Raw data manual flight - Airlines
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Joined: Aug 2010
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From: World
Raw data manual flight - Airlines
Hello everyone!
"These days airlines seem to prefer operators to pilots."
That's a quote from a captain I spoke with today. We had an interesting discussion on the decline of airline pilots' abilities to fly their aircraft manually. Why don't we continue that here?
0) Airline and aircraft
1) The general policy on manual flight
2) Your personal policy and opinion
3) Any remarks
0)
Ryanair + Boeing 737-800 no mixed fleet
1)
departure : FD + AT/AP ON for NADP1 at 3000ft AGL and for NADP2 at 1000ft AGL.
approach ILS : AT/AP OFF before DH
approach NPA : AT/AP OFF when visual
2)
departure : FD + AP OFF & AT ON. No automatics below 10,000ft.
approach: FD + AT/AP OFF below 15,000ft
3)
on departure I leave AT in for accurate N1 selection. Often I find myself having to level off because of track restrictions. Leaving AT in and using the N1 switch (737) allows for easy disconnecting and reconnecting after subsequent climb clearance has been received.
on approach I prefer to have all automatics and FD's off. By default I ask for a visual approach except for certain destinations where I know it will not be possible. In that case it is either raw data ILS or NPA.
This is all with consideration for the weather in mind. But I would say the majority of my personal flying is manual.
What is your perception on manual flight and what are the rules in your company?
Best regards!
"These days airlines seem to prefer operators to pilots."
That's a quote from a captain I spoke with today. We had an interesting discussion on the decline of airline pilots' abilities to fly their aircraft manually. Why don't we continue that here?
0) Airline and aircraft
1) The general policy on manual flight
2) Your personal policy and opinion
3) Any remarks
0)
Ryanair + Boeing 737-800 no mixed fleet
1)
departure : FD + AT/AP ON for NADP1 at 3000ft AGL and for NADP2 at 1000ft AGL.
approach ILS : AT/AP OFF before DH
approach NPA : AT/AP OFF when visual
2)
departure : FD + AP OFF & AT ON. No automatics below 10,000ft.
approach: FD + AT/AP OFF below 15,000ft
3)
on departure I leave AT in for accurate N1 selection. Often I find myself having to level off because of track restrictions. Leaving AT in and using the N1 switch (737) allows for easy disconnecting and reconnecting after subsequent climb clearance has been received.
on approach I prefer to have all automatics and FD's off. By default I ask for a visual approach except for certain destinations where I know it will not be possible. In that case it is either raw data ILS or NPA.
This is all with consideration for the weather in mind. But I would say the majority of my personal flying is manual.
What is your perception on manual flight and what are the rules in your company?
Best regards!
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,204
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From: Seattle
Autopilot and flight director use (744) is required for procedures requiring RNP2 or less (US SIDs and STARs, RNAV approaches). Otherwise it is at the Captain's discretion. All sim training emphasizes the use of autoflight, to the extent that many new FOs cannot easily revert to manual flight when the automatics get into the "What's it doing now?!?" mode. I even saw one crew NOT recommended for a PC on a warmup (requiring another sim session) because the Captain did not use all the magic (including VNAV) for a 2-engine visual approach -- even though he flew a perfectly acceptable manual approach.
Unfortunately, policies and procedures are being dictated by pilots who have little experience in the airplane and/or who don't understand the necessity of building good stick-and-rudder skills beyond the FMS. Then they wonder why so few pilots bid over to the 747 Classic fleet...
Unfortunately, policies and procedures are being dictated by pilots who have little experience in the airplane and/or who don't understand the necessity of building good stick-and-rudder skills beyond the FMS. Then they wonder why so few pilots bid over to the 747 Classic fleet...
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,021
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From: Glorious West Sussex
approach: FD + AT/AP OFF below 15,000ft
If your company SOP is AP on for those NADP's can you justify why you choose to disregard the rules?
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: US
0) DC-9, A310, B-727/737/757/767
1) As required for workload management. F/D + A/T for departure. Approach required below 200/.5.
2) A/P typically on between 5,000-20,000'...or sooner if I've had enough. Sometimes sooner if terrain, weather, or departure procedures create a higher workload (see point #1).
Cruise? No. Or handfly to TOC? No. It's a waste of time in my opinion to hand fly that long. I used to talk about the need to practice hand flying with my hands off the yoke(to demonstrate my point). With the a/c trimmed to 'on speed', while using slight rudder pressure to control roll, you can 'hand fly' for thousands of feet while never touching the yoke.
On arrival A/P typically comes off between 5,000'-10,000' for VFR arrivals. Typically hand fly approaches with weather greater than 300' and 2 miles vis.
A/T's can stay on as long as they behave. If it's bumpy, or gusty, they're off(power up, power back, power up, power back...
how about bracketing the power required??? Oops, that requires a pilot) 
1) As required for workload management. F/D + A/T for departure. Approach required below 200/.5.
2) A/P typically on between 5,000-20,000'...or sooner if I've had enough. Sometimes sooner if terrain, weather, or departure procedures create a higher workload (see point #1).
