Standby AFTER a duty.
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Standby AFTER a duty.
A quick question.
Is having a Standby after your duty legal?? I cannot see how it can be, since once you're off duty, then you have to have minimum rest before coming back on duty.
If I'm right, why would my compny continually roster standby's on the back of duties that don't use the full FDP.
Thanks.
Is having a Standby after your duty legal?? I cannot see how it can be, since once you're off duty, then you have to have minimum rest before coming back on duty.
If I'm right, why would my compny continually roster standby's on the back of duties that don't use the full FDP.
Thanks.
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I am assuming the the company count it as a continuous duty otherwise you would require the 12 hour minimum rest period. We sometimes have to do airport standbys if for some reason our rostered duty is cut short (most likely unable to do final 2 sectors of a 4 sector day due to delay running past max allowable fdp). I however have never heard of an (in advance) rostered duty as you have mentioned. Sounds like a nuisance but probably quite legal.
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Quite common in my company. If your roster has you flying 2 or 4 sectors then standby for a few hours it's perfectly legal as long as you are within your FDP. Also, just because you have flown your two sectors or whatever does not mean you are off duty, your duty is what you are rostered for.
If on the other hand, you flew a rostered duty and on completion were told to go on standby I think you may be able to refuse if you so chose, but again I don't think this would be illegal.(Assuming any potential callout flight could still be completed within FDP)
If on the other hand, you flew a rostered duty and on completion were told to go on standby I think you may be able to refuse if you so chose, but again I don't think this would be illegal.(Assuming any potential callout flight could still be completed within FDP)
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Having you on SBY for a period after immediately following an FDP is perfectly legal, so long as the total duty time is taken again as rest. It can be a useful period for crew schedullers when they know they are tight on next day cover. Having someone on SBY following an FDP gives them an extra couple of hrs to look forward and re-assign a duty the next day and thus removing the worry of trying to make contact with someone who has finished an FDP and who has switched off the phone !!
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This is just another example of crap organisation where we as pilots get dicked about to cover the holes.
On occasion it may be acceptable but as a matter of course it implies roster disruption and is not acceptable.
It simply reflects a poor company culture.
On occasion it may be acceptable but as a matter of course it implies roster disruption and is not acceptable.
It simply reflects a poor company culture.
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If you have flown 2 sectors and are then asked to do a SBY then it must be as a continuous duty and having already operated, your FDP, not DP, continues and all the while, your maximum allowable FDP is ticking away until you reach the time when you can't go anywhere anyway because you'll be out of hours if you did.
Your subsequent rest period then needs to be based on your total duty, from report time until such time as you go off duty (after SBY) and this rest period would not commence until having finished the period of SBY.
Yes, this is legal and is normally associated with smaller operators, where profit margins may be tight thus in everyone's interest, to keep themselves employed, to be available should an adhoc flight or charter materialise.
No real need for such an outburst as above without knowing more about particular circumstances.
Your subsequent rest period then needs to be based on your total duty, from report time until such time as you go off duty (after SBY) and this rest period would not commence until having finished the period of SBY.
Yes, this is legal and is normally associated with smaller operators, where profit margins may be tight thus in everyone's interest, to keep themselves employed, to be available should an adhoc flight or charter materialise.
No real need for such an outburst as above without knowing more about particular circumstances.
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I work for one of the small turboprop operators and we are rosted standby after duties on a very regular basis. In fact we are almost always rostered on standby (before or after) if we are only doing two or three sectors. Its a real pain doing two sectors, going home and then getting called back again!!! Fortunately that doesnt happen too often!
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Phileas Fogg
If you haven't suffered- and I mean suffered - the effects of unacceptable rostering you are in no position to judge how I or others feel about this issue!! PM me if you would like some education on the subject.
If you haven't suffered- and I mean suffered - the effects of unacceptable rostering you are in no position to judge how I or others feel about this issue!! PM me if you would like some education on the subject.
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Woolley,
I'm not going to enter into the slanging match that you are so obviously chomping at the bit to start nor do I believe you are in a position to 'educate' me about rostering. You obviously don't appreciate real 'suffering', CAP371, if these are the regulations you work to, are there to protect 'real' suffering.
OK, you'll get some unsavoury duties along the way that you'd prefer not to do, but real suffering, don't make me laugh!
I'm not going to enter into the slanging match that you are so obviously chomping at the bit to start nor do I believe you are in a position to 'educate' me about rostering. You obviously don't appreciate real 'suffering', CAP371, if these are the regulations you work to, are there to protect 'real' suffering.
OK, you'll get some unsavoury duties along the way that you'd prefer not to do, but real suffering, don't make me laugh!
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Stan
Is it more the case you dont like doing sby after a FDP rather than it being crap and unacceptable. You cannot make comment unless you know Mobsters airline, its schedule and the way the Airline works. Would it for example suit you to have one crew doing a short FDP then going home and another doing the sby?.
And who will be moaning about being on standby - you !
Is it more the case you dont like doing sby after a FDP rather than it being crap and unacceptable. You cannot make comment unless you know Mobsters airline, its schedule and the way the Airline works. Would it for example suit you to have one crew doing a short FDP then going home and another doing the sby?.
And who will be moaning about being on standby - you !
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Of course I don't like it, because it is unreasonable! How would you like to have a roster that you could plan nothing by? Most of the people who think this type of thing is acceptable are not pilots.
