Is Ryanair worth it?
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Is Ryanair worth it?
Recently I was contacted by one of Ryanair“s hiring companies to come down for a simulator assesment. I applied via Ryanair“s online website and did not realize they where recruiting me for contract work. I am not sure what to do now.
My current position is turbo-prop captain with no jet time at all. Therefore I see it as something very important to get my hands on some jettime as soon as possible, for otherwise I might be stuck on turboprops perminently. Not that that is a bad thing, but I would like to get my hands on something else.
The writting on the forum is making me wonder. Is this contract a general improvement to my current position, or should I stick to what I have. Basically I would be giving up a permanent job, as captain, with decent wage, to go on a contract with Ryanair, and invest some 30.000 euros. This would be ok if I do it for some time and then be able to get a job in my home country, at my preferred base.
So I am basically wondering:
Is the contract solid?
Will I really be flying 900 hrs and make the money they say?
Is it true that the intend is to change me to a permanent contract when available?
What about paying taxes and stuff, do I have to sort it out myself?
Are things getting worse or better in Ryanair.
Hope anyone can give me some info on this. I have to make a choice soon.
Thanks
My current position is turbo-prop captain with no jet time at all. Therefore I see it as something very important to get my hands on some jettime as soon as possible, for otherwise I might be stuck on turboprops perminently. Not that that is a bad thing, but I would like to get my hands on something else.
The writting on the forum is making me wonder. Is this contract a general improvement to my current position, or should I stick to what I have. Basically I would be giving up a permanent job, as captain, with decent wage, to go on a contract with Ryanair, and invest some 30.000 euros. This would be ok if I do it for some time and then be able to get a job in my home country, at my preferred base.
So I am basically wondering:
Is the contract solid?
Will I really be flying 900 hrs and make the money they say?
Is it true that the intend is to change me to a permanent contract when available?
What about paying taxes and stuff, do I have to sort it out myself?
Are things getting worse or better in Ryanair.
Hope anyone can give me some info on this. I have to make a choice soon.
Thanks
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Be cautious if its Alteon. They bring you in for the sim evaluation pass you, and everyone, and THEN have ryanair interview you. So you could end up not passing the Ryanair interview (a 20 min BS session with DD) even though you passed the sim. Costing you over £340 for 45 min a sim with ZERO feedback!! Happend to 5 people a few weeks ago!. A nice little earner for Alteon. And of course they can then blame Ryanair saying that for some reason which they were not told you were not selected this time, even though they recommended you.
Be warned everone.... another aviation Ripoff!!!
Moku.
Be warned everone.... another aviation Ripoff!!!
Moku.
Last edited by moku; 18th Jul 2004 at 10:20.
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eijk1234. Difficult decision, difficult-ish questions.
"Is the contract solid?"
No. The contract varies by the time of day and in any case very few people feel it appropriate to look for what their contract entitles them to (read the thread on "Ryanair - a call to arms" to start to understand why).
"Will I really be flying 900 hrs and make the money they say?"
Yes to the 900 hrs. The money I can't advise about - it depends a bit on what "they" say!!
"Is it true that they intend is to change me to a permanent contract when available?"
Unlikely. They intend to do only what they find suitable to their needs (which might be to change you to a permanent contract when the time comes). Many contract pilots have long since met the legal requirements for full time employment entitlements, but have not chosen to assert their legal entitlements. Why? .... see "Ryanair - a call to arms" to get a sense of the environment.
"What about paying taxes and stuff, do I have to sort it out myself?"
Can't help you here. Ask your potential hiring company (and be careful with your questions and the answers to those questions ... it may be your last opportunity to ask questions for some time!!).
"Are things getting worse or better in Ryanair."
Worse. And heading downwards. But that does not mean that it is a bad decision for YOU to join Ryanair, just that it is a difficult decision.
The great debate at present is whether or not BALPA and IALPA can organise the Ryanair pilots to stop the rot. A lot will hang on the outcome. It is fair to say that, at the moment, there has never been such unhappiness and distrust of management. There are also pockets of happiness. But they tend to involve the new or innocent.
"Is the contract solid?"
No. The contract varies by the time of day and in any case very few people feel it appropriate to look for what their contract entitles them to (read the thread on "Ryanair - a call to arms" to start to understand why).
