Attention all BA wannabes!
Join Date: May 2004
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An excellent and informative post.
British Airways is still the best employer for pilots in the country without doubt. That said, the low cost airlines have forced them particularly in the short haul market, to re-evaluate their strategy and the consequence of that is terms and conditions have been eroded for new entrants. It is not the airline it used to be anymore for excellent conditions of employment.
The pension unquestionably is a paramount factor in deciding whether or not to apply to them. Likewise, if current BA pilots are asked to dip in to their pockets to sure up the black hole in the companys' pension pot, then if the retirement age is extended to 60, many will continue beyond 55 to make up that shortfall. That in turn will have ramifications for promotion to the LHS.
Cathay Pacific used different contracts to employ new pilots and the reason is reduce crew costs in an increasingly competitive business.
My own gut feeling is that only those who are low in seniority in their own airline and are going to have to wait a long time till command should consider it. The difference between final salary pension schemes and money purchase schemes is immense and if you are currently in a final salary scheme at present, think very carefully.
British Airways does offer a multitude of oppotunities through their route network but the friends I have there work extremely hard and fly more hours than most of the charter airlines now.
Good luck to those applying. I have a feeling BA won't be getting the deluge of applications it may have been expecting.
Regards Orion Man.
British Airways is still the best employer for pilots in the country without doubt. That said, the low cost airlines have forced them particularly in the short haul market, to re-evaluate their strategy and the consequence of that is terms and conditions have been eroded for new entrants. It is not the airline it used to be anymore for excellent conditions of employment.
The pension unquestionably is a paramount factor in deciding whether or not to apply to them. Likewise, if current BA pilots are asked to dip in to their pockets to sure up the black hole in the companys' pension pot, then if the retirement age is extended to 60, many will continue beyond 55 to make up that shortfall. That in turn will have ramifications for promotion to the LHS.
Cathay Pacific used different contracts to employ new pilots and the reason is reduce crew costs in an increasingly competitive business.
My own gut feeling is that only those who are low in seniority in their own airline and are going to have to wait a long time till command should consider it. The difference between final salary pension schemes and money purchase schemes is immense and if you are currently in a final salary scheme at present, think very carefully.
British Airways does offer a multitude of oppotunities through their route network but the friends I have there work extremely hard and fly more hours than most of the charter airlines now.
Good luck to those applying. I have a feeling BA won't be getting the deluge of applications it may have been expecting.
Regards Orion Man.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Likewise, if current BA pilots are asked to dip in to their pockets to sure up the black hole in the companys' pension pot...
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Great informative initial posting (very good food for thought indeed!), and good discussion (although got a bit hung up on the staff travel issue to start with, eh?).
We need to ensure that all perspective applicants get to see this!!
It would be a damned shame that someone might hand in their notice to their current employer, sign up with BA, and then find that they've made an enormous cock-up... frozen out from command for 15 years, working every weekend, crap pension.
I'm sure BA don't make these things clear in their recruitment literature, eh???
If BA put out their adverts and didn't get enough type-rated applicants (that's all they're looking for I think?), I'm sure they would soon adjust their new starter rates & pension... they'd have to!
It would seem that they are actually very short of pilots to crew the operation... they don't have any cadets under training at the moment (and none planned, I'm told), so that won't get them off the hook.
I'd like to see more postings like this by colleagues from all the operators... lets us know what we're really getting into if we decide to sign up with a new company.
This is a good thread, thanks for the info !
We need to ensure that all perspective applicants get to see this!!
It would be a damned shame that someone might hand in their notice to their current employer, sign up with BA, and then find that they've made an enormous cock-up... frozen out from command for 15 years, working every weekend, crap pension.
I'm sure BA don't make these things clear in their recruitment literature, eh???
If BA put out their adverts and didn't get enough type-rated applicants (that's all they're looking for I think?), I'm sure they would soon adjust their new starter rates & pension... they'd have to!
It would seem that they are actually very short of pilots to crew the operation... they don't have any cadets under training at the moment (and none planned, I'm told), so that won't get them off the hook.
I'd like to see more postings like this by colleagues from all the operators... lets us know what we're really getting into if we decide to sign up with a new company.
This is a good thread, thanks for the info !
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I don't know that BA have enough in the hold pool to meet their requirement for over 120 pilots this year. From what I have heard there is a huge failure rate on the simulator assessment day. Presumably because Airbus pilots who are being recruited to fly an Airbus and have performed perfectly well in the past are being asked to forget all that and fly a BAC 1-11 to perfection instead. From what I've heard, its something like 6 out of every 7 are failing. What are BA looking for? These same pilots must be passing their OPCs and LPCs, and some must be doing it with above average skills.
