LH A320 Rough Landing @ Hamburg
 

http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/uf/view.fil...=phpOltUWB.jpg


Must have been real windy!

Is that... real?

EDIT:

Taking a second look...

Shouldn't the turning spoilers, or, at least the ailerons, show some attempt to prevent that from happening? And the elevator, doesn't look like there is any up force being applied...

It does look fake... although I might be wrong.

WOW .. haven't seen an engine that close to the ground yet, anybody knows how it ended up ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaVx3JOsfJw

Think this a video of said incident...

Frightening conditions! Looked like maybe kicked off drift a fraction early and allowed upwind wing to react to (yet another) big gust...

Anyone what happened after the go-around?

If that was today the TAF read something along the lines of TEMPO 250/25G45 TEMPO 250/35G60.

Video looks like final flare was about the intersection of 15/33, where there is potential for a blast of wind!

Can any Airbus drivers post the crosswind limitations on this type?

T/O 29 kts gusting 38 kts
Ldg: 33 kts gusting 38 kts

for non-contaminated runways - goes down for flooded runways, snow, ice etc.

Anybody knows what runway were they using for landing???


Dvd

I am not an A320 pilot, but wonder if one could answer. I was given to understand, by a colleague with experience of airbus, that it is not expected that you remove (all) drift before touchdown in strong x-winds, as the side stick is set up such that any input you make, to counteract yaw induced roll, generates a given roll rate, as opposed to merely being an input to counter the yaw induced roll from kicking off any drift. Not sure if I expressed that very well, but the upshot is that the airbus can be "quite demanding" to land in strong, gusty, x-winds.

Not seen the pics but the main thing is that everyones ok

Wind from the right 290/!! looks like rwy23 to me.
Other choice would be Rwy 33 but without a really big improvement and I am not sure if RWY33 has a ILS

Well with the wind stated above for rwy 23, it looks to me that it was over the crosswind limit.

Truly amazing video.
I heard crosswind landings are tricky in the Airbus.Perhaps an Airbus pilot can comment further?
How many pilots have a crosswind chart to hand?This is one of those situations when you cant just guess the component.
Nevertheless,the pilot reacted well after the gust caught him after the touchdown(or bounce).
Right main gear should have touched first with right wing down.Looks like the opposite occurred.Also he was chasing his track throughout and was always left.Also,looks like he committed the cardinal sin and relaxed after the touchdown.Stopped flying the plane.Momentarily.However,he recovered and pulled up.
A good CP would probably put them both in the sim until they get the technique right and make sure they both have a crosswind chart.If you're outside the limits,you cant continue...pilots always try and get in.Its a natural instinct which we have to fight.

Landings and airbuses...always been a bit of a discussion...

I have quite a bit of experience on the airbus and as far as airbuses and landings goes - You land it like you land ANY conventional aircraft! No brain surgery to it and no reason to re-invent flying.

The landing on this picture....wow, I thought my landing this evening was bad! :}

Happy landings folks!

CP

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185

Good grief!

So how many weeks do you reckon it will take to come down off the adrenaline high?

Bet it was verrrry quiet in the cabin on the next approach.

Anyone know if they switched runway or tried the same one again?

Dont mind the switching of runways, maybe a switch in AIRPORT!!

a bit of facts:
wind was 290/33 gusts to 49 (time ~ 13:55)
happened on flight LH 044 (D-AIQP) a A320 from MUC
runway for landing 23 LOC-DME (ATIS gave no other option)
after g/a, pilots elected runway 33 also LOC-DME approach and landed safely but minus the left winglet...
immediately after the incident ATIS gave runway 23 and 33 as well

was a hell of a storm today, rocky landings all day round...
KLM refused to depart on 23 in that conditions and preferred to wait for 40 minutes for t/o rwy 33
Emirates A345 tried once 23, 15 minutes later 33, but broke off each time, exceeded bank angles on final, diverted to FRA
other widebody ground service was unable to lift up catering boxes due to windforce...all because of emma.

OK, in this business it doesn't take much to get caught out,
we must at all times as aviation professionals keep on our guard right up until engine shutdown,

BUT the question needs to be asked..
When is a crosswind limitation NOT a crosswind limitation?

