crappy situation, advise needed A320
 

Hello again fellow aviators, i was in a crappy situation and im new, so i really appreciate some advise from the more experienced. Heres the situation, on descend, we were told to level off around FL340 and reduce speed to minimum due traffic ahead and below for sequencing. So i reduced speed to around greendot, VLS was very near as far as i can remember. Once cleared to descend, i went for open decend, we were obviously too high, but being above FL250, i was thinking hard, i cant extend gears, i cant extend flaps (FL200 limit), VLS was so near my target speed, i dare not use the speed brakes because the VLS will increase, i didn't know what to do, captain was getting pist, started shouting loudly, "Increase your speed a little and use your speed brakes!!!" i said okay capt, so i bumped up abit of speed, around 20 kts if i recall correctly, and started to use the speedbrakes gently, monitoring the VLS, at this point, Captain exploded, he yelled "SPEED BRAKES FULL!!!!, and he slammed my hand down the lever, i was like "Wow!" i was shocked and abit confused, scared because ive never seen anyone done this before. As far as i knew, part of emergency descend procedures is that after twist pull, twist pull, pull, announce FMA, speedbrakes full. Caution using speedbrakes, VLS increases significantly. But i never really studied what happens if you wack it full with VLS shooting up. Anyway, VLS shot up and speed kept increasing to remain above it. At this point i was blur as hell, i wasnt too sure what was happening. Is it ok to do that? what the captain asked me to? and can someone explain to me...what was happening please? thank you in advance

I don't fly the bus but your Captain sounds like he belongs in a museum with all the other prehistorics

Sounds like a crap captain to me! In that situation you were absolutely correct to be careful as you extend the speed brakes. If you really are looking to be crazy high it usually makes sense to ask ATC to allow you to briefly increase speed so as you can lose the height. ATC nearly always will let you do it briefly and then bring the speed back again. At low speeds the speedbrakes don't do much anyway!

Things never change with some captains or instructors - simulator or real aeroplane. Screaming skulls are still around as this unfortunate A320 first officer found out. if nothing else, it proves that CRM and all that useless politically correct jazz is wasted on such characters because they never change.

Interestingly, I was reading a book called "From Farmyards to Beaufort Bogeys" by a former wartime Beaufort pilot who fought in the SW Pacific war. His name is Col Hobson. In it he makes scathing comment on one of his former flying instructors. In describing his early training as a RAAF trainee pilot on Tiger Moths, he wrote:

"Well, what happened was I learned to fly to the standard required and it turned out to be the biggest challenge of my life. On quite a few occasions , after a torrid sesion with an instructor, I would think `What the hell am I doing this for?' It would have been so easy to chicken out at this stage because all you had to do was deliberately fly badly for two or three sessions on Tiger Moths with an instructor, and you would find yourself transferred, preferably to a safe ground job. One particular instructor on Ansons was a pig of a man. Sharing a session or two with him he obviously thought I did not deserve to get my wings."


Col Hobson is now over 90 yet he remembers that bitter experience seventy years later. The adage "People may not remember what you did or what you said - but they will always remember how you made them feel," is as true in 2012 as it was in the 1940's.

As they grow older, most pilots have a clear recollection of "Bastards I have met" during their career whether airline, military or general aviation. The original poster is to be admired for putting his experience on Pprune.

Captain sounds like an ar$ehole. What you did was correct. Slamming full speed brake out can lead to their auto retraction if VLS increases significantly. If as a result of your scenario you end up high in the latter stages of the approach (< 20 nm) DON'T increase your speed - you just end up putting more energy into the aircraft. Slow and configure or ask ATC for a few extra track miles.

The Captain you were with should be ashamed of himself - what a truly awful example to set. Pathetic really.

A4

The Captain is obviously prehistoric in his attitude and CRM. I would suggest your initial acions were correct. If ATC want to to slow down and expedite, ask for extra track miles. You shouldn't compromise safe flight - not that the Airbus will let you. And don't let idiots such as him bully you.

Thanks for the morale support fellow aviators, sadly its just the way it is for most companies in Asia, but for me, i have accepted the fact that time to time, i will have to put up with harsh and old school hardcore captains. So for that part, its disturbing at times but i try not to think about it...

