Are the airlines heading for a training crunch?
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Some airlines will still not learn from this. They will still stick to poaching, ask to pay for type and get away with it. Finally world wide a/c are begining to get grounded due to pilot shortage, Air Asia has been forced to jump start a cadet program.
Changes are showing ? For how long ?
Changes are showing ? For how long ?
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and lastly and probably least favourable in the popularity stakes every pilot underestimates the cost of training in a airline.
TWOTBAGS... you have it spot on mate.
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MEEB.
why dubious credibility ?
if you're a flight examiner on the 73 you should know what it costs.
while I would like to see what twotbags says play out, i don't think it's going to happen any time soon.
it doesn't mean I don't want things to change, of course I do but I just don't see it. mind you, I hope to be proved wrong.
why dubious credibility ?
if you're a flight examiner on the 73 you should know what it costs.while I would like to see what twotbags says play out, i don't think it's going to happen any time soon.
it doesn't mean I don't want things to change, of course I do but I just don't see it. mind you, I hope to be proved wrong.
TWOTBAGS,
can only agree. Excellent post. Should be read not only by wannabes.
Buying jobs through self funded type ratings is sickening. Not a single new job will be created by buying a type rating. Or look at those so called hour building programs
Guys and gals think about it. Most of us payed a fortune for our licence. And now top it with another 20-40k to get a rating? Where do you draw the line? I know where mine is.
And yes I hope at least some of those slave-drivers will pay the price.
can only agree. Excellent post. Should be read not only by wannabes.
Buying jobs through self funded type ratings is sickening. Not a single new job will be created by buying a type rating. Or look at those so called hour building programs
Guys and gals think about it. Most of us payed a fortune for our licence. And now top it with another 20-40k to get a rating? Where do you draw the line? I know where mine is.
And yes I hope at least some of those slave-drivers will pay the price.
stilljustanothernumber
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Blame CTC?
I'd say that the CTC/ATP scheme is the worst thing to happen to UK aviation in the last 20 years.
Some people complained at the time it started, most of us just ignored it. Maybe BALPA should have taken a stand?
Some people complained at the time it started, most of us just ignored it. Maybe BALPA should have taken a stand?
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I'd second that re. CTC/ATP.
TWOTBAGS, spot on! Having worked in the airline industry for a while now (albeit not in a flying capacity
), I can say that apart from frontline/operational staff, i.e. Flight Crew, Cabin Crew and Engineers, most people in the airlines (and especially the bean counters that seem to run the show to the exclusion of everybody else these days) don't have a clue about the airline industry or what they're doing! It can actually be quite frightening at times...
TWOTBAGS, spot on! Having worked in the airline industry for a while now (albeit not in a flying capacity
), I can say that apart from frontline/operational staff, i.e. Flight Crew, Cabin Crew and Engineers, most people in the airlines (and especially the bean counters that seem to run the show to the exclusion of everybody else these days) don't have a clue about the airline industry or what they're doing! It can actually be quite frightening at times...
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another no man's land airmen
TWOTBAGS,
You are taking the words out of my mouth, could not have said it better than you did and with humor too, excellent!
The wheel is turning, will see very soon...
Keep faith
You are taking the words out of my mouth, could not have said it better than you did and with humor too, excellent!
The wheel is turning, will see very soon...
Keep faith
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__________________________________________________
Reality 2: Ex- Military pilots are different to Civilian trained guys.
True. Military pilot get the best of training for few occasions and civil guys get minimal training for every occasion.
Mission.
Military: Fly from A to A, drop ordinance, don’t get shot at.
Civil: Fly from A to B to C back to B then D and maybe A, drop passengers, don’t get yelled at.
Planning.
Military: Two days, best intel, sim session. 1 hour flight, 1 landing.
Civil: 15 mins, on the net, 6 hours flight time, 4-6 landings.
Training.
Military: In the sim as much as the real thing, training for every contingency possible for each mission.
Civil: Twice a year for a few hours, doing thing that you will never do in reality (hopefully).
Maintenance:
Military: Whatever part you need we got, if not, we have several spare aircraft, your tax dollar at work.
Civil: Whatever you want we don’t got, no spare aircraft, maintained by the lowest bidder.