"Will I really be flying 900 hrs and make the money they say?"
Yes to the 900 hrs. The money I can't advise about - it depends a bit on what "they" say!!
"Is it true that they intend is to change me to a permanent contract when available?"
Unlikely. They intend to do only what they find suitable to their needs (which might be to change you to a permanent contract when the time comes). Many contract pilots have long since met the legal requirements for full time employment entitlements, but have not chosen to assert their legal entitlements. Why? .... see "Ryanair - a call to arms" to get a sense of the environment.
"What about paying taxes and stuff, do I have to sort it out myself?"
Can't help you here. Ask your potential hiring company (and be careful with your questions and the answers to those questions ... it may be your last opportunity to ask questions for some time!!).
"Are things getting worse or better in Ryanair."
Worse. And heading downwards. But that does not mean that it is a bad decision for YOU to join Ryanair, just that it is a difficult decision.
The great debate at present is whether or not BALPA and IALPA can organise the Ryanair pilots to stop the rot. A lot will hang on the outcome. It is fair to say that, at the moment, there has never been such unhappiness and distrust of management. There are also pockets of happiness. But they tend to involve the new or innocent.
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Thanks for all that info guys. I actually ended up doing a sim before the interview, but that will be ok, since it is not with the company you indicated. I have at this time no idea of what contract is gonna be offered which is kind of nasty since I did spend 400 bucks on the sim assessment but such is life in the industry these days. I hope they offer me some contract which will allow me to count on a little bit, otherwise I will probably not go for it. Some hard tinking to do here. Thanks.
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eijk1234
I would say, Just treat them like the tarts they are and go get your jet time with them, then go work for which ever airline takes your fancy. You'll have the jet time, the world will be your oyster!
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eijk1234,
I agree very much with what has been mentioned above. I dont work for FR myself, but know a few who do.
What I can tell you is that, as a Dutchman, you will find working for O'leary difficult. I lived in the Netherlands for three years, and so I know the Dutch tendency towards fairness and hearing everyone's point of view. Trust me when I say that O'leary's "I know it all, screw the rest of you" attitude will make you want to puke: I cant even stand to listen to him, or hear what his workers tell me about him.
So if i might say so, I think you will have a slight "cultural" barrier to get through there.
All the same, there may be a very many good reasons for you to consider joining up, so choose wisely!
Tot ziens, en veel succes! ;-)
I agree very much with what has been mentioned above. I dont work for FR myself, but know a few who do.
What I can tell you is that, as a Dutchman, you will find working for O'leary difficult. I lived in the Netherlands for three years, and so I know the Dutch tendency towards fairness and hearing everyone's point of view. Trust me when I say that O'leary's "I know it all, screw the rest of you" attitude will make you want to puke: I cant even stand to listen to him, or hear what his workers tell me about him.
So if i might say so, I think you will have a slight "cultural" barrier to get through there.
All the same, there may be a very many good reasons for you to consider joining up, so choose wisely!
Tot ziens, en veel succes! ;-)
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1234
As a fellow turbo skipper I will say this. Don't do it. We are losing pilots both FO's and Capts to jet operators with absolutely NO COST to them. Just have to sign a standard training agreement. Use your experience and not your wallet to get your next job. They are out there. Patience will work. Let Ryan take people from the bottom of the barrell etc.....Screw them. Looks like the cost of those shiny new jets is catching up to them.
My two cents.
As a fellow turbo skipper I will say this. Don't do it. We are losing pilots both FO's and Capts to jet operators with absolutely NO COST to them. Just have to sign a standard training agreement. Use your experience and not your wallet to get your next job. They are out there. Patience will work. Let Ryan take people from the bottom of the barrell etc.....Screw them. Looks like the cost of those shiny new jets is catching up to them.
My two cents.
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Duck-u-Suckerz has it right. Use them like a whore you bought with your enemy's credit card... Or something like that!
They are using you. It may be pay for "experience" but when a better deal comes around, don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.
And take a moment to savor the speech they give you about loyalty and not being honest with them as you are turning in your I.D. and manuals enroute to a better job.
F' em!TC
They are using you. It may be pay for "experience" but when a better deal comes around, don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.
And take a moment to savor the speech they give you about loyalty and not being honest with them as you are turning in your I.D. and manuals enroute to a better job.