Cruise? No. Or handfly to TOC? No. It's a waste of time in my opinion to hand fly that long. I used to talk about the need to practice hand flying with my hands off the yoke(to demonstrate my point). With the a/c trimmed to 'on speed', while using slight rudder pressure to control roll, you can 'hand fly' for thousands of feet while never touching the yoke.
On arrival A/P typically comes off between 5,000'-10,000' for VFR arrivals. Typically hand fly approaches with weather greater than 300' and 2 miles vis.
A/T's can stay on as long as they behave. If it's bumpy, or gusty, they're off(power up, power back, power up, power back...
how about bracketing the power required??? Oops, that requires a pilot)
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Kalifornia
I think Intruder and I must fly for the same airline.
It always comes back to the money. I wish that the new "1500 law" included a provision to grant 4 hours of sim time every six months to be used solely at the pilot's discretion. All we have now is a bunch of BS talk!
I take every opportunity possible to hand fly, and I am grateful to the Captains that allow it.
It always comes back to the money. I wish that the new "1500 law" included a provision to grant 4 hours of sim time every six months to be used solely at the pilot's discretion. All we have now is a bunch of BS talk!
I take every opportunity possible to hand fly, and I am grateful to the Captains that allow it.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 356
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From: UK
In my company FD must always be used unless cleared for a visual approach with no descent restriction.
The EMB145 doesn't have autothrottle so always manual thrust.
On take off normal practice is AP on at 1000ft AGL
Personal preference is to hand fly to TOC when weather nice and clear, smooth and workload fairly low. In reality that is about one in 15 sectors.
I've handflown 2 complete sectors by choice in 4 years.
I never handfly in the sim unless the AP is u/s!
On approach company states AP use dictated by conditions and workload imposed on other pilot, ie, busy RT while dodging CBs into LHR not a good time to handfly. AP off by DH.
Generally folks disconnect AP at about 2 to 3 miles, between 500 and 1000ft agl once stabilised. Earlier if gusty, perhaps later if very smooth and AP doing a good job.
I once did a raw data (FD off) visual approach on a line check, and while it went well I'd never do it again, too big a risk of digging yourself a hole compared with AP on ILS. Line trainer said he's never seen anyone do a visual on check before!
The EMB145 doesn't have autothrottle so always manual thrust.
On take off normal practice is AP on at 1000ft AGL
Personal preference is to hand fly to TOC when weather nice and clear, smooth and workload fairly low. In reality that is about one in 15 sectors.
I've handflown 2 complete sectors by choice in 4 years.
I never handfly in the sim unless the AP is u/s!
On approach company states AP use dictated by conditions and workload imposed on other pilot, ie, busy RT while dodging CBs into LHR not a good time to handfly. AP off by DH.
Generally folks disconnect AP at about 2 to 3 miles, between 500 and 1000ft agl once stabilised. Earlier if gusty, perhaps later if very smooth and AP doing a good job.
I once did a raw data (FD off) visual approach on a line check, and while it went well I'd never do it again, too big a risk of digging yourself a hole compared with AP on ILS. Line trainer said he's never seen anyone do a visual on check before!
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: NE of LON VOR
A340-600, ex-A330-200/300, ex-A320/A319.
My airline encourages autoflight from climb-1 to DH. However, the keyword there is "encourages".
For me, I am a very hands on pilot when handling the takeoff/landing legs. I rarely use autopilot/autothrottle below 10,000' unless I have high workload. I am surprised at a lot of young pilots nowadays who can't climb to an altitude and level off without the aid of FD/Autopilot. One of my first officers levelled off at 8000' manually but couldn't hold the altitude within +/-100ft. Disgraceful.
A lot of people on here said that a majority of commercial pilots would have been able to land on the Hudson back in January 2009. I very much doubt that. They would have engaged the autopilot and flew the entire descent down automatically.
My airline encourages autoflight from climb-1 to DH. However, the keyword there is "encourages".
For me, I am a very hands on pilot when handling the takeoff/landing legs. I rarely use autopilot/autothrottle below 10,000' unless I have high workload. I am surprised at a lot of young pilots nowadays who can't climb to an altitude and level off without the aid of FD/Autopilot. One of my first officers levelled off at 8000' manually but couldn't hold the altitude within +/-100ft. Disgraceful.
A lot of people on here said that a majority of commercial pilots would have been able to land on the Hudson back in January 2009. I very much doubt that. They would have engaged the autopilot and flew the entire descent down automatically.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Euroland
Some quite interesting comments.
No mention of the impact omn the PNF of "flying all the way to cruise level"
No mention of RVSM either.
Where is this happening because if someone finds a nice quiet place and hand flies to 10,000 then that is nice but as someone else said once established in a long climb in a straight line what is the problem (unless you can't trim) - those with autotrim not included!!
For arrival in my experience there are the busy TMA's where maximum crew capacity is best and the very quiet places - with almost zero atc where again maximum crew capacity is best.
So yes great idea to hand-fly the ils when established but one has to ask - in the situations where you can handfly without overloading the pnf/pm, and it is not in a straight line to a much higher level then fill your boots (for those few seconds)
Want to keep current with handflying then find a piper cub and a windy day!!