So yes there is a difference, a cultural difference, between that of the bureaucratic government world and the commercial reality world.
We are not having a dig at the military, we (several of us were guests at a military function over the weekend in fact) are having a go at the attitude that some (not all) bring with them to the commercial world.
____________________________________________________
Twotbags
This stereotype of mil pilots is a little off the mark. It may be relevant to some fast jet squadrons, but I wouldn't know about that.
The majority of pilots in the RAF are ME guys, and I think this is a little closer:
1. Pilots complete 12 sims per year, covering all aspects of aviation in great depth. Bear in mind they already have ~250 hrs of high quality flying training behind them.
2. Mil ME pilots fly to all the same places as the airlines, as well as trying not to get shot at, and avoiding getting shouted at by our passengers.
3. We plan the same way as you guys, without a decent dispatch service. We also fly to non-scheduled destinations, requiring extra planning and procedures.
4. Yes, we do train for every contingency in the sim. This hones our decision making and CRM in the worst possible scenario.
5. The RAF has a far greater lack of spares than any airline on earth. No company could operate on the unservicabilty rate of the RAF and expect to stay in business. We are not the cash cow we used to be. The RAF has been stripped to the bare bones, and we have no flex left. Tasks are cancelled daily due to lack of aircraft.
I'm not really sure what your point was about the military pilots, but you need to be aware that there is a broad spectrum of military pilots out there.
All mil pilots accept that they will have to "Do their time" as an FO when transferring to an airline, but please realise that most of the mil pilots out there do a very similar job to their airline contempories.
There are a lot of very experienced mil ME pilots leaving at the moment, and most will be looking for airline employment. I guess they will look quite attractive to an airline, as they have a good base level of knowledge and ability. I don't know how this will affect the job chances for cadets and TP pilots looking for advancement, but I estimate about 50 experienced mil ME captains will hit the market in 2005.
As for how many are willing to pay for a TR, hopefully a big fat Zero!
Reality 2: Ex- Military pilots are different to Civilian trained guys.
True. Military pilot get the best of training for few occasions and civil guys get minimal training for every occasion.
Mission.
Military: Fly from A to A, drop ordinance, don’t get shot at.
Civil: Fly from A to B to C back to B then D and maybe A, drop passengers, don’t get yelled at.
Planning.
Military: Two days, best intel, sim session. 1 hour flight, 1 landing.
Civil: 15 mins, on the net, 6 hours flight time, 4-6 landings.
Training.
Military: In the sim as much as the real thing, training for every contingency possible for each mission.
Civil: Twice a year for a few hours, doing thing that you will never do in reality (hopefully).
Maintenance:
Military: Whatever part you need we got, if not, we have several spare aircraft, your tax dollar at work.
Civil: Whatever you want we don’t got, no spare aircraft, maintained by the lowest bidder.
So yes there is a difference, a cultural difference, between that of the bureaucratic government world and the commercial reality world.
We are not having a dig at the military, we (several of us were guests at a military function over the weekend in fact) are having a go at the attitude that some (not all) bring with them to the commercial world.
____________________________________________________
Twotbags
This stereotype of mil pilots is a little off the mark. It may be relevant to some fast jet squadrons, but I wouldn't know about that.
The majority of pilots in the RAF are ME guys, and I think this is a little closer:
1. Pilots complete 12 sims per year, covering all aspects of aviation in great depth. Bear in mind they already have ~250 hrs of high quality flying training behind them.
2. Mil ME pilots fly to all the same places as the airlines, as well as trying not to get shot at, and avoiding getting shouted at by our passengers.
3. We plan the same way as you guys, without a decent dispatch service. We also fly to non-scheduled destinations, requiring extra planning and procedures.
4. Yes, we do train for every contingency in the sim. This hones our decision making and CRM in the worst possible scenario.
5. The RAF has a far greater lack of spares than any airline on earth. No company could operate on the unservicabilty rate of the RAF and expect to stay in business. We are not the cash cow we used to be. The RAF has been stripped to the bare bones, and we have no flex left. Tasks are cancelled daily due to lack of aircraft.
I'm not really sure what your point was about the military pilots, but you need to be aware that there is a broad spectrum of military pilots out there.