F' em!TC
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Thanks or the advice guys. Not gonna do it in the end. Guess that the final argument of thedude makes sense. I don“t want to de-value the profession more than it has been done so far. Just hope I won“t need them somewhere in the future. Cause I am burning this ship.
Cheers
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eijk1234,
well done! Not an easy decision I am sure, but good to see someone stand up to a principle. The tide will gradually change for FR and their ilk.
There is nothing so certain in the aviation business as change and I am sure that the the right opportunity will arise at some future time. Good luck.
well done! Not an easy decision I am sure, but good to see someone stand up to a principle. The tide will gradually change for FR and their ilk.
There is nothing so certain in the aviation business as change and I am sure that the the right opportunity will arise at some future time. Good luck.
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I am also debating the Ryanair option having also been offered a job there.
I am experienced with time on jets but I don`t have time on a useful type and looking for work
I am against paying for a type rating in principle and have never done so but....
WHat about this ? One has factor your pay over two years and deduct the cost of the type rating and consider that one is contracting out one`s services as a type rated 737 pilot.
Can one keep one`s pride this way or not.
Many pilots do not stick together ( paying for type ratings to get ahead ) and only look out for themselves.
What is the cost of being unemployed six months looking for another job ?
Are there experienced pilots willing to pay for a type rating ?
I assume that Ryanair is going to be short of Captains soon. Captains slots will be open.
The fault is not only with Ryanair it is with the pilot(s) who are willing to pay for the type rating.
Look how many other companies ask for type rated pilots,only.
Are there Ryanair pilots who would defend their company on this post ?
It would be interesting here more from the Ryanair guys.
Ryanair is growing and profitable. Pilots are only a part of the total equation.
The most important issue for me is : What is the safety level of this airline ? What about CRM and atmosphere ?
It doesn`t sound that great.
I am experienced with time on jets but I don`t have time on a useful type and looking for work
I am against paying for a type rating in principle and have never done so but....
WHat about this ? One has factor your pay over two years and deduct the cost of the type rating and consider that one is contracting out one`s services as a type rated 737 pilot.
Can one keep one`s pride this way or not.
Many pilots do not stick together ( paying for type ratings to get ahead ) and only look out for themselves.
What is the cost of being unemployed six months looking for another job ?
Are there experienced pilots willing to pay for a type rating ?
I assume that Ryanair is going to be short of Captains soon. Captains slots will be open.
The fault is not only with Ryanair it is with the pilot(s) who are willing to pay for the type rating.
Look how many other companies ask for type rated pilots,only.
Are there Ryanair pilots who would defend their company on this post ?
It would be interesting here more from the Ryanair guys.
Ryanair is growing and profitable. Pilots are only a part of the total equation.
The most important issue for me is : What is the safety level of this airline ? What about CRM and atmosphere ?
It doesn`t sound that great.
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ryanair
my 2 penneth.
for:
rosters rock stable never change! 5 on 3 off guaranteed
average 80 hrs per month flying.
new aircraft, if that floats your boat.
varied and challenging routes (non precision just about everywhere)
Home every night
Crews are a great bunch of people (they have to be)
against:
mols reign of terror, loose money your out!
days long 5am till 4pm then again next day.
lots of different contracts/pay etc to undermine crews
Thats the way i see it, I dont work for them but do share a house with crew so first hand info. For what its worth I think the brookfield contract pay with the 5 on 5 off roster is one of the most lucrative, if your prepared to travel.
for:
rosters rock stable never change! 5 on 3 off guaranteed
average 80 hrs per month flying.
new aircraft, if that floats your boat.
varied and challenging routes (non precision just about everywhere)
Home every night
Crews are a great bunch of people (they have to be)
against:
mols reign of terror, loose money your out!
days long 5am till 4pm then again next day.
lots of different contracts/pay etc to undermine crews
Thats the way i see it, I dont work for them but do share a house with crew so first hand info. For what its worth I think the brookfield contract pay with the 5 on 5 off roster is one of the most lucrative, if your prepared to travel.
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I'm away at the moment, so cannot check out some recent rumours. But the news coming throught the rumour network are of continuous and ever more depressing reductions to FR terms and conditions.
While rumoured for a long time, the first management chat about charging for simulator time seems to have started. Almost every day we hear a new story about some fundamental change which someone has had to face (invariably out of the blue, face to face and "take it our leave it").
