Raw data manual flight - Airlines
 

Hello everyone!

"These days airlines seem to prefer operators to pilots."

That's a quote from a captain I spoke with today. We had an interesting discussion on the decline of airline pilots' abilities to fly their aircraft manually. Why don't we continue that here?

0) Airline and aircraft
1) The general policy on manual flight
2) Your personal policy and opinion
3) Any remarks

0)
Ryanair + Boeing 737-800 no mixed fleet

1)
departure : FD + AT/AP ON for NADP1 at 3000ft AGL and for NADP2 at 1000ft AGL.

approach ILS : AT/AP OFF before DH
approach NPA : AT/AP OFF when visual

2)
departure : FD + AP OFF & AT ON. No automatics below 10,000ft.
approach: FD + AT/AP OFF below 15,000ft

3)
on departure I leave AT in for accurate N1 selection. Often I find myself having to level off because of track restrictions. Leaving AT in and using the N1 switch (737) allows for easy disconnecting and reconnecting after subsequent climb clearance has been received.

on approach I prefer to have all automatics and FD's off. By default I ask for a visual approach except for certain destinations where I know it will not be possible. In that case it is either raw data ILS or NPA.

This is all with consideration for the weather in mind. But I would say the majority of my personal flying is manual.

What is your perception on manual flight and what are the rules in your company?

Best regards!

Autopilot and flight director use (744) is required for procedures requiring RNP2 or less (US SIDs and STARs, RNAV approaches). Otherwise it is at the Captain's discretion. All sim training emphasizes the use of autoflight, to the extent that many new FOs cannot easily revert to manual flight when the automatics get into the "What's it doing now?!?" mode. I even saw one crew NOT recommended for a PC on a warmup (requiring another sim session) because the Captain did not use all the magic (including VNAV) for a 2-engine visual approach -- even though he flew a perfectly acceptable manual approach.

Unfortunately, policies and procedures are being dictated by pilots who have little experience in the airplane and/or who don't understand the necessity of building good stick-and-rudder skills beyond the FMS. Then they wonder why so few pilots bid over to the 747 Classic fleet...

How good is your lookout? Into a busy airport you are not operating as safely as possible.
If your company SOP is AP on for those NADP's can you justify why you choose to disregard the rules?

0) DC-9, A310, B-727/737/757/767

1) As required for workload management. F/D + A/T for departure. Approach required below 200/.5.

2) A/P typically on between 5,000-20,000'...or sooner if I've had enough. Sometimes sooner if terrain, weather, or departure procedures create a higher workload (see point #1).

Cruise? No. Or handfly to TOC? No. It's a waste of time in my opinion to hand fly that long. I used to talk about the need to practice hand flying with my hands off the yoke(to demonstrate my point). With the a/c trimmed to 'on speed', while using slight rudder pressure to control roll, you can 'hand fly' for thousands of feet while never touching the yoke.

On arrival A/P typically comes off between 5,000'-10,000' for VFR arrivals. Typically hand fly approaches with weather greater than 300' and 2 miles vis.

A/T's can stay on as long as they behave. If it's bumpy, or gusty, they're off(power up, power back, power up, power back...:ugh:how about bracketing the power required??? Oops, that requires a pilot) :{

d105,
I bet you're really popular to fly with?

Sounds like 'Ryanair' aren't working you hard enough!

Flight simmer alert :D

I think Intruder and I must fly for the same airline. :ugh:

It always comes back to the money. I wish that the new "1500 law" included a provision to grant 4 hours of sim time every six months to be used solely at the pilot's discretion. All we have now is a bunch of BS talk!

I take every opportunity possible to hand fly, and I am grateful to the Captains that allow it.

In my company FD must always be used unless cleared for a visual approach with no descent restriction.

The EMB145 doesn't have autothrottle so always manual thrust.

On take off normal practice is AP on at 1000ft AGL

Personal preference is to hand fly to TOC when weather nice and clear, smooth and workload fairly low. In reality that is about one in 15 sectors.

I've handflown 2 complete sectors by choice in 4 years.

I never handfly in the sim unless the AP is u/s!

On approach company states AP use dictated by conditions and workload imposed on other pilot, ie, busy RT while dodging CBs into LHR not a good time to handfly. AP off by DH.

Generally folks disconnect AP at about 2 to 3 miles, between 500 and 1000ft agl once stabilised. Earlier if gusty, perhaps later if very smooth and AP doing a good job.

I once did a raw data (FD off) visual approach on a line check, and while it went well I'd never do it again, too big a risk of digging yourself a hole compared with AP on ILS. Line trainer said he's never seen anyone do a visual on check before!

A340-600, ex-A330-200/300, ex-A320/A319.

My airline encourages autoflight from climb-1 to DH. However, the keyword there is "encourages".