All mil pilots accept that they will have to "Do their time" as an FO when transferring to an airline, but please realise that most of the mil pilots out there do a very similar job to their airline contempories.
There are a lot of very experienced mil ME pilots leaving at the moment, and most will be looking for airline employment. I guess they will look quite attractive to an airline, as they have a good base level of knowledge and ability. I don't know how this will affect the job chances for cadets and TP pilots looking for advancement, but I estimate about 50 experienced mil ME captains will hit the market in 2005.
As for how many are willing to pay for a TR, hopefully a big fat Zero!
Thread Starter
Very fair point P-T-Gamekeeper,
The generalisation is aimed more that the knucklehead than the trashie.
As to the operational tempo of the RAF and the issues faced there now, back a few ….. (ok plenty) of years ago the RAF was different…. Cold war days.
Our referral was pretty much summed up by a present and serving fast jet crew from somewhere here on the continent! They got more spares and sim time than they know what to do with. As said some of us are ex mil and still have very close contact.
12 sims per year is a hell of a lot more than any civi line driver gets. One of our compatriots, basically sims a mission then flys the mission, not talking A to A BVR, how about low level night moving mud!
As to suitability speak to any NON ex mil AB driver about the quality of some (say again SOME) of their ex mil drivers. The last mohecian will testify.
Trashies are a different bread, and we love’em.
A case in point was a while back when some of us were flying with a lot of ex-mil guys, several questions were raised and it turns out that upon completion of service these guys fronted to their local DGAC/LBA/CAA/ Insert acronym… and the friendly ex Mil office staffer was able to issue National Civil licences over the counter.
No exams, no tests, just a simple paperwork exercise.
Now we are now all part of the same happy JAR family, and these guys are still ploughing along at .8 in the same airspace as you.
Not everything that happens makes the news, (E170 FRA- ring bells) and there are many cover ups, by companies and authorities.
Now back to topic.
It seems to us that the majority of you agree that there is a problem coming. What do we do proactively, we already know that it takes a decent amount of intestinal fortitude. However this attribute is generally lacking in a 20 yo fresh from the sausage factor with daddys money to burn.
The generalisation is aimed more that the knucklehead than the trashie.
As to the operational tempo of the RAF and the issues faced there now, back a few ….. (ok plenty) of years ago the RAF was different…. Cold war days.
Our referral was pretty much summed up by a present and serving fast jet crew from somewhere here on the continent! They got more spares and sim time than they know what to do with. As said some of us are ex mil and still have very close contact.
12 sims per year is a hell of a lot more than any civi line driver gets. One of our compatriots, basically sims a mission then flys the mission, not talking A to A BVR, how about low level night moving mud!
As to suitability speak to any NON ex mil AB driver about the quality of some (say again SOME) of their ex mil drivers. The last mohecian will testify.
Trashies are a different bread, and we love’em.
A case in point was a while back when some of us were flying with a lot of ex-mil guys, several questions were raised and it turns out that upon completion of service these guys fronted to their local DGAC/LBA/CAA/ Insert acronym… and the friendly ex Mil office staffer was able to issue National Civil licences over the counter.
No exams, no tests, just a simple paperwork exercise.
Now we are now all part of the same happy JAR family, and these guys are still ploughing along at .8 in the same airspace as you.
Not everything that happens makes the news, (E170 FRA- ring bells) and there are many cover ups, by companies and authorities.
Now back to topic.
It seems to us that the majority of you agree that there is a problem coming. What do we do proactively, we already know that it takes a decent amount of intestinal fortitude. However this attribute is generally lacking in a 20 yo fresh from the sausage factor with daddys money to burn.
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Airlines and training schools should have a closer relationship and only train the number of forecast pilots required plus a contigency.
Rather than be allowed to train hundreds who then have to wait months if not years for a job and will pay more to get type ratings.
Of course, this could never happen as most airlines cannot plan to end of the day, never mind to the end of next year.
Airlines should not be allowed to use future employees to fund its own expansion.
Rather than be allowed to train hundreds who then have to wait months if not years for a job and will pay more to get type ratings.
Of course, this could never happen as most airlines cannot plan to end of the day, never mind to the end of next year.
Airlines should not be allowed to use future employees to fund its own expansion.