GET-HOME-"EYE"-TUS seems to be such a TABOO in this industry..

Glad to see nobody killed during this incident

HighLow

CaptainProp, sure don't agree with you...
, yes Sir, as long as you get The steady crosswind :zzz:

Flying in blustery weather the bus is a scary beast, either you let itself to sort it out (good luck!) or your try and give some correcting inputs. Then, depending on the concerted decision of at least 3 computers you might get some form of control from your sidestick inputs... or not :ouch:

Thanks Airbus, you really gave us a fantastic machine :cool:


live 2 fly 2 live

readywhenreaching thanks for your facts.
Well, it could be about time that we learn and make requests to ATC when needed. ATIS is, as the name suggests, an Information service. If you need another runway tell ATC in no uncertain terms, divert or declare an emergency.


live 2 fly 2 live

The AB flies NPA's (not LOC NPA's) like an ILS, but to a higher minimum. Some pilots were doing RNAV (GPS) approaches onto RWY 33 (the best runway at the time with that wind). So it would have made little difference if it had been an ILS or GPS approach as the visibility was good, but yes, an ILS is always better if the wind agrees.

Big question is did the pilots make a request only to have it denied?
If they didn't request 33 why not?
If the request was denied what to do then? For what reason was it denied?
Was it denied for the convenience of ATC?
If it was, what do we start doing about this? Just take what they give us? Demand what we need?
Be willing to divert/cancel, fellows. It's the only way we can uphold safety and get our point across.
OPERATIONAL NECESSITY!!! Nothing less will do! RF

I was flying 4 legs today, with gusts up to 50kts, W/S and +RASH all together, it was not a nice day to work, I tell you. ATC were quite on the edge as well but allways very helpfull.

Luckily to have direct flight controls (BA46RJ) but quite demanding using full deflection on ailerons and rudder, bumpy ride .. keep:cool:

Our cabin crew reported scary pax :eek:, if you would tell the pax before what they can expect, they wouldn’t fly, i tell you!



Waiting for the next strom to move across

Wating for the next storm to move across

Airbus haters, please take a look at the dynamics of it and tell me if this was a design flaw, or another attempt to be a test pilot. The aircraft did exactly what was asked of it. It tried to turn toward the direction of travel when the left main touched down. That caused a roll to the left which was exascerbated by the strong (i.e. outside design limits) crosswind. And there was no "decision" to go around. It was forced upon them once they were on the downwind side of the runway.

Imminent Boner
 

I totally agree. As a former Boeing man the first on limits Xwind landing on a 320 at LHR scared me. The training I had on the sim was just that - training on the sim. I had full sidestick and the wing just kept on coming up. In the end I released some rudder (in panic. I might add, whilst trying to just fly the plane) and landed with a considerable amount of drift on.

Because of this experience I made some considerable noise in the office (British Airways) and was given the advice that I 'probably just wasn't applying the correct techniques'. In other words - just go away.

Fortunately I mentioned this experience of mine to a 320 'old hand' who advised that the rubbish taught in the sim is just that - the drift has to be taken off earlier in the 320 so as to give the 'bus' some small time to rethink.

I am certainly no expert, but I listened to that 'old hand' and his techniques seemed to work; or perhaps I never saw those particular wind conditions again.

Back on the Boeing when you move the ailerons the wing reacts as expected - always. If it didn't then TOGA is the answer. TOGA should have been the answer that day at LHR on the Bus I'm sure now - trouble is I believed the Airbus hype and BA training.

When I look at that video I have to say "there but for the grace etc, etc".



Regards
Exeng

Not a a/c driver but I was handling a boat today and, although well experienced, bumped a neighbouring boat when de-berthing in a strong cross-wind. Absolute respect for you guys who have to fly your a/c full of passengers in really testing conditions. Thx.

Listening to that and watching that vid a dozen times, does make me think that landing an AB in those conditions, seems to be a bit of a lottery... either you do kick-off drift and CAN get some sort of normal aileron law to keep the upwind wing down, or you don't and risk colossal side-strain on the landing gear or running too quickly towards the upwind edge of the runway.
The latter of those being exacerbated by the uncertainty of aircraft position after touchdown - in those conditions.