For me, I am a very hands on pilot when handling the takeoff/landing legs. I rarely use autopilot/autothrottle below 10,000' unless I have high workload. I am surprised at a lot of young pilots nowadays who can't climb to an altitude and level off without the aid of FD/Autopilot. One of my first officers levelled off at 8000' manually but couldn't hold the altitude within +/-100ft. Disgraceful.

A lot of people on here said that a majority of commercial pilots would have been able to land on the Hudson back in January 2009. I very much doubt that. They would have engaged the autopilot and flew the entire descent down automatically.

Some quite interesting comments.

No mention of the impact omn the PNF of "flying all the way to cruise level"

No mention of RVSM either.

Where is this happening because if someone finds a nice quiet place and hand flies to 10,000 then that is nice but as someone else said once established in a long climb in a straight line what is the problem (unless you can't trim) - those with autotrim not included!!

For arrival in my experience there are the busy TMA's where maximum crew capacity is best and the very quiet places - with almost zero atc where again maximum crew capacity is best.

So yes great idea to hand-fly the ils when established but one has to ask - in the situations where you can handfly without overloading the pnf/pm, and it is not in a straight line to a much higher level then fill your boots (for those few seconds)

Want to keep current with handflying then find a piper cub and a windy day!!

DFC, if you rarely hand fly, then you'll get the shock of your life when your entire AFDS breaks!

Thanks for the responses so far. As I expected the opinions vary, which is a good thing! However I'd like to emphasize using automatics does not guarantee more safety. As was recently shown by Turkish Airlines in Amsterdam. I also notice regional differences. Especially the English and German companies tend to be very AFDS/VNAV reliant, wheras my experiences in Belgian and Italian companies are completely to the contrary.

Really? At what stage after take off do you disconnect the autothrust then?

No they wouldn't, if you had as much Airbus experience as you claim then you would know why...

That attitude is killing RPT jet pax in increasing numbers. :=

Quite simple.
Manual flying with/without the flight director/autothrust is completely at the descretion of the flying pilot, regardless of weather and destination, with the exception of CAT II/III.

IE: if pilots can't fly the airplane, they don't get hired.
Period.

Absolute nonsense.:rolleyes:

Well, if this were true, it would be the definitive argument for the removal of humans from the flight deck.

I wonder. I rarely do much hand flying, occasionally going until it's clean after take off (and then only in daylight and VMC). At night I can't recall the last time I disconnected before 1000'. That didn't seem to affect things when we recently had the aircraft drop back to alternate law, without any AP or FD. Although we were bit sick of it after 5 hours. And it never seems to be an issue in the sim.

Curiously, the pilots I've flown with who are most keen to do things manually, have the least awareness of what is happening around them, often pretty poor ability to fly the a/c via the automatics, and most curiously of all, the worst manual flying skills.

As for the reliability of the aids. I've seen a couple of autopilots fail on Boeings, but in every case, another was able to be engaged. Autothrottles die every now and then. I've never seen the F/D fail in 16,000 hours of flying Boeing, but it only took about 300 to see it happen on an Airbus.

Airlines adapt their recurrent training to cover the most likely scenarios in the limited time available in the sim.

Granted, but some of us don't necessarily concur with the assessments as done. Having said that, the statistics ought to cover the bulk of the work (and the Regulator has a significant say) with the caveat that some time should be available for crews to extend themselves and maintain/develop skills

I've only ever had to operate 2 sectors on the 737 without the AP and we still had the FD and AT.

If that's an acceptable argument, then why do we similarly "waste" time with training for engine failures, given that modern engines are very reliable as well ?

you're kidding yourself if you think that hand flying enhances safety because the opposite is true.

Perhaps you might cite some objective evidence to support such a wide-sweeping statement. Certainly, in some circumstances we would all acknowledge that it makes more sense to drive with the automatics on. However that doesn't cover all bases ....

One of the bigger german airlines, boeing fleet, the manual states

Of course it has to be briefed and weather and traffic situation should be taken into consideration. However hand flying with or without flight director is pretty common, mostly during approaches and for some time after departure, a few elect to do it until cruising altitude. Of course learning and using all available AFDS modes is important as well, especially in a fleet with quite a few equipment differences (IAN, GLS, Fail Operational).

SIM training puts some emphasis on it as well with either visual circuits or raw data OEI in gusty conditions and wind at the crosswind limit as well as some raw data airwork.

Aviophage, you say and your experience is all Airbus FBW. Do you mean that after T/O you disengage A/THR and fly the departures using manual thrust? That sounds really interesting and I wonder what the advantages are from your perspective. More info please!

It is probably easier to come up with a whole bunch of reasons why NOT to handfly, than to learn how to do it.

Not sure if this is true or not, but no reason to doubt it.

I was told that SABENA used to have a policy that 1 in 4 sectors (on average) was to be completely hand flown. No autopilot, no authrottle, no flight directors. From take off to landing. Obviously didn't apply on long haul as that really isn't feasible.