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(B) PENSION
BA has closed its Final Salary Pension Scheme to all new joiners. This scheme allowed up to 2/3 final salary to be taken as pension. BA contributed approx 25% of a pilot's pensionable salary to this scheme.
The new scheme (as currently proposed) is significantly less beneficial. The scheme will be a "Money Purchase" type, where the liability rests with the employee. BA is proposing contributing only approximately 9% of the pilot's basic pay... far less than currently contributed by the employer in a number of equivalent schemes (e.g. Virgin Atlantic).
Under the current proposals it is unlikely that a pilot will receive more than half his final salary as pension (depending on investment / stock market performance).
This is exactly what was proposed by a potential investor in Air Canada. All of the involved unions told him to "stuff it". We were willing to let the company liquidate over the pension issue. The potential investor walked away, and we still have our original pension plan. I am surprised BALPA would put up with this.
BA has closed its Final Salary Pension Scheme to all new joiners. This scheme allowed up to 2/3 final salary to be taken as pension. BA contributed approx 25% of a pilot's pensionable salary to this scheme.
The new scheme (as currently proposed) is significantly less beneficial. The scheme will be a "Money Purchase" type, where the liability rests with the employee. BA is proposing contributing only approximately 9% of the pilot's basic pay... far less than currently contributed by the employer in a number of equivalent schemes (e.g. Virgin Atlantic).
Under the current proposals it is unlikely that a pilot will receive more than half his final salary as pension (depending on investment / stock market performance).
This is exactly what was proposed by a potential investor in Air Canada. All of the involved unions told him to "stuff it". We were willing to let the company liquidate over the pension issue. The potential investor walked away, and we still have our original pension plan. I am surprised BALPA would put up with this.
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I wonder if one of you BA chaps could clarify something for me.
There are 3000 pilots at BA. That gives us roughly 1400 captains and 1600 FOs.
Approximate time to Short Haul Command = 10-12 years
Approximate time to Long Haul Command = 16-18 years
So let’s say it takes you 12 years to be eligible for command. However before you get your command you will have been the most senior FO in the fleet, right? And therefore have enjoyed the last couple of years bidding for all the best trips, having weekends off, etc.
So using 12 years to command as a yardstick; after 6 or so years an FO would be in the top 50 percent of FO’s seniority list? And with the BA’s route structure surely that would mean a good lifestyle?
P.S
As a long haul FO how senior would you have to be to get things like Australia, the Far East or South America?
And why is the US east coast so unpopular? I can understand why Lagos and Jeddah aren’t the most bid for, but what is wrong with New York?
Cheers,
HaM
There are 3000 pilots at BA. That gives us roughly 1400 captains and 1600 FOs.
Approximate time to Short Haul Command = 10-12 years
Approximate time to Long Haul Command = 16-18 years
So let’s say it takes you 12 years to be eligible for command. However before you get your command you will have been the most senior FO in the fleet, right? And therefore have enjoyed the last couple of years bidding for all the best trips, having weekends off, etc.
So using 12 years to command as a yardstick; after 6 or so years an FO would be in the top 50 percent of FO’s seniority list? And with the BA’s route structure surely that would mean a good lifestyle?
P.S
As a long haul FO how senior would you have to be to get things like Australia, the Far East or South America?
And why is the US east coast so unpopular? I can understand why Lagos and Jeddah aren’t the most bid for, but what is wrong with New York?
Cheers,
HaM
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Can't comment on the seniority issues at BA, but you ask what is wrong with New York? Well, nothing - until you go there six times a month, every month. And have to suffer the overnight flight back having had precious little sleep over the preceding day, then have to fight your way through the morning queues at Heathrow. And JFK is a third world airport, not to mention the excessive zeal of the TSA guys against aircrews.
Apart from that, it's great!
Apart from that, it's great!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Pretty much sums it up. If you join straight onto a long haul fleet, bear in mind that a lot of guys and girls already there only want to do long haul and will sit at the top of the co-pilots list for an awfully long time in order to swap seats and not have to do short haul. I've been in seven years, I'm about a third of the way off the bottom of my list and the top 50% will take another two or three years.
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HaM
Your logic is too simplistic, 12 years as an FO maybe, but after 6 years you maybe half way to command but nothing like half way up the FO seniority list. Why?
Well most FO's start for 4-6 years on shorthaul, and indeed right now, a 4 year SFO on SH will be in the top quarter probably on the Airbus status list. When he transfers to LH after say 5 years he will be 80-90% down the LH P2 list.
In SH because of the similarity of the trips, anywhere in the top half (ie 3 years service) will see you getting a good bid result, but to achieve a similar bid result in LH you will probably need 9-10 years service.