Thread Starter
No we beg to differ Airline & schools should NOT be closer.
It will only lead to elitism and social casting, these are things we definately dont need from the guy you will be sitting next to time and again. There are many dedicated self improvers who have demonstrated not only the ability to pass exams/flight test/aptitude tests etc all the while self funding their passion.
Most of us got into this business because of passion, my first flight was with the air cadets at 14 yo and I was hook, my passion began earlier.
Too many of the current crop are dazzled by the lights and the BS that the schools spin only to get student through the door.
There is a place for cadet scholarship programs, as there is for self improvers, and those funded by the taxpayer.
However their needs to be a level playing field for all, and this should be determined by experience, not the ability to subsidise a prospective employer.
It will only lead to elitism and social casting
It will only lead to elitism and social casting, these are things we definately dont need from the guy you will be sitting next to time and again. There are many dedicated self improvers who have demonstrated not only the ability to pass exams/flight test/aptitude tests etc all the while self funding their passion.
Most of us got into this business because of passion, my first flight was with the air cadets at 14 yo and I was hook, my passion began earlier.
Too many of the current crop are dazzled by the lights and the BS that the schools spin only to get student through the door.
There is a place for cadet scholarship programs, as there is for self improvers, and those funded by the taxpayer.
However their needs to be a level playing field for all, and this should be determined by experience, not the ability to subsidise a prospective employer.
It will only lead to elitism and social casting
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I'w with you twotbags.
But what do you propose we do? I'm learning, and I certainly do NOT agree with paying for a type rating. But, after I'll have spent all my monies, and the only people to offer me a job are the ones who say "here you go, a shiny new boeingbus 73-20, now just hand over £20,000 for TR, otherwise get out" what am I to do? Do I say no and hope the next person along does the same, therefore forcing a pilot shortage to priotise the TR and the company pays. Or yes and get a job (heavily in debt, mind) doing what I want to do.
Of course if everyone agreed not to pay for a type rating, a sort of union, then the airlines would have to change.
Anyone want to start a group of Pilots Against Self-funded Type ratings (PAST)
I'm in!!
But what do you propose we do? I'm learning, and I certainly do NOT agree with paying for a type rating. But, after I'll have spent all my monies, and the only people to offer me a job are the ones who say "here you go, a shiny new boeingbus 73-20, now just hand over £20,000 for TR, otherwise get out" what am I to do? Do I say no and hope the next person along does the same, therefore forcing a pilot shortage to priotise the TR and the company pays. Or yes and get a job (heavily in debt, mind) doing what I want to do.
Of course if everyone agreed not to pay for a type rating, a sort of union, then the airlines would have to change.
Anyone want to start a group of Pilots Against Self-funded Type ratings (PAST)
I'm in!!
Thread Starter
Is this an option?
I got an email from one of the group and it basically translates to this:
This may be a way forward:
In association with all the various Pilot Representative Bodies (ECA, BALPA, IAPA, Vereinigung Cockpit, etc) we petition the European Airline Association and similar organizations to adopt a code of practice in line with the current practice in nearly all airlines, seniority and aptitude.
That is a tried and tested method, based upon the following parameters:
Date of professional licence issue.
Experience to date. Flight Time and actual qualifications, Not just possession of a type rating (remembering they have to line train you anyway)
Also to keep the airlines happy they have their own hiring order like such:
Company Sponsored Cadet
Experienced Professional Licence Holders
Inexperienced Professional Licence Holders
Pilots wishing to join this system will have a seniority number based upon licence date. The EC Human rights and EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES commission can fund it, (they fund just about anything else).
Administered by the European Cockpit Association and open to pilots NOT currently employed. Open European wide for all JAR licence holders, one caveat may be language, where an airline may select a candidate that speaks the local language in preference to one that does not.
[This may be a point of contention as generally English has been adopted by the majority of operators as a common cockpit language, yet a grasp of the local language may be a prerequisite]
It works like this:
Airlines do this;
When a job vacancy exists they will contact the ECA, who will provide basic details of say the first 100 people on the list of those that meet the parameters as chosen by the airline.
