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I've seen some pretty huge CBS in the area of the airfield I used to work at. Again, ATC were very good at co-ordinating, we'd land in from the clear end and depart away from the storms. 3,400m runway helps. Make-your-own missed approaches also agreed when needed from them.
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Airmann while not necessarily directly addressing your question, I found this discussion below one of the more thought provoking on the general use of weather radar https://forums.jetcareers.com/thread...hniques.35839/ There is some discussion on page 1 on Archie Trammel’s advice (radar guru, recently passed away), and further on some actual input from the great Dave Gwinn (even more radar guru, also passed away unfortunately). It may may help you to decide if people going under red on final are riding their luck or actually making a reasonable judgment. |
A TS is a CB, but a CB is not necessarily a TS. The WX radar detects precipitation intensity, so a red cell can be whatever. To fly through a red cell is not very unusual. BOM in the monsoon season has a CB/TS on final to runway 27 nearly all the time. Everybody flies through it. It’s about reading the whole wx picture. Cloud tops? Lightning? Just rain? What do you do if the radar shows red from from one end to the other? I have once flown through a micro burst. Not fun. In that case the wx radar showed green/yellow with some small red dots. No real red flags, but there it was. Massive rain, so hard we could barely hear each other. The aircraft kept flying. Just. I’m amazed the engines kept working, but I’m still here. |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10534709)
A TS is a CB, but a CB is not necessarily a TS. The WX radar detects precipitation intensity, so a red cell can be whatever. To fly through a red cell is not very unusual. BOM in the monsoon season has a CB/TS on final to runway 27 nearly all the time. Everybody flies through it. It’s about reading the whole wx picture. Cloud tops? Lightning? Just rain? What do you do if the radar shows red from from one end to the other? I have once flown through a micro burst. Not fun. In that case the wx radar showed green/yellow with some small red dots. No real red flags, but there it was. Massive rain, so hard we could barely hear each other. The aircraft kept flying. Just. I’m amazed the engines kept working, but I’m still here. You claim to be surprised that you didn’t crash after flying through a microburst but also say everyone flies through CBs on approach. Where I am from we would not make an approach, and I’m never surprised that we didn’t crash. |
Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
(Post 10534800)
Please tell me who you work for so I may avoid them in my travels. You claim to be surprised that you didn’t crash after flying through a microburst but also say everyone flies through CBs on approach. Where I am from we would not make an approach, and I’m never surprised that we didn’t crash. In the case of BOM runway 27, yes, everybody goes through that CB. And there can be big variations between CBs. |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10535005)
Read again. We had no idea we had a microburst ahead of us. Nothing on the radar gave us a warning. No big red cells,
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10535005)
I have once flown through a micro burst. Not fun. In that case the wx radar showed green/yellow with some small red dots. Again, please tell me which carrier it is so I can avoid flying with you. |
Whilst we’re on the topic of BOM and CB’s - an alternative question if I may... I’ll be heading there tomorrow - although ts not my first visit it will be the first time I’ve been during the wet monsoon. Does anyone have any experience of opting not to fly through a CB on final when everyone else is? In my experience local ATC are generally good - but as I say I’m yet to go when conditions are a little more adverse... Any other top tips welcome too - how does the runway state hold up? Thanks in advance... |
Originally Posted by Smokey Lomcevak
(Post 10535654)
Whilst we’re on the topic of BOM and CB’s - an alternative question if I may... I’ll be heading there tomorrow - although ts not my first visit it will be the first time I’ve been during the wet monsoon. Does anyone have any experience of opting not to fly through a CB on final when everyone else is? In my experience local ATC are generally good - but as I say I’m yet to go when conditions are a little more adverse... Any other top tips welcome too - how does the runway state hold up? Thanks in advance... |
Originally Posted by Smokey Lomcevak
(Post 10535654)
Whilst we’re on the topic of BOM and CB’s - an alternative question if I may... I’ll be heading there tomorrow - although ts not my first visit it will be the first time I’ve been during the wet monsoon. Does anyone have any experience of opting not to fly through a CB on final when everyone else is? In my experience local ATC are generally good - but as I say I’m yet to go when conditions are a little more adverse... Any other top tips welcome too - how does the runway state hold up? Thanks in advance... |
As Sonicbum mentions in high moisture areas the entire radar screen can be red. A TS isn’t 40 nm by 40 nm but that’s what the radar display will show. The newer radars that allow you to desensitize the radar returns helps. If if you don’t have a newer radar, that allows desensitization, remember the overall radar image at top of descend, or lower, before the entire display goes red. Years ago descending into a tropical storm I had a senior CKA/training manager on the Jumpseat. I mentioned ‘red out.’ He’d never heard of it (they don’t fly as much as regular line pilots) and was skeptical. At altitude it was obvious, both with the naked eye and radar, that a big cell was over the final waypoint of the STAR. After descending into the heavy moisture the TS return was lost as the entire screen turned red. We deviated around the known weather based on its location from the radar display before it went entirely red. Today it might be worth using your camera to take a picture of the radar display. Fortunately the vast majority of our fleet has the improved radars that allow desensitization. Phone cameras as can also be used to view a dim radar display in bright light. Put you camera lens so that it displays the ND or particularly a radar return. It greatly increases the brightness of the ND display. |
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
(Post 10534709)
A TS is a CB, but a CB is not necessarily a TS. The WX radar detects precipitation intensity, so a red cell can be whatever. it is easy to tell those who fly through rain regularly and those that don’t. Green on a wx radar just means 4 mm/ hr or less rain, yellow between 4 and 12 mm/hr and red > 12 mm/hr. 12 mm of rain per hour in the tropics is not unusual and does not indicate a TS alone. Pilots need to be able to use tilt, gain and mode. They need to effectively use manual gain, Wx Turb, and tilt. Boeing and Airbus have no technical objection to flying through rain or landing when it’s raining. |
Originally Posted by swh
(Post 10536016)
Boeing and Airbus have no technical objection to flying through rain or landing when it’s raining. |
I’ve held on a 15nm final to wait for a CB with sparks coming out of it to move away as it was between us and the runway. At the same time two other aircraft went straight thru. Held for 8 mins, then a beautiful smooth approach. Each to their own! :) |
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