Pilot = Idiot - Don't do it.

[Wizofoz]

or captains with 800 TT and 300 hrs on type (737)?

Errr.... Which airline are you suggesting? I know of no airline in Europe with a requirement of less than 3000hrs before command, nor any regulator that would alow one to operate with 800hr captains!!

V-r,

I'm sorry, but the title of your thread was Pilot=Idiot. The irony of starting such a post when you yourself are a pilot (and apparently staying as one) and the insult it represents to your fellows is obviously lost on you. Then the idea that because I don't spend my life hating my job (no I'm not 22, I'm 39 and been at this 17yrs) I'm somehow responsible for your problems beggars belief.

Care to mention 3 proffestions that pay as well as airline flying and have normal working hours? Which one are you taking up?

I understand that you want to warn up-and-comers about the pratfalls of the industry. Well, the main problem is that lots of people want to fly, because they consider it a great job!

My advice to wannabes is always- If you're trying to decide between flying and another proffestion, pick the other one! If flying is all you want to do and you understand the road ahead is long and tough, welcome on board and enjoy the ride!

It's certainly a journey I've never regreted.

[Flex33]

Whilst I may enjoy my job the respect generated by my employer has long since evaporated along with my good will.

Aviation as with any other business operates on supply & demand. Whilst there remain people willing to 'prostitute' themselves the situation will only get worse. It's long overdue that a consensus is agreed between the pilot community on pay & conditions. Below this line none of us will go!

For many years BALPA have sought & gained recognition within various airlines, but for what purpose? What efforts have been made to level the playing field? Perhaps if the Association recognized the displeasure of the flying community & began to negotiate collectively on pay & conditions, there might at least be a light at the end of the tunnel. Who know's membership might even increase!

It's time to stand together & stop bickering amongst ourselves.

[visuals_rule]

Wizofoz, I am not insulting anyone. Maybe you feel insulted by a punchy headline, or maybe you feel its a bit true and wants to kill the messenger. Its not important. Its not about your specific job or mine, its about whats true in general.

Lets see... 3 types of jobs, earning as much as a LCC pilot in Ryanair (less than 60 Euros a flight hour before tax and selfpaid company related expenses / 70 hours a months, not guaranteed) or other LCC, or any eastern European operator, or jetprop jobs -infact anything but flag carriers....

Take your pick:
http://jobstar.org/tools/salary/sal-prof.cfm

And please remember to correct for your lack of job security, actual hours spent on your job instead of just block hours, the general expectation that YOU pay for any course or training you need or might need in the future to keep flying, selfsponsored education etc., when you compare the salaries...

Please - dont kid yourself. Its true you CAN earn a very good salary in aviation, and it seems you are ok off, but for the average pilot... he might have been better of with a "real" education and then just live out his dreams in a Cessna during the weekend.

...and "Mercurius". I appreciate your honesty on this matter. You are right, that we\'d be better off without the dreamers. But as long as flying is fun there will always be young aces willing to work for nothing, dreaming of a great future.

[Wizofoz]

OK, three at ramdom:-

Accounting

Entry-level accountants at midsized public accounting firms ($25 to $250 million in annual sales) can expect base compensation of $32,000 to $38,500,

Teaching

South Dakota had the lowest average salary at $31,383

(N.B that's AVERAGE, I couldn't find any starting salary figure)

Banking

Average starting salaries for mortgage lenders range from $35,750 to $55,000 a year.

Not that ANY of these are 100% 9 to 5 (Accountants work late/weekends where necessary. Teachers do prep/marking and extra curricular activities, banks open extended hours these days)

By your figures- contract F/O with Ryan. 60*70*11 (assuming 1 months leave) = $46200 euro = $55 819 USD.

YES minus expenses, but then all of the above buy their own work clothes, transport and meals whilst at work.

And YES the Ryanair deal is attrocious. That's why I went to someone else, and many working for Ryan are looking to do the same.

There is downward pressure on Pilots pay and conditions, as there is in any depressed industry. A global upturn would see these trends reversed as they did in the late '80s and mid '90s. The only way someone is going to be around for the next upturn is to be on the ladder NOW.

Yes it is hard starting out. But once you are experienced enough to be saleable, you are well compensated for a job you enjoy.

Taking your advice (Pilot=Idiot-don't do it. You said it.) means NEVER getting there.

[747 Downwind]

Hmmm, I have read this evolving thread with great pleasure.

