many agreements made down at the lodge or at a "College" reunion. However since the flushing out of one high profile Rep ( to management) last year and the quiet retirement of one or two others I reckon BALPA has now got a bit of spine. Hopefully the general membership has got the same.
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I am absolutely against destructive actions, like a wild strike to say something. But it is of MAJOR importance that pilots stick together and speak and act as one. Our unity and professionalism are the only things we can use to negociate AND help our company move ahead.
So indeed: it's definitely (and always) time to show some spine in the talks with management. Respect and be respected, right?
Be reasonable and be treated reasonably, right?
The future's still bright!
So indeed: it's definitely (and always) time to show some spine in the talks with management. Respect and be respected, right?
Be reasonable and be treated reasonably, right?
The future's still bright!
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So, BA Pilots union, what's the objection to employing contract pilots now, then? As can be seen from this thread, BA pilots would prefer not to have forced days. Well, why not use contractors?
Many other airlines do this very successfully and they integrate with permanent full-time staff with no problems. Or I am just being too stupid to even think of suggesting such a dramatic and obviously ridiculous idea? Moaning is more fun than finding solutions!
Many other airlines do this very successfully and they integrate with permanent full-time staff with no problems. Or I am just being too stupid to even think of suggesting such a dramatic and obviously ridiculous idea? Moaning is more fun than finding solutions!
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Why not contract out all our jobs and save money? The aim is to get BA to improve starter conditions so that they can recruit people to the Airbus fleet and get the right number of pilots. Contracting out means reduced opportunities for BA pilots (fewer commands available as establishment levels shrink), and does nothing to drive up the base level of remuneration for UK pilots as a whole. Not to mention driving a coach and horses through our scope agreement. The point is moot anyway because the management don't want to pay the high costs associated with contracting out the work, they'd rather just work their own pilots into the ground as its cheaper.
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We have gone from 3500pilots to just under 3000. The company needs to recruit but appears to be having problems attracting pilots to the Shorthaul environment. What does that tell you about the deal on offer?
We all complain about the forced draft, but this is an opportunity to improve the terms and conditions on shorthaul. We are always hearing about the market rate. Well here it is. Can't get enough pilots, make the job more attractive.
Temporary pilots from whatever source allow BA to hide from the market pressures out there and prop up the current situation. Additionally why stop on that fleet? Short of 747 pilots, no problem let's pull in a few from Asia, that would help keep the pay of these pesky pilots down....
One could be forgiven for wondering if the sudden increase in Forced Draft isn't really an attempt to undermine BLR and encourage us to allow BA to pull in cheaper pilots........
We all complain about the forced draft, but this is an opportunity to improve the terms and conditions on shorthaul. We are always hearing about the market rate. Well here it is. Can't get enough pilots, make the job more attractive.
Temporary pilots from whatever source allow BA to hide from the market pressures out there and prop up the current situation. Additionally why stop on that fleet? Short of 747 pilots, no problem let's pull in a few from Asia, that would help keep the pay of these pesky pilots down....
One could be forgiven for wondering if the sudden increase in Forced Draft isn't really an attempt to undermine BLR and encourage us to allow BA to pull in cheaper pilots........
No consolation but its the same all the way down the food-chain. All airlines are trying to do more with less relying when push comes to shove on the pilots 'professionalism' to save the day. They don't employ enough, they train them too late when a problem becomes apparent and then when they scrape through another year, the managers take their bonus payments and pat themselves on the back. My company is small fry compared to BA but we do employ 350 pilots operating a mixed Boeing/Airbus fleet and industrial relations are very fragile as a second round of pay negotiations is about to be turned down or so rumour has it !
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Airlines are doing OK at the minute. For the last 3 years we've had various "excuses", som real - 9/11, Iraq war, fuel prices.
This year most airlines in the UK are doing OK and this is the time that the pilots need to claw back on their terms and conditions.
In the next couple of years we may see a recession and airlines will be clawing T&Cs back in their direction.
If we don't act now then the future will see even further reductions and degradations of both pay and conditions.
BA is at the top of the chain and if they offered a great deal to new joiners then those airlines lower down the chain would have to pay more to retain people as well.
So I fully support BA pilots in trying to improve their lot.
As for BA's current deal for new joiners, it is SO not worth it! The money is a big cut for many FOs and although the allowances make up for it, you are working more hours than most charter airlines, have a crap pension and the time to command is also a big minus point for many.
Other than new young FOs who are right at the bottom of the seniority lists at other companies, who are they hoping to attract?
This year most airlines in the UK are doing OK and this is the time that the pilots need to claw back on their terms and conditions.
In the next couple of years we may see a recession and airlines will be clawing T&Cs back in their direction.
If we don't act now then the future will see even further reductions and degradations of both pay and conditions.
BA is at the top of the chain and if they offered a great deal to new joiners then those airlines lower down the chain would have to pay more to retain people as well.