Have to say the one ex sabenien that i had the pleasure of flying with was an excellent pilot both in manual and auto flight.

Well, at Sabena (and other Belgian airlines ), it was GOP (Good Operator Practice) to regulary handfly the complete climb/descend without the damn FD. It was done by everyone, from the first line-training sector.
The training filosophy was to first show/train to fly the aircraft raw-data in a smooth way up to SN standard, and then focus on the various tools that the aircraft has regarding autoflight/management. It proved very safe as there were no accidents since 1961, and still Belgian pilots are regarded as very proficient in general.:ok:
The Flight director is for me only a tool to see what the aircraft autopilot system wants to do, and if I do not agree, it is NOT followed. The flight-crew is still the boss, NOT THE COMPUTER.

Any airline that discourages manual flight is in my opinion a hazard to fly on. Any pilot not wanting to fly manually has no business in the cockpit. Mind you, this has to be compensated with adequate training. Flying manually is not just trying to keep altitude, speed and heading. It need to be done in a smooth way, and without losing your sit. awareness. All too often do I see collegues yanking the yoke like their life depends on it where a little pressure is sufficient...:rolleyes:

Everybody can fly a raw data departure without FD and AP. Some guys just follow the magenta line. For me that´s laughable. So put the automatics on if you follow the magenta line. Raw data means to me: track the QDMs and radials. Fly as published and do not follow the box. Many collegues dont fly raw data on departure. Why? As preceeding replies say: the FD never failed in 16 years. Be professional.

Flying approaches is another thing. In scandinavia we have many airports which are calm and we can fly every approach we want. Last month i think i fly 2 FD approaches manual. All the other were rawdata out of 7000ft. I feel very good with my aircraft and i finally think its a personal thing. i have seen guys flying every approach with AP and FD down to 200ft at cavok. Every approach. that means in 4 days at least 9 sectors. and they feel good. i couldnt and wouldnt do it like that.

sometimes i have times where the landings get harder. dont know why. i have now more than 3000hours on the 737 and that really sucks;-) any experience on that?

May be so...but it has to be done at an appropriate stage. I'm sure you aren't advocating doing this launching into the London TMA?
Another thing to consider..whilst in the UK many SID's are promulgated on BRNAV (RNP5), increasingly, SID's and STAR's elsewhere are being redesigned to be flown as PRNAV departure and arrival's...hardly appropriate to flick the FD off and track a QDR me thinks.
The biggest problem in my view is the single lack of common sense when it comes to being able to fly visual arrivals or departures...IMHO a far more relevant use of basic flying skills, than say flying pitch and power based on a weight. I was certainly the most on the ball I ever was when I was charter flying down to the med with the bucket and spade operator, where we did a lot of visual approaches and departures.

Because its done in the sim not on the line with passengers in the back.


From a CRM or threat and error management standpoint I find it hard to justify throwing away around half a pilot's worth of resources ( only an estimate IMHO) to better prepare oneself for an AP or FD failure. I did not imply that hand flying was unsafe and it might even be worth accepting a slight degradation of situational awareness by the crew to maintain handling skills. My view is that I can operate to the highest level of safety by making full use of the automatics and that is what the passengers have a right to expect.

I would like to be better at manual flying and probably don't do enough, but departing london TMA with it's many level offs, heading and frequency changes on raw data might be bad "threat error management"
Those of us who are bus drivers, are really just setting an attitude which the computer holds anyway.
If you look at the failures on a bus that would lead to loss of A/P and F/D and require raw data flying (eg dual SFCC) most would not leave you in normal law,
so maybe we need to practice direct law flying as well.
If I am ever (un)fortunate enough to fly with A340 chap who never uses automatics below 10,000 and never touches speedbrakes due to perfect descent planning, I will offer to turn a couple of flight control computers off for him as well and prepare to be amazed at his skills.

0)
737 CL+NG

1)
Operator policy is max use of auto flight. However, allowing any level of automation for practice "during initial departure and approach" when consideration is given to workload and environmental conditions.

2)
I agree completely with my company manual, although my definition of when initial departure ends and when approach begins maybe a bit more stretched than intended. Also the manual doesn't say how often practice is necessary.

3)
Departure:
Normally I will fly with FD/AT on, AP off till clean, and if turning departure till first turn completed - ranging from 4000 - FL100 feet typically. If I am tired or in a busy place (and/or the other guy is tired or not up to par) I will turn the AP on in 1000 feet.

I happily fly raw data departures (A/T off as well) WHEN situation permitting. For me this means home base or non-busy environments + good wx till acceleration altitude, incase of engine failure. I often also choose depending if I find the departure interesting to hand fly (no point or fun in hand flying a straight RNAV departure). I continue to TOC or till I have had enough. I do this 3 or 4 times on average pr. month.