No mention of the impact omn the PNF of "flying all the way to cruise level"
No mention of RVSM either.
Where is this happening because if someone finds a nice quiet place and hand flies to 10,000 then that is nice but as someone else said once established in a long climb in a straight line what is the problem (unless you can't trim) - those with autotrim not included!!
For arrival in my experience there are the busy TMA's where maximum crew capacity is best and the very quiet places - with almost zero atc where again maximum crew capacity is best.
So yes great idea to hand-fly the ils when established but one has to ask - in the situations where you can handfly without overloading the pnf/pm, and it is not in a straight line to a much higher level then fill your boots (for those few seconds)
Want to keep current with handflying then find a piper cub and a windy day!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: World
Thanks for the responses so far. As I expected the opinions vary, which is a good thing! However I'd like to emphasize using automatics does not guarantee more safety. As was recently shown by Turkish Airlines in Amsterdam. I also notice regional differences. Especially the English and German companies tend to be very AFDS/VNAV reliant, wheras my experiences in Belgian and Italian companies are completely to the contrary.
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: England
DFC, if you rarely hand fly, then you'll get the shock of your life when your entire AFDS breaks!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 113
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From: UK
I rarely use autopilot/autothrottle below 10,000' unless I have high workload
A lot of people on here said that a majority of commercial pilots would have been able to land on the Hudson back in January 2009. I very much doubt that. They would have engaged the autopilot and flew the entire descent down automatically.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
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From: Arizona USA
What is your perception on manual flight and what are the rules in your company?
Manual flying with/without the flight director/autothrust is completely at the descretion of the flying pilot, regardless of weather and destination, with the exception of CAT II/III.
IE: if pilots can't fly the airplane, they don't get hired.
Period.
Hand flying seriously degrades flight safety however proficient you are and that is why it's not encouraged.
Psychophysiological entity
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Walton on the Naze Essex.
Hand flying seriously degrades flight safety however proficient you are and that is why it's not encouraged.
Joined: Nov 2008
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From: Country Victoria, Australia
.... if you rarely hand fly, then you'll get the shock of your life when your entire AFDS breaks!
Curiously, the pilots I've flown with who are most keen to do things manually, have the least awareness of what is happening around them, often pretty poor ability to fly the a/c via the automatics, and most curiously of all, the worst manual flying skills.
As for the reliability of the aids. I've seen a couple of autopilots fail on Boeings, but in every case, another was able to be engaged. Autothrottles die every now and then. I've never seen the F/D fail in 16,000 hours of flying Boeing, but it only took about 300 to see it happen on an Airbus.
Fleet Manager
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: various places .....
Airlines adapt their recurrent training to cover the most likely scenarios in the limited time available in the sim.
Granted, but some of us don't necessarily concur with the assessments as done. Having said that, the statistics ought to cover the bulk of the work (and the Regulator has a significant say) with the caveat that some time should be available for crews to extend themselves and maintain/develop skills
I've only ever had to operate 2 sectors on the 737 without the AP and we still had the FD and AT.
If that's an acceptable argument, then why do we similarly "waste" time with training for engine failures, given that modern engines are very reliable as well ?
you're kidding yourself if you think that hand flying enhances safety because the opposite is true.
Perhaps you might cite some objective evidence to support such a wide-sweeping statement. Certainly, in some circumstances we would all acknowledge that it makes more sense to drive with the automatics on. However that doesn't cover all bases ....
Granted, but some of us don't necessarily concur with the assessments as done. Having said that, the statistics ought to cover the bulk of the work (and the Regulator has a significant say) with the caveat that some time should be available for crews to extend themselves and maintain/develop skills
I've only ever had to operate 2 sectors on the 737 without the AP and we still had the FD and AT.
If that's an acceptable argument, then why do we similarly "waste" time with training for engine failures, given that modern engines are very reliable as well ?
you're kidding yourself if you think that hand flying enhances safety because the opposite is true.
Perhaps you might cite some objective evidence to support such a wide-sweeping statement. Certainly, in some circumstances we would all acknowledge that it makes more sense to drive with the automatics on. However that doesn't cover all bases ....
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,563
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From: I wouldn't know.
One of the bigger german airlines, boeing fleet, the manual states
Of course it has to be briefed and weather and traffic situation should be taken into consideration. However hand flying with or without flight director is pretty common, mostly during approaches and for some time after departure, a few elect to do it until cruising altitude. Of course learning and using all available AFDS modes is important as well, especially in a fleet with quite a few equipment differences (IAN, GLS, Fail Operational).
SIM training puts some emphasis on it as well with either visual circuits or raw data OEI in gusty conditions and wind at the crosswind limit as well as some raw data airwork.
Continuous use of automatic systems leads to loss of basic knowledge of power settings/pitch attitudes and reduces the ability to fly accurately with a low workload. Pilots should therefore regularly fly the aircraft manually, with emphasis on manual departures/ approaches with and without the flight director.
SIM training puts some emphasis on it as well with either visual circuits or raw data OEI in gusty conditions and wind at the crosswind limit as well as some raw data airwork.