So I fully support BA pilots in trying to improve their lot.
As for BA's current deal for new joiners, it is SO not worth it! The money is a big cut for many FOs and although the allowances make up for it, you are working more hours than most charter airlines, have a crap pension and the time to command is also a big minus point for many.
Other than new young FOs who are right at the bottom of the seniority lists at other companies, who are they hoping to attract?
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Airbus Girl
I believe the current deal for BA new joiners is well worth it. I currently earn a decent salary with a low cost, however my take home with BA, even in year 1 will be £800 a month more, and only about £500 a month less than a Captain where I work. The pension is an improvement compared with now and I will be flying no more hours (currently 900 a year) yet have more days off. This is the sector where BA new joiners will come from, as you say probably not so much from the charter airlines.
Regards
I believe the current deal for BA new joiners is well worth it. I currently earn a decent salary with a low cost, however my take home with BA, even in year 1 will be £800 a month more, and only about £500 a month less than a Captain where I work. The pension is an improvement compared with now and I will be flying no more hours (currently 900 a year) yet have more days off. This is the sector where BA new joiners will come from, as you say probably not so much from the charter airlines.
Regards
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Airbus Girl.
Would you mind naming the airlines where "many FO's" earn £3600 or more NET a month (on a months flying) ???
Oh and with a pay bridge for when you get your command ?
Just can't think of that many (Maybe VS); unless you'd been with them a very long time.
Thanks.
Would you mind naming the airlines where "many FO's" earn £3600 or more NET a month (on a months flying) ???
Oh and with a pay bridge for when you get your command ?
Just can't think of that many (Maybe VS); unless you'd been with them a very long time.
Thanks.
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Here's my thought process I went through when considering application to BA. I am a SFO for a typical LCC.
Now: £41k + usual fdp package
BA: £42k + usual fdp package
Now: 1.5 years to command
BA: 12-15 (?) years to command.
No thanks! Furthermore, my age (late 30's) is such that I may never get a command (a pal of mine in BA was declined because he only had a year to go.)
Furthermore, I have personally encountered some astonishing pomposity amongst certain BA captains, and I really wouldn't enjoy that.
Finally, I'd forever have a very low seniority, and would have to endure scrag-end rosters and possibly FD!
Thanks, but no thanks. Didn't bother applying. Fine for a 22 year old looking for a long career, but not very attractive for us rated people with an established career.
Now: £41k + usual fdp package
BA: £42k + usual fdp package
Now: 1.5 years to command
BA: 12-15 (?) years to command.
No thanks! Furthermore, my age (late 30's) is such that I may never get a command (a pal of mine in BA was declined because he only had a year to go.)
Furthermore, I have personally encountered some astonishing pomposity amongst certain BA captains, and I really wouldn't enjoy that.
Finally, I'd forever have a very low seniority, and would have to endure scrag-end rosters and possibly FD!
Thanks, but no thanks. Didn't bother applying. Fine for a 22 year old looking for a long career, but not very attractive for us rated people with an established career.
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Stu
I think you have hit the nail on the head. It's all ok if you are just starting out but BA is after experienced and type rated DEPs. To this group, the long time to command alone undermines the deal.
We hear so much about market forces. Well it works both ways.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. It's all ok if you are just starting out but BA is after experienced and type rated DEPs. To this group, the long time to command alone undermines the deal.
We hear so much about market forces. Well it works both ways.
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The Greaser, what you failed to mention is that you make more cash and get a few days off more per month but you end up spending it downroute whilst spending loads of time away from home.
Pressure on marriage, seeing your kids etc etc
Great opportunity but no thanks.
If it's such a long time to command why the pressure to recruit experienced DEP's? Surely experience levels in BA aren't that bad?
Pressure on marriage, seeing your kids etc etc
Great opportunity but no thanks.
If it's such a long time to command why the pressure to recruit experienced DEP's? Surely experience levels in BA aren't that bad?
Scottie
I believe the idea is the experienced DEPs are recruited to go straight onto the 777 (something to do with having the hours for the ATPL and hence the DEPs are able to do the "heavy" pilot/acting pilot in Command job on the long range sectors). BTW If you fancy some sport and want to open another can of worms you might want to ask why BA don't need/aren't recruiting DEPs direct onto the 747 as well...........
Stu/Diesel
IMHO you are spot on in your assessment.
Rgds all
I believe the idea is the experienced DEPs are recruited to go straight onto the 777 (something to do with having the hours for the ATPL and hence the DEPs are able to do the "heavy" pilot/acting pilot in Command job on the long range sectors). BTW If you fancy some sport and want to open another can of worms you might want to ask why BA don't need/aren't recruiting DEPs direct onto the 747 as well...........
Stu/Diesel
IMHO you are spot on in your assessment.
Rgds all