I say this having done 15 years, 6yrs SH P2, 2 SH P1, 4 LH P2 and 3 SH P1. I have the seniority for all but 747 command and should get that bid next year (all things being equal).
Your logic is too simplistic, 12 years as an FO maybe, but after 6 years you maybe half way to command but nothing like half way up the FO seniority list. Why?
Well most FO's start for 4-6 years on shorthaul, and indeed right now, a 4 year SFO on SH will be in the top quarter probably on the Airbus status list. When he transfers to LH after say 5 years he will be 80-90% down the LH P2 list.
In SH because of the similarity of the trips, anywhere in the top half (ie 3 years service) will see you getting a good bid result, but to achieve a similar bid result in LH you will probably need 9-10 years service.
I say this having done 15 years, 6yrs SH P2, 2 SH P1, 4 LH P2 and 3 SH P1. I have the seniority for all but 747 command and should get that bid next year (all things being equal).
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Thanks for the info...
However, some of the guys I'm talking to say that the retirement age will have to go up from 55 to 60 in Oct 2006.
This will, apparently, make the entire seniority system stagnate for 5 years (no retirements = no recruitments).
I've been told that you can therefore add 5 years onto all the current predictions i.e. 5 years extra cr*p at the bottom of the seniority list, 17 years to shorthaul command and 22 years to longhaul command.
Apparently this is how long it used to take about 10 years ago... is that true?
However, some of the guys I'm talking to say that the retirement age will have to go up from 55 to 60 in Oct 2006.
This will, apparently, make the entire seniority system stagnate for 5 years (no retirements = no recruitments).
I've been told that you can therefore add 5 years onto all the current predictions i.e. 5 years extra cr*p at the bottom of the seniority list, 17 years to shorthaul command and 22 years to longhaul command.
Apparently this is how long it used to take about 10 years ago... is that true?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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As far as I understand it, European law means that a retirement age as such would be abolished - you can keep going so long as you pass the medical. However due to licencing requirements in France and Italy, 60 would become the maximum for pilots. Everyone in BA at the moment (except for some of the ex Dan Dare guys) must go at 55. Even after the legal retirement age changes, there should be nothing (in theory) stopping anyone from going as originally planned, although some will undoubtedly stay on. I would be surprised if commands go back five years, probably more like three. I'm considered quite young for my seniority (or senior for my age) and I will be looking at 18+ years (from joining) to a short haul command at LHR if this is the case with longhaul probably after 23 years. I haven't decided when I want to retire yet so I could be a long haul captain for well over ten years, which could cause a big delay for anyone junior to me. As you say, this is similar to ten or so years ago.
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Has anyone mentioned the roster stability at BA as one of the most vital benefits? I have known for certain from a day or two ago exactly what my roster is until the 3rd September. No if's but's or maybes, no being messed around in two weeks time if things go wrong. It's cast in stone and can't be changed.
If I were to be on a 3 day trip (for example) that got disrupted and it was impossible for me to continue the duty that day, I would be sent home and have to come back in the next day to resume my trip at the first available opportunity and therefore finish at the original time on my roster.
You can plan your life without being at the mercy of crew control, unlike other airlines I have worked for.
If I were to be on a 3 day trip (for example) that got disrupted and it was impossible for me to continue the duty that day, I would be sent home and have to come back in the next day to resume my trip at the first available opportunity and therefore finish at the original time on my roster.
You can plan your life without being at the mercy of crew control, unlike other airlines I have worked for.
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How about block reserves of a month ? Do they disrupt your life especially if you wanted to commute to LHR ??
I understand that being a junior f/o you can expect at least 1, maybe 2 months of this !?!
I understand that being a junior f/o you can expect at least 1, maybe 2 months of this !?!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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You will do reserve more regularly as a junior FO. Expect at least once a year. The more senior you are, the less frequently you will do it. This is basically a period of standby which lasts three weeks plus a set of seven fixed days off, although SHAG has different rules. If you think you're likely to be assigned reserve, you can bid in advance to get some control of your days off.
On shorthaul, some of it will be airport standby, some of it home standby. If I remember correctly, short haul has a 12 hour (?) period for airport standby or 1.5 hours from the car park for home standby.
For longhaul, all standby is from home with max 2 hours from the car park. In most cases, the company will try to give you more notice but if you live further away than that time, get yourself a girlfriend in Windsor.
On shorthaul, some of it will be airport standby, some of it home standby. If I remember correctly, short haul has a 12 hour (?) period for airport standby or 1.5 hours from the car park for home standby.
For longhaul, all standby is from home with max 2 hours from the car park. In most cases, the company will try to give you more notice but if you live further away than that time, get yourself a girlfriend in Windsor.
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If I remember correctly, short haul has a 12 hour (?) period for airport standby or 1.5 hours from the car park for home standby
NoD