Visual rule: I would have to agree that the life of a pilot is not suited to family life... but then family life is not suited to all of mankind, I have seen what it has done to people and a rocky unpredictable career in aviation still seems more appealing I think?

Furthermore, in agreance with your assertion, it is perhaps not the glamorous career it once was but that will not deter the wannabes from flying big shiny white jets, for that itself is the primary goal.

Ryanair: well, they treat their customers life sh1t, they are ruthless commercially (which sadly has earned them their success), and thus their employees won't be treated any differently. It's not just the flightdeck, the Daily Mail published a case where they were deducting unnecessary training costs from the trainee cabin crew.

SimplyFO is simply making his point, that's up to him, he may like his job... and may still know the company are a ruthless bunch of


I haven't got a problem with Ryanair.... no really

[RPeagram]

Hey, stop compaining (soo much),

Before I start, after reading many forums on pprune I have read many, many dissapointing posts which b**ch about typeo errors. Please grow up and stop being so condesending. Some of you feel that marriges break up due to a lack of quality time. With personalities like that it's possible its because your a complete pr*t.

I choose between being a pilot and being a geography teacher. As I met the love of my life I knew I should choose to be a teacher. Or should I: someone quoted the minimum pay for a teacher as 31k. Nonsence. Wether you work for Ryanair of BA consider this before you decide wether or not the grass is greener in another profession.

The Teaching profession
1. Starting salary = 21k

For that you don't get:
*Free Buxton water and food ( yes I can't beleive M&S haven't given me shares as I've bought half the stock in Hounslow)
*Autoteacher button for that stormy appoach by a class/parent
*Any time off where you leave your work at work

However; you are lucky enough to get:
* Classes from Dangerous Minds whereby chairs are thrown, fights breakout, pupils square up to you and parents want to take legal action (and thats just the Gumley school if your familier with Hounslow)
* 11 ro 18 hour days (yes no co-teacher to take over for me)
* As a new teacher forget your weekends; you will work 7 day weeks for 6 weeks at a go. Hense at half-term teachers regain their health (if you choose not to plan your lessons, classes will decend into a circus - remember you will be required to entertain your pupils just to get their attention!)
* Forget relaxing on holiday you will be planning, marking, class preps, report writing, and organising fieldwork (yes you have the power to send me to jail if little i've had to many E numbers Jonny sneaks off at night or legs it into a fast flowing river)
*Teachers often marry teachers as know one else rarely understands the pressure were under and the workload we carry. Marriges and families often suffer (so i've herd).

HOWEVER; as I hope is the case with you, my job gives me an emense sence of job satisfaction despite the working conditions. The more you put in, the more you get out. Sometimes what you put in is forced upon you, but thats life!!

In addition, how dare some of you say that some pilots at Ryanair are prosituting themselves. If some FOs want to get some hours under their belt and want to do it the hard way then let them be.

As for young wannabes not knowing what their letting themselves in for. Nonsence. Extreamly tough selection processes will detect unsuspecting wannabes very easiliy. Why would anyone invest a right seat in a wannabe who then turns round and says - "well if your not going to give me Buxton water; i'm off".

My point is that, if your intelligent, abitious, like working in a team, having responsibility the likleyhood is that only tough and challenging jobs will give you a sense of job satisfaction. Therefore, unless you want to do a mindless jobs then there are very few easy jobs out there which will not affect your personal health and familiy life. I think, either change career and give it a go, or other stop complaining and where your wings with some bl***y pride.
Because if you think being a pilot is hard then give the teaching or law or accounting, or police, banking, consultency, sales, self-employed, civil service professions a shot.

Apologies for any typo erros. If there are I clearly do not have the commuication skills/apitute to be a pilot.

Oh, p.s. If you do want a stable job whereby you will be streched intellectually and you like a challenge then pick up an application from McDonalds's. Choose a fanchise: the real McDonalds will sha*t you every time.

[Digitalis]

Apologies for any typo erros. If there are I clearly do not have the commuication skills/apitute to be a pilot

And you think you have the appropriate communication skills to be a teacher? God help our children, because you patently won't!

[Wizofoz]

Digi,

I don't think English is our friend RPs first langage, so he didn't do that badly!!

[RPeagram]

Offence not taken.

As I thought, some deliberate errors would spark some put downs. As for:

"god help our children"

it's not me who is letting an increasing number of unqualified teachers teach in the classroom. Many of whome find it difficult to spell and are dyslexic by their own admission. A 1st class B.Sc graduate in geography is the least of your sons and daughters educational worries.