What concerns me the most is how to fix that situation, to be honest, when "we" brought down the speed brakes lever to full, honestly i wasn't too sure if the speed started to increase alongside with the VLS, or the VLS shot up n stopped right before the target speed, all i knew that there was some sort of protection, my mind is rusty and i n im still cracking the manuals to find out what happened, but if any of you guys can explain to me a lil about it, i would really appreciate it.

Also, i appreciate some of the tips given from you guys, i also gave it a thought
Maybe:
1. I could ask ATC for a hold somewhere to reduce altitude and give the traffic ahead a better lead seperation?

2.Or inform ATC of my situation and request vectors for better spacing? as Dan Winterland suggested

3.or try to coordinate with the traffic ahead and ATC, if possible, request the traffic ahead to speed up? (but that wouldn't be too nice would it for the other guy? having to come in fast and configure after that)

What do you guys think? any other options or suggestions? im all open

To the first question as to what to do
Does your company have a no fly list?

Maybe if enough FOs get on it the Chief pilot will take some interst sorry you had to deal with such an dick...but it will help you to know exactly what type of captain you don't want to be!

As to the second you can't coodinate trafic---simply say 'unable' and let ATC deal with it...if you'd like to hold ask..but never put yourself in a hold voluntarily let ATC make you...just ask..and [hopefully] it shall be given unto you..Never let ATC dictate what you need to do--- try to help them when you can but don't let them fly your airplane for you-as many WILL try!

:)

Yeah, that makes sense..thanks buddy, another point noted

Anytime partner...;)

one other thing I just thought of keep your learning active that way you can lecture the crappy captains in a pleasant way as to how stupid they're really being...;););)

Flap 2, 180 knots selected will create a good sink rate. If you take speed brakes too it'll drop like a stone - SO BE CAREFUL < 4000'!

The secret is to act early. FMGC predictions are all well and good - provided the flight plan is sequenced, descent winds are inserted etc...... but always back it up with the basics i.e. 3 x your height + 5 miles to slow down (10 in the early days!) So at 15,000' you need (approx) 50-55 track miles.

If you can see you're already going slightly high on profile - act on it - early. Also look at the wind arrow on your ND headwind or tailwind - act accordingly. as others have said if ATC ask for something you can't comfortably achieve tell them.

Practice makes perfect - good luck.

A4

Making a judgement on being high on profile above FL200 is a futile exercise at best. The best thing you can do is shake off whatever stress this overbearing captain caused you, and move on. Next time it happens, do exactly what your instinct tells you and don't worry about drastic measures until you are closer in. ATC will help you lose energy 99% of the time later in the approach.

Before you 'hang' the Captain I had a different take -

Thinking about lowering the landing gear? At FL340? Thinking about extending flaps? Brings into the discussion, about using full speedbrakes, the emergency descent actions??? Where's this train of logic coming from?

Later he talks about maybe entering holding instead. On a different thread he mentioned a panicky call to stop because he thought the nose was going to extend past the hold line.

All of this from a guy that admits he's new, and his posts and questions underline that. So it's all the Captain's fault? That's the ruling from the mob that wasn't anywhere near the event?

Had an FO, 10,000+ hrs, get all excited about the hold short line passing below our LINE OF SIGHT. Not that we were going to cross it, but that it was disappearing from our forward field of view. GMAFB. :{ We can't see for about 50' in front of the a/c. So his standard would have us hold 50' short of every line?

For all we know, after several sectors, or days, of similar reasoning or judgement calls the Captain had reached the same state of mind (GMAFB). We've heard one side and he hardly qualifies as an expert, or unbiased, observer.

You are right about me being new and not knowing much...infact some may call me a dumb pilot, for me, i don't care, im here to learn more and to get better at what i do, that is the reason in the first place i started asking questions.

Everything i told regarding the situation is as honest as i can remember. As i also said, i try not to think about the captain's part about exploding and getting pist at me, what matters to me is how to fix that situation if that were to happen again. I think most of the comments here isn't blaming the captain about the situation, but more about the way the captain carried himself, attitude wise and self control over emotions, and i strongly agree with all of them that he was going overboard at times. But like i said, all those isn't in my best interest or my research, its all about solving the problem, so in the end, captain won't get so pist off when the same situation occurs to us.