The airline vets the candidates fine tuning the selection, this may include restrictions on age (just as may airlines currently do eg HF if over 29yo must have >500 hr (or similar)) and invites those interested to attend an interview. (Many may not want to move to XYZ to fly and ABC, so the net will be cast wide)
Preference will be given to AIRLINE FUNDED CADETS, that is those pilots that have attended a sponsorship scheme, like in the old days.
Next will be self funded applicants with a hierarchy based upon, Licence Date of Issue, Fight time experience and lastly type rating.
Next will be self funded applicants with a basic licence and no experience type rating or not.
Pilots do this;
Upon being un-employed the pilot applies to the ECA and completes and application (online) where they will be given a seniority number first based on licence issue date, secondly on total time, thirdly on experience.
The candidate will not receive the number this is only for the ECA to use to track those job seekers.
When your numbers up your numbers up.
Pros & Cons.
AIRLINE FUNDED CADETS. Not many of them about these days, LH makes a killing on those who past muster, ditto those who use the Intercockpit scheme. So all those guys who pay for the training will eventually be hired by the Legacy carriers and in this case I do see reason.
The legacy airline (LH,BA, AF, KL whom ever) has vetted these guys already, and trained them in the manner they want for direct entry, be it SO/FO.
The benefit of this is that it removes this bunch from the pool of unemployed.
Flight crews are chosen on experience, having said this think of this scenario, how many 45+ jet jockeys and going to apply for job on a rockhopper, and move the family and all the rest of it…. Very few me thinks
Pilots in NML will have more progression based upon the experience issue, this will free up other positions and there will be movement.
OTHER ISSUES
Will this lead to more jobs?
Yes, there will be more movement, more movement means more requirements for training, more requirement means more trainers, and that means demand for those who like the TRE/TRI game.
What will it do to the industry?
Don’t shoot at this, It will push the industry more to what the rest of the world is, although GA is small in the EU it does mean that pilots will cut their teeth on a bug smasher, move to a turbine and then the airlines. NOT the current EU practice of Zero-to-hero by subsidising the airline.
What about those who are actively employed but also want to move to bigger stuff?
There will also be room for these guys, you think the likes of BA who are searching for DE bus drivers are going to take a wannabe before experienced & typed guy.
Remember this, We are dealing with the lower end here, primarily those unemployed or un-rated with out experience. If you do have experience but no type, then the same hiring requirement will apply to you.
Maybe the code of practice can include a hiring formula that will take the experienced guys and then the inexperienced will progress to the jobs vacated??
AIRLINE ISSUES
They are go to hate this. But just like the way that they would like you to do 25hr consecutive duty days, 1500 hrs per annum stick time and not pay you a cent for the privilege of flying for them.
Things will change, if a program like this is adopted by the ECA and has the backing of the EC & equal opportunities commission then there is the chance that it could happen.
Only pressure by the pilot body will bring this kind of change.
POINTS OF INTEREST.
This will happen only if the following things happen.
Existing pilot bodies stop feathering their short term nests for the long term gain of the industry. If they put the petty bickering that exists in all representative bodies aside and remember where they came from or in some cases take a moment to think that not everyone was as privileged as they were to have their training funded by someone else, be that private or public purse.
Public Knowledge.
Joe Citizen does not give a rats, as to who is flying their plane. They generally look up the front and if they see someone their age or older their happy. Little do they know the guy in the front with grey hair, has prostate/wife/house/previous wife/kid/financial/paternity and sleeping problems and the guy next to him has more spots than a leopard and before strapping into this shinny new megajet 880, only other thing he ad flown was a fibreglass or aluminium contraption probably older than the operator that weighs less than a family car.
If it was generally known that the sky’s were populated by low hour, minimal EXPERIENCE, guys paying for the privilege and not earning a salary, pre-occupied with how on earth they are going to pay off this loan……
Do you think patronage would be as high as it is?
Thank heavens Mr Boeing & Mr Bus install all those gizmos.
Would this knowledge change the attitude of the public? Probably not! These people will still complain if they get a €1 fare and no service.
Your comments.
This may be a way forward:
In association with all the various Pilot Representative Bodies (ECA, BALPA, IAPA, Vereinigung Cockpit, etc) we petition the European Airline Association and similar organizations to adopt a code of practice in line with the current practice in nearly all airlines, seniority and aptitude.