All I was suggesting is that instead of moaning about the job so much just change career. Clearly, some pilots are very unhappy. However, many careers have the same problems. Working unsociable hours, fatigue, stress and neraly everbody believes their terms and conditions should be better.

Cheers,
RP

To wizofoz,

langage is spelt language.
Or was that deliberate?

RP

[Wizofoz]

Nope, not deliberate, but on the subject of langUage:-

Initial capital on "It's", comma not full stop after "classroom" and it's "Whom" not Whome.

[visuals_rule]

...and if every pilot around could learn how to spell:


U N I O N - and - R E S P E C T


before they spell anything else, we would all have a better life.

[RPeagram]

We all make mistakes,

I apologise for any offence you feel towards my use of the English language. In total there were, I believe, 23 spelling mistakes. As for grammar: one should use grammar so that another person can read ones communication. According to Lynne Truss there are roughly 17 rules to remember when using just a comma. I'm afraid I don't know them all. In fact, there is a lot about grammar that I do not know.

This is why if I see any grammatical errors on a post I can't see the point in pointing them out in such a way that you have. So I made some grammatical mistakes. So what? As for questioning someone’s professional integrity, would you do the same if we were having the same discussion over a pint. I know I wouldn't because I would find it extremely rude. I've never questioned your professional integrity. I've only provided an insight in response to some quotes about working conditions in other professions.

If you think you can cope with 30 challenging pupils whilst teaching them the syllabus, moral, spiritual, behavioural, teamworking, organisational, problem solving, communication, leadership, presentation and report writing skills that their entitled to, then you are talented. In reality many can't and move on quickly. However, if it means that a teacher, who doesn't have the best grasp of English grammar, can do the above, then so be it. Because if it wasn't for us then there would be no pilots, no entrepreneurs so start airline companies, in fact there would be a very low skilled workforce indeed.

I will endeavour to improve my use of English grammar. However, I believe that other qualities such as teamwork, leadership, energy, problem solving, communication, organisation, passion for geography, inspiration, charisma, classroom management and time management may take further in life. In my opinion god help the children with parents with such narrow minds.

RP

[lemoncurd]

Wow. Some thread you've got going on here.

First of all, I really hope you don't mind a wannabe sniffing around on these forums. I just wanted to get a real idea of what it was like at the thick end of the wedge before I made any life-changing decisions. I always wanted to fly the `shiny white jets', but only recently had the funding or impetus to start some real investigation.

The impression I get from PPRuNe is that commercial aviation isn't anything like the career it once was; hours are long; pay is relatively poor; treated like sh*t, etc. But if one were to take Ryanair as being near the bottom of the heap in terms of airlines, how poor exactly are the conditions?

What is the average FO pay?
What do the expenses amount to?
How much stress is involved (obviously, this is subjective)?

I really need to know whether it's worth ditching a £30K 9-5 job (well actually it's 9-8, which is why complaining about 90 hours a month seems laughable to me) to give this a proper try.

I get the feeling most of you would say "no". Is it *that* clear cut?

ps. I kind of thought pilots would be above critising spelling and grammar in a discussion board. I guess that happens everywhere.

[Wizofoz]

RP,
In the first instance I was defending you. With the number of erros in your first post, I really did think english was not your first language. You pointed out the errors were deliberate, but also chose to highlight mine. I simply thought I'd return the favour.

At what point did I question your professtional integrity? In fact I heartily agree with the point you were making. It re-enforces the points I have been making.

You will find it is very easy to mis-interpret motives when only reading short posts. Sometimes peoples intent is lost in context.

I have nothing but respect for your professtion, but if you can critisise my spelling, at least get the grammar right whilst doing it.

Visual,

being a pilot and working on the terms that Ryanair and other LCC offers equals being an idiot.

I take it this is your idea of R E S P E C T?

[RPeagram]

Sorry, I just felt that by saying I'm from Isleworth and having a surname called Peagram I thought most people would think I'm originally from the UK.

Also, my mistake again, I thought your defence for me from Digitalis was in fact just a clever p*ss take.

It was that mistake which led me to believe that you, along with Digitalis, agreed with the quote:

"And you think you have the appropriate communication skills to be a teacher? God help our children, because you patently won't!"

It is this quote which made me think that you had questioned my ability to be a teacher.