So i appreciate it if you don't take it so personally captain. I am here to learn, so if you will, teach me a bit on how to solve that situation, care to share some light about it captain?

'
Had an FO, 10,000+ hrs, get all excited about the hold short line passing below our LINE OF SIGHT. Not that we were going to cross it, but that it was disappearing from our forward field of view. GMAFB. We can't see for about 50' in front of the a/c. So his standard would have us hold 50' short of every line? '


Let me understand you correctly.
I think you are saying you passed the hold short line while taxiing as it went below your line of sight.


Don't know what type you are operating but most transport Aircraft Cockpits project a fair distance ahead of the nosewheel so you are past the hold line.


Or do you think, like some that if the nosewheel is short of the line then you are ?!

Airman25 Have you ever read DP Davies' Handling The Big Jets...I will tell you it really will help you with these matters in the future....;)


:):):)

hey!

first- know that 99% of the replys are from non real commercial aviatiors even when they claim since its an open anonymous forum. second- do not get you rush by atc, there is always a second to think about it. third- follow the captain and discuss it after the event. you learn from every flight - the same he does !

try to keep relaxed, it comes with experience, cheers !

You are never going t change the Captains behaviour so concenrate on the things that you can influence.
1/ Your reaction to a shouting Captain (are you happy with your reaction, what will you do differently next time etc etc)
2/ Your knowledge. (You are already addressing this by asking a question on here but that will never be as effective as getting into your books and understanding your aircraft.)

stilton - w/b aircraft. We were obviously short of the hold short line. Radome short of the line. Nose gear is 8-10' behind us. Radome to nose gear is 20'.

During pushback we can never see the tug. On the walk around it's obvious that the tug is forward of the end of the radome.

Recent FO said "I can't get over how it looks like we're going off into the grass. I know the nose gear is far behind us but I still can't get over it."

With a blind spot extending 50' ahead of us we never see the taxiway edges immediately ahead of us while doing 90 turns on taxiways. The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet.

Just two questions about your statement here

If you think 99% of us are fake why do you bother even coming to here?
If you really can't tell who knows what they are talking about or not don't you think that you may have chosen the wrong profession?

Just saying...:zzz:

Sometimes bad ATC handling puts you high and in a bind as we were coming into Seattle one day in icing conditions. I had to hold a higher power setting because of the anti icing.

They finally cleared us down on downwind in an MD80 so to make a decent approach used the speed brakes to full. The captain said don't use the speed brakes, they buffet too much so I stowed them. We are really high so he says when do you want to turn base. I said I don't know because he wouldn't let me fly with the icing conditions with speed brakes so extended about 14 miles to get down with the anti ice on and no drag. I was irritated enough I didn't care if I had to fly into Canada to turn.

In your situation I probably would have increased 20 knots and used speed brakes if ATC could authorize it. If it makes it impossible because they want you to stay slow and expedite decent just say it is one or the other.

Once you become a captain life gets so much better. Hang on. When an FO asked me which way to go or how to descend I just said I'm operating the radio, you are flying.

Of course you help your FO learn if he wants help but leading your FO around using your style intices him to try to read your mind, not do what he wants to do. He is going to be a captain some day and letting him figure his own way around a thunderstorm is much better then leading him around it every time. He needs confidence in his own judgement, not trying to please the captain.

Airmen25 - it's been my experience the less confident the pilot, or Captain, the smaller the tolerance window they have. It's a tough situation to work under. But it can also be viewed as a challenge. If you can stay within the 'box' that keeps them more relaxed you'll operate better as a team.

I wish there was a perfect answer for flying with a difficult or even unreasonable Captain. Part of experience is learning how to 'read' the Captain. No, they don't have a license to be Captain Quegg(google 'The Caine Mutiny') but each crew, or Captain, is slightly different. A good Captain will adjust just as good FO's adjust to the dynamics of a different crew.