That is a tried and tested method, based upon the following parameters:
Date of professional licence issue.
Experience to date. Flight Time and actual qualifications, Not just possession of a type rating (remembering they have to line train you anyway)
Also to keep the airlines happy they have their own hiring order like such:
Company Sponsored Cadet
Experienced Professional Licence Holders
Inexperienced Professional Licence Holders
Pilots wishing to join this system will have a seniority number based upon licence date. The EC Human rights and EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES commission can fund it, (they fund just about anything else).
Administered by the European Cockpit Association and open to pilots NOT currently employed. Open European wide for all JAR licence holders, one caveat may be language, where an airline may select a candidate that speaks the local language in preference to one that does not.
[This may be a point of contention as generally English has been adopted by the majority of operators as a common cockpit language, yet a grasp of the local language may be a prerequisite]
It works like this:
Airlines do this;
When a job vacancy exists they will contact the ECA, who will provide basic details of say the first 100 people on the list of those that meet the parameters as chosen by the airline.
The airline vets the candidates fine tuning the selection, this may include restrictions on age (just as may airlines currently do eg HF if over 29yo must have >500 hr (or similar)) and invites those interested to attend an interview. (Many may not want to move to XYZ to fly and ABC, so the net will be cast wide)
Preference will be given to AIRLINE FUNDED CADETS, that is those pilots that have attended a sponsorship scheme, like in the old days.
Next will be self funded applicants with a hierarchy based upon, Licence Date of Issue, Fight time experience and lastly type rating.
Next will be self funded applicants with a basic licence and no experience type rating or not.
Pilots do this;
Upon being un-employed the pilot applies to the ECA and completes and application (online) where they will be given a seniority number first based on licence issue date, secondly on total time, thirdly on experience.
The candidate will not receive the number this is only for the ECA to use to track those job seekers.
When your numbers up your numbers up.
Pros & Cons.
AIRLINE FUNDED CADETS. Not many of them about these days, LH makes a killing on those who past muster, ditto those who use the Intercockpit scheme. So all those guys who pay for the training will eventually be hired by the Legacy carriers and in this case I do see reason.
The legacy airline (LH,BA, AF, KL whom ever) has vetted these guys already, and trained them in the manner they want for direct entry, be it SO/FO.
The benefit of this is that it removes this bunch from the pool of unemployed.
Flight crews are chosen on experience, having said this think of this scenario, how many 45+ jet jockeys and going to apply for job on a rockhopper, and move the family and all the rest of it…. Very few me thinks
Pilots in NML will have more progression based upon the experience issue, this will free up other positions and there will be movement.
OTHER ISSUES
Will this lead to more jobs?
Yes, there will be more movement, more movement means more requirements for training, more requirement means more trainers, and that means demand for those who like the TRE/TRI game.
What will it do to the industry?
Don’t shoot at this, It will push the industry more to what the rest of the world is, although GA is small in the EU it does mean that pilots will cut their teeth on a bug smasher, move to a turbine and then the airlines. NOT the current EU practice of Zero-to-hero by subsidising the airline.
What about those who are actively employed but also want to move to bigger stuff?
There will also be room for these guys, you think the likes of BA who are searching for DE bus drivers are going to take a wannabe before experienced & typed guy.
Remember this, We are dealing with the lower end here, primarily those unemployed or un-rated with out experience. If you do have experience but no type, then the same hiring requirement will apply to you.
Maybe the code of practice can include a hiring formula that will take the experienced guys and then the inexperienced will progress to the jobs vacated??
AIRLINE ISSUES
They are go to hate this. But just like the way that they would like you to do 25hr consecutive duty days, 1500 hrs per annum stick time and not pay you a cent for the privilege of flying for them.
Things will change, if a program like this is adopted by the ECA and has the backing of the EC & equal opportunities commission then there is the chance that it could happen.
Only pressure by the pilot body will bring this kind of change.
POINTS OF INTEREST.
This will happen only if the following things happen.
Existing pilot bodies stop feathering their short term nests for the long term gain of the industry. If they put the petty bickering that exists in all representative bodies aside and remember where they came from or in some cases take a moment to think that not everyone was as privileged as they were to have their training funded by someone else, be that private or public purse.