Obvious Qu. Why don't AB just offer a normal aileron law for heavy crosswind landings...

Obvious Ans. Because they don't want to suddenly allow a switch in aircraft characteristics, you would have to get used to the change pretty quickly, and its a rare situation that demands it, unless used routinely for approcah and landing.

However: IMHO, roll-rate law near the ground is 'non-ideal' in those conditions, esp. if you require to cross the controls at times like that - which I think he/she did, or should have.

On one of my first line trips in the 320 I hit the stops on the stick in strong gusty crosswind. Having flown large Boeings for most of my career this was an eye opener as the stops were never a player in some serious crosswinds challenges on the conventionally configured airplanes= stick/yoke displacement = aileron displacement. I did not find the AB roll rate algorithm intuitive to adapt to. On this flight, I announced "full left sidestick" to my F/O and we touched down in a manner resembling tossing a pillow case full of doorknobs onto the runway. After we exited he said that hitting the stops was common occurrence on the bus in strong crosswinds. I said I had just spent 6 weeks in training and at no point did anyone in the schoolhouse find it somewhat needful to convey that you might hit the stops.

The bus is a bit like tail wheel airplane. Great on a calm or wind down the runway day, but a handful in strong x-winds.

Kick that much rudder,you are surely going to drop a wing.

Mmm, yes, did seem to give it a fair old bootfull, but seems theres confusion above as to whether a moment too early or for an AB, too late...

Why do you think that is so common... never being told the bad news when it could help prepare for the unexpected. Mmm.... is this the KISS syndrome being used inappropriately, or 'learning on the job' taken to ridiculous lengths?

Hitting the stops is a bad thing and a sure sign you are over controlling. It shouldn't and needn't be common in a x-wind approach. The best thing to do when you are hitting the stops is release the stick for a second then return to flying it with a normal control level. It makes no difference to the flight path as when you are bouncing from one stop to the other all you are doing is exercising the stick, the aircraft can't react that fast!

Hand Solo

So you're saying the guy should have let go of the stick for a second and the AB would have fixed the landing?? I know i'm exagerating......but if you really believe this, then continue solo, please.

But i'm in with some other guys. Most pilots who have been on a B then moved to AB know that the latter are tricky in x-winds, i presume that the company knows aswell. If only the roll-demand would fade out, just as the pitch demand, it would be much handier and more predictable, almost like an aircraft.
But pride prevails, just as with the fixed throttle.

A Pilot's perspective.

10/10 for Airbus because a bit of competition is always a good thing. By keeping Boeing on their toes the aviation world can now benefit from the development of the 777, 747-8, and 787.

As far as the Airbus product goes,

RUBBISH.

My only question is; how come if you have a 38kts gust limitation on A320 you are still performing a landing in a 45-60 gusts?
Any 320 driver comment?

@Skydrol Leak

38kts is not a limitation, its only a demonstrated crosswind back from the
old days of flight testing that beast for certification.

If you are Chuck Yeager and think you can handle it with 60, no problem.
There is NO official limitation for crosswind (except for Autoland approaches)

Errr no, I'm not saying that at all. Can you see anywhere in my post where I mention this particular flight, or landing in general?

Have you actually flown an A320?

If the aircraft x-wind limit is 33-g38 kts, does that assume the landing gear can absorb a landing with full drift on a dry runway?? Can the tyres cope with that sort of side loads on a 320?

CAT 111 Dual.

Wrong. Fundamentally. The crosswind limit is is exactly as stated previously in this thread. It is defined as the crosswind at which no pilot input is required in yaw until the nosewheel is down in a normal landing (same for any commercial jet). Yes you can land with more of a crosswind if you are a good pilot but you are exceeding the certified limit and will be hung in any aaib investigation that arises.

Those of you that state that the airbus is fundamentally flawed either by experience or from what a friend said are imho talking bo//ox or rubbish pilots. I have 4000+ hours A320 family and am happy to land to the appropriate limitations. I also have 700 hours Boeing widebody and find it a joy to fly.

Either learn how to fly it properly and learn the appropriate limitations or quit whinging.