You mentioned that you were on a trip as a second FO. Watch the more experienced FO's when you're the second FO. It can be a great learning experience. I'd pay extra attention to see how the Captains, or more experienced FO's, deal with situations that are slight different than standard operations. That's the value of experience, turning potentially interesting situations into anticlimactic events.

ma, you are right on about captains that are weak. Their window is very narrow. I hated flying with them or with the ultra egos so swore I would never do it when I got in the left seat. We were a small airline flying 737's with pilots expected to be captains in a few years so all had experience and it was a small fun flying club. Everybody knew how to fly jets when hired.

Then we got bought by the mega airline everything was different. The mega airline FO's prefered flying with us because it was such an easy day. Just fly and enjoy the job. No BS.

We figured out how to make the mega airline job fun too.

I tried to always fly the first leg with a new guy only because he would know what I preferred. Then he could do anything he wanted within reason. We had some very aggressive pilots and conservative pilots so it was polite to show him what you preferred. Most complied.

Yeah i heard, its a very good book, ive been planning to get it, but at the mean time ive gotta cover my FCOMs first, and thanks very much for the advise and tips. As for the other guys who are talking 101% BS, your replies are a waste of space and my time, if you're going to keep criticizing me and others who are giving feedback regarding the questions in the first place, i suggest you go join a "waste my time" or "im too pro for amateurism" forum.

misd-again: "The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet."

It was an A320

'stilton - w/b aircraft. We were obviously short of the hold short line. Radome short of the line. Nose gear is 8-10' behind us. Radome to nose gear is 20'.

During pushback we can never see the tug. On the walk around it's obvious that the tug is forward of the end of the radome.

Recent FO said "I can't get over how it looks like we're going off into the grass. I know the nose gear is far behind us but I still can't get over it."

With a blind spot extending 50' ahead of us we never see the taxiway edges immediately ahead of us while doing 90 turns on taxiways. The distance from the end of our field of view to the nose gear is 70'. Add in the height above the ground, the large blind spot, distance to the nose gear behind us and it's much different than taxiing a narrow body jet'


Misunderstood you, there are a few Pilots out there that think they are complying with the hold short line with everything forward of the nosegear hanging over it !

Bubbers44 really like your reply, and yes that kind of captain will really help and encourage his f/o to be a good capt some day,when his time comes. If we as f/o s get a capt who lets us learn from our mistakes ans well as teach us and build our confidence we would really appreciate it us like others have said not all fingers are alike , and most of them aren't there to help u out, so for a new f/o u have to figure things out the hard way initially.

reuben Too true....thats why i said, i just learn to accept it

How high were you actually? approx track miles when u were cleared to descent below 340?

Anyway.......since it's ATC "fault" cos they kept u high and restricted your speed...just inform the ATC that either u increase speed or due to the restricted ATC speed, you will be requesting extra track miles to lose height.

Depending on how high you are....increase speed might not be enough to regain profile. In that case, just request extra track miles to lose height. They won't force you to do an approach if you warn them you are too high.

I can't recall exactly what was the track miles left, i did use my mental calculation 3Xtrack miles, due low speed and also crossed checked the yoyo, both indications were high, yoyo way off, my own calculation aprox 2000ft to kill, as for ATC's part, it didn't crossed my mind at that time about the option u mentioned, because i was too fixated on trying to kill height by my own, its the first time i encountered such a situation, being high and having to slow down and at the same time having to kill height. Many other seniors did told me that the ATC at our home base, does not do a very good job for separation as well in the past, but ive never got a taste of it till the other day. Well, from all the tips and advise and calling up another captain for advise, im starting to learn about how to deal with that situation.

crappy situation, advise needed A320
 

2000' too high with 50nm to run is ok, but not with 15 to run... Don't know where you were so can't comment. It's obvious to me your stress was stressing the captain, not much you can do as you'll see through your career you'll fly with pilots actually scared of flying! As others have said, watch others fly and learn from them, mentally fly the a/c with them and see what they do differently and why, judge from the outcome, even take notes of your own shortcomings and think about them doing chair flying, or trying things out on your pc with flight simulators.
Don't worry we've all been there, but as for me, I'm proud to say I learn every day from everyone I fly with;)

I did a few observation flights already, infact, i requested extra observation flights and went for more than the original scheduled to the point the scheduler said i needed to town down, i did took down notes, i did radio calls, i did ask questions, i treasured every second i got during those times. It indeed helped me alot when i went for line training, it helped me sort out my paperwork, improved my scan flow, my SOP and much more, however, there is only so much you can get from the observation flights, out of all of it that ive done, most were high speed descents, and there wasn't a situation where i recently encountered, thats the sole reason why i couldn't cope up with the situation, its my first encounter. But like everyone else, im also learning everyday.