Public Knowledge.
Joe Citizen does not give a rats, as to who is flying their plane. They generally look up the front and if they see someone their age or older their happy. Little do they know the guy in the front with grey hair, has prostate/wife/house/previous wife/kid/financial/paternity and sleeping problems and the guy next to him has more spots than a leopard and before strapping into this shinny new megajet 880, only other thing he ad flown was a fibreglass or aluminium contraption probably older than the operator that weighs less than a family car.
If it was generally known that the sky’s were populated by low hour, minimal EXPERIENCE, guys paying for the privilege and not earning a salary, pre-occupied with how on earth they are going to pay off this loan……
Do you think patronage would be as high as it is?
Thank heavens Mr Boeing & Mr Bus install all those gizmos.
Would this knowledge change the attitude of the public? Probably not! These people will still complain if they get a €1 fare and no service.
Your comments.
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A great concept, but I don't think it will pass muster in the eyes of the law. Employment law is firmly embedded in the EU, and at first glance, I think this has no chance, as it restricts the right of an individual.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
How about changing the current practice of logging P1 US from the right hand seat?
P1 time should be just that. P1 in the left seat.
For the ATPL issue you need eg 250 hours P1. Not P1 US or however it's dressed up now.
This is different to trainee captains sitting in the left seat with training/check captains occupying the right seat.
I think a mind set change would need to happen too. After getting the CPL/IR (not fATPL....) pilots should view their subsequent hours as "working" not "hour building". I realise that in the end it's the same thing but the attitude would be different. Working implies a job with remuneration.
P1 time should be just that. P1 in the left seat.
For the ATPL issue you need eg 250 hours P1. Not P1 US or however it's dressed up now.
This is different to trainee captains sitting in the left seat with training/check captains occupying the right seat.
I think a mind set change would need to happen too. After getting the CPL/IR (not fATPL....) pilots should view their subsequent hours as "working" not "hour building". I realise that in the end it's the same thing but the attitude would be different. Working implies a job with remuneration.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Wannabe pilot utopia! Keep taking the drugs and it'll be alright.
Seriously though, I think you'll find that it will be market forces that dictate what will happen, just as the "zero to hero" market has boomed. Unless there is an accident and it is found that one of the main causes was due to the method by which one of the pilots got their relevant seat there isn't going to be any effort by the relevant authorities to stop jet type ratings being flogged to enthusiastic fATPL holders. We live in a free market economy and unless you advocate a Soviet style mother/father state where government dictates how you should run your life then it ain't gonna happen.
As long as the market is in an upswing, as it is now, there are going to be problems for the airlines. As we know, there is no shortage of fATPL holders who have succumbed to the flight schools visions of "zero to hero" in just over a year. The real shortage is of experienced pilots who can move up the food chain. Yes, anyone with an ounce of ability and enthusiasm can be trained to fly a jet. The problem for the airlines is the amount of time and training required to get the candidate to the required standard.
Maybe in this utopian world we should allow fATPL holders to pay for just a small turboprop type rating. Enough to get them a chance to work doing air taxi work or similar? Then you would expect the commuter airlines to absorb them after a few years onto larger turboprops. Several years later they can be absorbed further up the food chain to regional jet operations and so on and so forth until they reach the hallowed halls of large jet operations. Oh hang on... isn't that how it still operates in many parts of the industry?
Perhaps we should just have all wannabes surgically operated on at fATPL issue to remove the 'impatience' gene that causes so many of them to become potential "zero to hero" candidates with no real experience of what 'learning a trade or skill' is really all about. Feathering nests is a human trait and you can't expect those that have achieved their positions through hard work, perseverance and basically 'moving up the food chain' to expect to make it too easy for the airlines, especially since they have had such a feeding frenzy on our terms and conditions for the last few years.
The real solution would be for the airlines to have to bite the bullet, pay the going market rate for experienced pilots and fork out enough money to plan their training requirements properly in the first place. Unfortunately, the Harvard School of Management is only now beginning to reap the harvest of its flawed doctrine of teaching all their managers and accountants understand the price of everything and the value of nothing. Even the legacy carriers are suffering at the moment, not with enough experienced pilot applicants but with poorly planned and under budgeted training departments struggling to get enough pilots trained on to their current types.