If you've already done a days flying it is reasonable to be able to switch off and go home. If you need someone to do another flight then call out the STANDBY crew. What STANDBY crew you ask? The one you have when you crew the airline in a reasonable and sensible way.
You guys who haven't experienced life under these regimes haven't a clue what it's like and I object to being told that 'it's legal' by someone who hasn't been there !
If you've already done a days flying it is reasonable to be able to switch off and go home. If you need someone to do another flight then call out the STANDBY crew. What STANDBY crew you ask? The one you have when you crew the airline in a reasonable and sensible way.
You guys who haven't experienced life under these regimes haven't a clue what it's like and I object to being told that 'it's legal' by someone who hasn't been there !
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Woolley,
Are you saying it is illegal then? Is this what you mean by educating? Please explain how it is not legal?
We'd all love to work a 4 hour duty then b*gger off down the pub, I guess this is what you mean by 'real suffering'!
'You guys who haven't experienced life under these regimes'
I've been there, done that, got the JEM T-shirt, still wanting to educate me?
Are you saying it is illegal then? Is this what you mean by educating? Please explain how it is not legal?
We'd all love to work a 4 hour duty then b*gger off down the pub, I guess this is what you mean by 'real suffering'!
'You guys who haven't experienced life under these regimes'
I've been there, done that, got the JEM T-shirt, still wanting to educate me?
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Woolley,
Read the thread question, is it legal?
I answered the question factually and provided information regarding other factors that should be taken into consideration when performing such a duty.
What have you contributed to this thread? I'll quote: 'I object to being told that 'it's legal'
You have absolutely no idea what my level is Woolley but I'm obviously more agile than you, I'm not carrying that chip on my shoulder!
Amen
Read the thread question, is it legal?
I answered the question factually and provided information regarding other factors that should be taken into consideration when performing such a duty.
What have you contributed to this thread? I'll quote: 'I object to being told that 'it's legal'
You have absolutely no idea what my level is Woolley but I'm obviously more agile than you, I'm not carrying that chip on my shoulder!
Amen
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Phileas
Mobster lover is questioning the legality of such duties.
I have made it quite clear that although it may be legal it is not reasonable in my view as it implies roster instability which in fact raises the question of the whole roster's legality.
If I have a chip on my shoulder it is there from hard experience in exactly this area. Roster guys 900 hrs a year but don't take the p*ss at the same time.
Mobster lover is questioning the legality of such duties.
I have made it quite clear that although it may be legal it is not reasonable in my view as it implies roster instability which in fact raises the question of the whole roster's legality.
If I have a chip on my shoulder it is there from hard experience in exactly this area. Roster guys 900 hrs a year but don't take the p*ss at the same time.
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implies roster instability
The question asked about rostered flight duties followed by standby. Some days I'm rostered for a 12 hour day from report to finishing the paper work. Other days I'm rostered for a couple of hours flying, then on standby for two or three hours. If I get called for a flight then I go flying (obviously as long as it's within FDP etc.) If I don't get called by the end of the rostered standby I go home. No different from any other days flying or standby.
What exactly is the problem with that?
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Quote
If I'm right, why would my compny continually roster standby's on the back of duties that don't use the full FDP.
That is what I don't think is reasonable - see the word 'continually' ?
If you don't think that standby's everywhere lead to roster instability just consider what happens to the following days planned duty if you go flying and get back late - you can't do the planned duty - that is roster instability caused by poor planning.
It simply reflects an abusive approach to CAP 371 andcontinually doing it is not acceptable IMO.
Sounds to me like they're probably doing it just because they can, that's what I've seen before and thats what I think is abusive.
That's what I'm talking about!
If I'm right, why would my compny continually roster standby's on the back of duties that don't use the full FDP.
That is what I don't think is reasonable - see the word 'continually' ?
If you don't think that standby's everywhere lead to roster instability just consider what happens to the following days planned duty if you go flying and get back late - you can't do the planned duty - that is roster instability caused by poor planning.
It simply reflects an abusive approach to CAP 371 andcontinually doing it is not acceptable IMO.
Sounds to me like they're probably doing it just because they can, that's what I've seen before and thats what I think is abusive.
That's what I'm talking about!
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Stan
Mobsters said he hasn't done a days flying yet so i cannot see the problem. Whats your definition of a days flying?.
Are you the bloke that complains when he turns up for a PMI then gets sent to FUE, or turns in for a LCA and does a LGW-LTN ferry.
Roster stablity and legality are two different questions, one is legal, the other social.
If your querying the legality try calling the CAA and ask for Flight Ops Policy
Mobsters said he hasn't done a days flying yet so i cannot see the problem. Whats your definition of a days flying?.
Are you the bloke that complains when he turns up for a PMI then gets sent to FUE, or turns in for a LCA and does a LGW-LTN ferry.
Roster stablity and legality are two different questions, one is legal, the other social.
If your querying the legality try calling the CAA and ask for Flight Ops Policy
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Actually MR Angry because rosters are a legal requirement I believe roster stability must have a legal aspect.
It seems clear to me however that many people couldn't care less about that and that's almost certainly why many airlines these days are both a shambles and a flight safety hazard in this area.
If Mobsters not flying what is he talking about?
It seems clear to me however that many people couldn't care less about that and that's almost certainly why many airlines these days are both a shambles and a flight safety hazard in this area.
If Mobsters not flying what is he talking about?