Therefore, please accept my apologies.
RP

[visuals_rule]

Wiz - when you want to open the eyes on people that are seduced by people that describes their working conditions in LCCs in positive terms, like calculating their higher than normal salaries with out correcting for actual hours spent on the job instead of block hours, no jobsecurity, no holidays, no decent treatment at all, no hotels, no transport, no nothing - you have to use a headline like that! Again, and this is the last time, it's a punchy headline to open the eyes of wannabees and people that are in doubt if they are doing the right thing.

[Wizofoz]

visual,

To understand where you are coming from, I really need to know two things:-

1) Who (as in what type, not neccessarily the exact outfit) do you work for, and

2) What is the professtion you are going to train for which offers you so much more lifestyle at comparable pay?

For my part, I am a line Captain with an LCC (easyJet). I fly around 800hrs a year. I do virtualy no passenger sectors, overnights or ground transport sectrors, have little in the way of delays or disruptions, and work with nice people doing something I love. I believe my job security is good, and if I choose to can hopefully progress to training positions if I have the aptitude.

At times I bounce around max duty hours, and have been known to put in the odd 60 hr week (usualy followed by good time off). I get holidays, I get hotels, I get transport when away from base.

I am better off than some. Those in jobs with lesser conditions should aspire to progress to better positions.

However, by your logic, because there are some who can, at the moment, only get a job with lesser conditions, we should all just give up and do something else.

By the way, if you actually DON'T think I'm an idiot for doing my job, we're hiring at the moment (but only those with a positive attitude.)

Good luck in your endevours.

[dicksynormous]

I'm not a wannabe, i have hrs to spare, been doing it for 17 years. consider the following equation.

x =( women x planes) + (pig x sh1t).

money x12 +x = Me.

Quite simple really.
The answer is 42

[Spartacan]

This is a good thread.

I am making a career change from airline pilot to primary school teacher.

visuals_rule's comments about family life strike a chord with me. My primary motivation for the career change is to get rid of the nightmare of random, exhausting and socially destructive airline rostering. The final straw with my last 'employer' was when they refused to be even faintly co-operative in letting me arrange leave for the birth of our child.

I have been dissatisfied with the profession for some years. Other issues really grated with me. The chronic instability - two airlines have gone belly up on me causing a lot expense. Other 'employers' have caused me expensive and anti-social bases changes. Finally, there is a lot of pressure to cut corners these days. The last straw was when my chief pilot gave some of us an impromptu briefing on engineering cover at outstations. It was 'suggested' that we would all be better off not place the aircraft tech at certain bases just "fly back to base and get it fixed overnight"

No way, Hose.

These, and many other, issues led me to apply for, and gain, a place on a course to train as a teacher. This meant spending a lot of time in different schools making sure the decision was right. I enjoyed my experiences and am now part way through my training.

I concur with the points put forward by RPeagram. It is a very demanding, and equally rewarding, profession. Like flying, it is a basket case of tricky and contentious issues. In these nervy, untrustworthy and litigious times there is a lot of tension regarding issues of accountability. It is a highly responsible profession. You are dealing with the worlds most impressionable people and their future is in your hands.

It is no less comprehensive than airline command work. There are pro's and cons.

The major advantages for me (in no order) are:

1. Job satisfaction. Sorting out tough kids is hard graft. BUT you can see a difference when you get through to them.

2. Regular hours and regular sleep. Better all round for my family.

3. Schools don't go bust. I can work beyond 60 and don't need to pass a medical.

4. Schools are everywhere. I don't have to live near an expensive airport.

Would I go back to flying? Nope. Done that. Got the tee shirt and wrapped round an old mop.

RPeagram is right. It ain't easy but then life without a challenge is dull.

Happy Landings.

[visuals_rule]

Spartacan. Well put! You summed up what its all about. You think straight and you do not have installed fixed pink lenses infront of your eyeballs, like some of the desperados have. The branch has reached an all time low. Todays pilots and wannabe's have to deal with a set of degrated values, where:

1. You pay for your own education, even though no EU society can work without aviation

2. You know that being willing to pay for typerating makes you more attractive than a typerated experienced pilot when you look for employment

3. You don't expect normal decency such as being let off the schedule for childbirth, marriage and death

4. You accept to work under conditions that didnt even exist this bad in the 1950s, such as no vacation, no regard for holidays, overtime, hotels and transportation

5. You accept to pay for your employers expenses to run the operation, such as simulatortime, hotels, transportation and positioning

6. You generally have lost your dignity, and you are afraid like all the others, making it impossible to start a union to improve things, even though there are thousands of pilots in the same situation