Honestly speaking, when i explained about the situation to everyone here, my main point was to explain the scenario as honest as possible and primarily to get information on how to solve the situation regarding being high and slow, and wether it was ok to deploy full speedbrakes with the VLS so near? not to crucify the captain. However, it seems that some people get offended by the scenario i described, and keep talking about the CRM part about it. For me, during that time, after being confused awhile, my mind was back into trying to get the bird down and configuration, also monitoring the traffic ahead on the ND. My mind was focused on the task, not so much about how the captain treated me.

But if people want to keep talking about the captain and making it a hot topic. Heres my take on that, firstly i really wished he would have just gave me a small reassurance to his decision before slamming my hand down the lever, like say "don't worry, its ok, just do it" or "Vls will drop as we decend, do it now", then i would have, no questions asked at that time, no doubts. However, what he did at that spilt second, didn't seem logic to me, therefore i was hesitant, it felt like he was ordering me to walk across a highway with speeding cars going by, if he would just told me "don't worry they will slow down to let you cross, cross now" i would have, what im saying is just an example of how i see it. Maybe it was my fault, not knowing the aircraft systems well enough, but im trying and learning.

As for my personal feelings towards the captain, a part of me is sad, a part of me is dissapointed by the way he trained me and a part of me is also dissapointed with my own ability to handle that situation at that time, but a captain will always be a captain, and i respect that, i will still salute him for his rank, he earned it, but i do not salute him as an individual, not anymore and whoever has a problem with that, im sorry, but thats how i feel and i believe i am entitled to my own personal feelings. As i said also, i try to put that part about the captain behind me, and i believe i have gathered enough info on this matter. Tonight, im heading to the academy with some of my batch mates to study, discuss about issues in flight and to practice the FMGS software. Once again, thank you everyone for their thoughts and opinion, and if possible i would like to put a full stop to this thread.

Hi,

So always bear in mind that you descend way better at high flight levels than below 10.000feet!
So If you are high @ FL250, at a low speed, initially select your speed and put it up! Select 300kts, you will decend believe me!
Then, if you re still way too high! Use half Speed brakes!
Then if you re still WAY too high, use FULL speed brakes and disconnect the A/P because remember with the A/P ON, the speed brakes will only extend to half deflection!
If all of this is not enough... well think about other options!
-Request MORE track miles (if vectored)
-Ask to enter a hold
Bear in Mind ATC is there to help you out! If you are not comfortable with their vectors or the way they will shortcut you TELL THEM UNABLE!

I hope it helps!

Below 10.000feet, as stated in an above post, config 2, Non standard L/G down, you will "fall" like a stone!

All the best, and happy flying!;)

Can you you back up such statement with a FCOM reference ?

The reference
 

FCOM

DSC-27-10-20 P 8/24

Regards

Airman25 I truly believe when you have more time that HTBJ will sort out all of these problems with energy management on the approach for you---it's a very easy and approachable book and many an experienced jet pilot's 'Bible'...Mr. Davies has a great and slightly sarcastic sense of humor too...:ok:

I know you're busy with getting to grips with company procedures and such but please do try and read our Bible it may even make the procedures far less abstract ...


:)

How about this for a start?

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...DESC-SEQ02.pdf

In addition your real "Bible" is the FCTM

axeIFR: i see, yeah i missed that point about AP off with speedbrakes full...point noted, but about bumping up my speed to 300kts, like i said, i couldn't do that time due traffic ahead, lower than me. Thanks for the tips and straight to the point summary.

Pugilistic: Should have ordered that book when i had the chance, gotta look for it again, its hard to get those kinda books in Malaysia unless ordered via internet, but a lot of seniors recommend it, must be really something that book. Thanks.

SW1: Wow...thanks for the link, good stuff!