About raw data level off:
Yes, everyone need practice! That is if you want to do them nicely.
Nicely for me means: On speed, at 1500 before, start reduce to exactly 1000fpm, so that you hit 1000fpm at 1000 feet before exactly. Keep exactly 1000fpm till level off. Level off at exact altitude on exact speed.
Most that claim they can do this, but never practice will be all over the place with speed and v/s, and climb with 200fpm the last 500 feet because they are afraid they will overshoot.

This is a good coordination exercise and will help you "keep in touch" with the aircraft in my opinion.


Approach:
The same criteria as above. I happily fly raw data from TOD but most often passing FL200 - FL150. This happens 2 times pr. week on average. Raw data also means selecting VOR/ILS full rose, so there is no descend path to look after.

Rest of the approaches are with full auto till G/S capture normally. And some to 800-500 feet if I am tired or lazy.

All assuming fair weather of course, with cloudbase lower than 800-1000 feet (or higher if high terrain) I don't fly raw data.

Visual approaches and the occasional circling is done with as much help as possible, like programming nice tracks in the FMC and so on and flying with the autopilot until a stressless takeover can be made. Why make unnecessary stress, when you can really enjoy the odd visual approach with nice orientation from e.g. the path indicator (combined with the eyes of course). If you can't do without the toys, it's another matter thought.


Why raw data:
First, I don't want to become a button pusher that can't remember how to fly! Second, I enjoy it.

Non-standard technique and even slight rudder pedal movements will cause uncomfortable skidding feeling to passengers at the rear and this may cause air-sickness.

Autopilot does a pretty good job of flying the aircraft, but in my experience has proven to be pretty useless as deciding whether or not to divert, or where the best diversion airfield is. Also pretty crap at dealing with passengers, crew, ATC and dispatchers. Humans bring quite a lot to the role that computers are way, way off being able to handle. We'll be here for a while yet, even if the nature of the job changes.

I'm like to practice manual flying to keep my skills current, but I think there is a time and a place for it, and 'every departture/arrival below 10000' is a little too sweeping for me.

Tee emm - Oh, the world's about to come to an end.

Seriously, how much rudder pressure does a trimmed a/c need to maintain level flight? Fractions of a pound of pressure? :eek: Like the passengers are going to feel that. :ugh:

Hand flying at altitude? Yeah, I can feel that. Rudder needed to maintain wings level? Imperceptible.

Misd-agin, in the UK, we use metric. Stop living in the past with imperial measurements.

Here in the UK we climb in feet, we fly nautical miles, we pressurise our hydraulics in PSI and we don't pick anal holes in peoples posts..grow up Aviophage, try and stick to the topic and quit trolling.

Mavericks
 

YouTube - BAC-111 Cockpit :rolleyes:

although they painted that centerline wrong at the end:}:ouch:

just maintain trim for steady coordinated flight and make small correction to maintain flight path:)

Indeed.

Seems that the post I made previously went over everyone's head.

What are the requirements for RVSM???????????

So it is impossible to hand fly from start to finish on most flights.

My point was that handing flying is great when the conditions are appropriate but all this talk of "I always hand-fly a complete sector every......" is happening when there is quiet traffic, relatively simple procedures and non RVSM etc which leaves most of the operators out.

There is a time and a place for hand-flying. However, the person responsible must do an informed assessment of the situation first.

Departures in manual flight at constant thrust are no big deal. If you're changing frequencies and chasing needles that's different, as it's lateral and the need to think ahead. In EFIS a/c, as someone said, following a magenta line is not really thinking ahead. However, visual approaches from anything upto 50nm out is a piloting pleasure, requires thinking ahead and not just following the VNAV diamond; even better turn it off. A manual visual low drag descending circuit with 180 direction change, or even 270 over the OM or the Rwy itself was SOP in needles & dials a/c in most of the charter destinations in the 80's & 90's. Somehow now, with more super-duper accurate TV presented MAP info some carriers discourage visual approaches and especially manual ones because crews mess them up and cause G/A's. What a statement about the qualities of todays pilots. Very sad. The most basic of avaiation manouevres is frowned upon. All that base training was for naught because they don't want you to do it with pax on board. It's too dangerous. The industry has progressed backwards. If you couldn't fly a competant visual approach at night on line in a B732 you didn't get command. Simple.

Rat5 relaxe, today we are sitting on a A380 with the coffee infront on that small table 80% less workload, 100% more salary, cool:ok::ok::ok::ok:

The 737 series all have a CWS autopilot mode. If people are a bit apprehensive of manual flying due rusty skills then simply leave the AP in CWS and hand fly through the autopilot. That way, you can whip into full automation mode quick as a flash, if you feel you can't hack it in CWS:ok:

Is that with you flying - 0r the other bloke:D