It's all good news for the enthusiastic, realistic and persevering wannabes who have faith that they will acquire the necessary experience by working their way up the food chain. The impatient ones who have gone from "zero to hero" are probably working their proverbials off for one of the LoCo's and now that the shine has gone off are wondering how they are ever going to move up the chain to a legacy carrier. Unfortunately, the perfect, utopian world is like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. You know it's there but you can never reach it. Perhaps it's time to knuckle down to the realisation where exactly you are in the food chain and making the most of it until your time eventually comes. It does for most of us.
Keep taking the drugs and it'll be alright.Seriously though, I think you'll find that it will be market forces that dictate what will happen, just as the "zero to hero" market has boomed. Unless there is an accident and it is found that one of the main causes was due to the method by which one of the pilots got their relevant seat there isn't going to be any effort by the relevant authorities to stop jet type ratings being flogged to enthusiastic fATPL holders. We live in a free market economy and unless you advocate a Soviet style mother/father state where government dictates how you should run your life then it ain't gonna happen.
As long as the market is in an upswing, as it is now, there are going to be problems for the airlines. As we know, there is no shortage of fATPL holders who have succumbed to the flight schools visions of "zero to hero" in just over a year. The real shortage is of experienced pilots who can move up the food chain. Yes, anyone with an ounce of ability and enthusiasm can be trained to fly a jet. The problem for the airlines is the amount of time and training required to get the candidate to the required standard.
Maybe in this utopian world we should allow fATPL holders to pay for just a small turboprop type rating. Enough to get them a chance to work doing air taxi work or similar? Then you would expect the commuter airlines to absorb them after a few years onto larger turboprops. Several years later they can be absorbed further up the food chain to regional jet operations and so on and so forth until they reach the hallowed halls of large jet operations. Oh hang on... isn't that how it still operates in many parts of the industry?
Perhaps we should just have all wannabes surgically operated on at fATPL issue to remove the 'impatience' gene that causes so many of them to become potential "zero to hero" candidates with no real experience of what 'learning a trade or skill' is really all about. Feathering nests is a human trait and you can't expect those that have achieved their positions through hard work, perseverance and basically 'moving up the food chain' to expect to make it too easy for the airlines, especially since they have had such a feeding frenzy on our terms and conditions for the last few years.
The real solution would be for the airlines to have to bite the bullet, pay the going market rate for experienced pilots and fork out enough money to plan their training requirements properly in the first place. Unfortunately, the Harvard School of Management is only now beginning to reap the harvest of its flawed doctrine of teaching all their managers and accountants understand the price of everything and the value of nothing. Even the legacy carriers are suffering at the moment, not with enough experienced pilot applicants but with poorly planned and under budgeted training departments struggling to get enough pilots trained on to their current types.
It's all good news for the enthusiastic, realistic and persevering wannabes who have faith that they will acquire the necessary experience by working their way up the food chain. The impatient ones who have gone from "zero to hero" are probably working their proverbials off for one of the LoCo's and now that the shine has gone off are wondering how they are ever going to move up the chain to a legacy carrier. Unfortunately, the perfect, utopian world is like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. You know it's there but you can never reach it. Perhaps it's time to knuckle down to the realisation where exactly you are in the food chain and making the most of it until your time eventually comes. It does for most of us.
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Unwiseowl: BALPA make a stand? Not going to happen. Ever! But I'm sure that you know that. But I agree about the CTC scheme. It has shor circuited those of us who have done self-sponsored, self-improver type training followed by turbo-prop 'apprenticeship', and consigned the 'traditional' career structure to history, and with it alot of experience. in my opinion the CTC scheme is akin to taking a medical student from the first year of a medical degree to being a senior registrar surgeon in one easy leap, and the general public wouldn't like that, and neither would the BMA. So why did BALPA let it go? I have no idea.
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I'm sorry, comparing medical careers is like comparing apples with pears, they are two different things with different drivers and consequences. I really do think we should not go down that road. After all flagship carriers have, until recently, successfully trained their own guys from "zero to hero" through sponsorships, which most people on the site seem to lament the demise of.