The bottom line for prospective employees is that you need to factor in a range of definite, probable and possible deductions from your salary that you would not think of if you come from a more conventional operator. Cumulatively these are very significant.
DO NOT WAIT UNTIL YOU HAVE SPENT MONEY OR MADE A COMMITMENT BEFORE ASKING WHAT YOUR CONTRACTED TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT WILL BE. There will be great resistance to providing you with clarity, even a refusal. But one thing is clear, if you cannot get clarity at the outset, you certainly will not get it when you are in their grip!
The corporate culture issue is not exaggerated in the various FR discussions in this and other forums. It is an issue to think hard about.
While rumoured for a long time, the first management chat about charging for simulator time seems to have started. Almost every day we hear a new story about some fundamental change which someone has had to face (invariably out of the blue, face to face and "take it our leave it").
The bottom line for prospective employees is that you need to factor in a range of definite, probable and possible deductions from your salary that you would not think of if you come from a more conventional operator. Cumulatively these are very significant.
DO NOT WAIT UNTIL YOU HAVE SPENT MONEY OR MADE A COMMITMENT BEFORE ASKING WHAT YOUR CONTRACTED TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT WILL BE. There will be great resistance to providing you with clarity, even a refusal. But one thing is clear, if you cannot get clarity at the outset, you certainly will not get it when you are in their grip!
The corporate culture issue is not exaggerated in the various FR discussions in this and other forums. It is an issue to think hard about.
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My answer would be NO.
Unless you happy to point your chocolate starfish in MOL's direction and say "Oi Poke this until I die", then definitely no, NO F
G way.
I know many FR guys and the Moral is low, Esteem is low, Happiness is low and for the first 6 months your salary is low.
But......AA717 and Duck-U have good points but my answer would still be no to FR.
eijk you have made the right decision stay away and you time will come.
Good luck
Unless you happy to point your chocolate starfish in MOL's direction and say "Oi Poke this until I die", then definitely no, NO F
G way.I know many FR guys and the Moral is low, Esteem is low, Happiness is low and for the first 6 months your salary is low.
But......AA717 and Duck-U have good points but my answer would still be no to FR.
eijk you have made the right decision stay away and you time will come.
Good luck
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For every company that makes you pay for your typerating (and the rest) I have a general say:
NO BUCKS, NO BUCK ROGERS !
(from the movie the Right Stuff)
Thank you.
NO BUCKS, NO BUCK ROGERS !
(from the movie the Right Stuff)
Thank you.
Last edited by pipo the clown; 1st Aug 2004 at 22:44.
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i also do have the possibility to leave my permanent position to join ryanair via brookfield.
i did a lot of calculations the last weeks to find out if it´s worth it.
i think the first 1,5 years, i would even loose some money because i would have to pay a rating on the 737 and dont earn anymore money during that time.
on the other side if i look a few years ahead, the salery on a brookfield contract would be much better.
but this is only of real interest for me, if i dont have to pay anymore taxes or almost no taxes.
so i´m interestet, in which countrys other contract pilots have their official permanent residence, and how much taxes they have to pay.
does anyone know, how long it would approx. take, to become cpt. if I join as a JAR 25 F/O with about 3000 h. airline time?
thanx in advance.
i did a lot of calculations the last weeks to find out if it´s worth it.
i think the first 1,5 years, i would even loose some money because i would have to pay a rating on the 737 and dont earn anymore money during that time.
on the other side if i look a few years ahead, the salery on a brookfield contract would be much better.
but this is only of real interest for me, if i dont have to pay anymore taxes or almost no taxes.
so i´m interestet, in which countrys other contract pilots have their official permanent residence, and how much taxes they have to pay.
does anyone know, how long it would approx. take, to become cpt. if I join as a JAR 25 F/O with about 3000 h. airline time?
thanx in advance.
Last edited by emergency descent; 25th May 2006 at 09:24.
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The brookfield's contract states very clear how much you earn. The payment of taxes is also very flexible - PM me if you need details. I was offered a job as CMD (under the condition that I pass the assessment of course). I had nearly no jet hours, but 4000 hrs on big turboprops. I had to turn down the offer, mostly because of what's happening in this company and because you have no real home base.