Strange Habits of Your Captains
 

Thought this would run nicely alongside "Strange habits of your co-pilots".
Cause to be fair, we're not the only people who do daft things.:=
Care to comment...:ok:

No thank you. Your job (especially at the ripe age of 21) is to sit there, shut up, adapt to different techniques, and start learning the job, and not criticise the people who have to work with you, worthless that you are. You will meet many different types of people, all of whom have shown they are fit to command an airliner. A few hundred hours do not make you an ace. You have no basis yet on which to make judgements of people, so temper your derision and criticism until you know more!

Enjoyed that Rainboe!! Not far off the mark.

But there are the odd dodgy captains around, and it is behoven of the young 'uns to keep a bloody close eye. Their issue is when to say or do something. Getting that right is also a big part of the learning curve.

Bet you didn't stay quiet all the way to your command, pal!:)

"Your job (especially at the ripe age of 21) is to sit there, shut up..."

interesting crm, especially if the other chap has made a mistake... :oh::suspect:

Couldn't of asked for a better reply....well theres one stupid thing already that a captain (i assume) has done.

"Your job (especially at the ripe age of 21) is to sit there, shut up"
"You have no basis yet on which to make judgements of people"

Dont really need to reply to that comment...but i will. Although i have youth on my side being 21 i still have 3 years commercial jet experiance with 2 jet types and 5 years total flying. I'm fully aware this is not 30 years flying experience, but it still gives me the grounding to be able to identify good/efficient ways to operate an aircraft and not such good examples.

You should appriciate that not every co-pilot flys for a large airline, where the captains that you fly with have a wealth of experience. Like yourself!
In my previous airline, if i stayed there i would be undertaking command training as we speak on a jet aircraft. So would it be my job to sit there and shut up??? And just because I would be a captain..does that mean i wouldn't do silly things?

"adapt to different techniques"

This is exactly the reason why this topic is valid. Being a co-pilot we continually have to vary the way we operate in order to fit round the captains masterplan. It is these different techniques that that we have to operate around, that we can find questionable methods....Not necessarily wrong but sometimes silly...and we can talk about them on this forum...to the benefit of everyone.

"A few hundred hours do not make you an ace"

True.....neither does 2300hours with 2100 jet...which i have.

Thought i just finish my post with an immature twist...just like yours.:}

randomair

Take a quick look at Rainboe's signature, and his final !.

What he is saying (if I interpret correctly between the lines), is, be ever alert to the operation, be prepared to speak up unequivocabley whenever and every time when you are outside your comfort zone - and sooner rather than later, so that you can reassured and/or your views properly assessed at a more leisurely time rather than late in the approach, when other factors kick in.

As a low-hours pilot, your views will be welcomed, but sometimes you will find them discounted - expect this. Unless you think you are about to die, the best time to discuss your concerns sometimes is on the ground after the flight over a beer [but not before the next flight in 30 minutes:)]. In this environment the matters can be discussed leisurely with nothing else going on and the discussion will be more fruitful.

Everyone can get a 'reputation', some good, some bad. For an FO the 'crying wolf' reputation is not a good one to have, 'cos sometimes then legitimate and valid concerns will be automatically disregarded. This is why I say speak up when you are outside your comfort zone, and not to say 'I have control' when a someone is 1/2 a dot high and 10 kts fast on the ILS to a 3500m runway! The same viewpoint is valid to a wet 1700m runway at 1 nm final (the facts at least if not the taking control ie call for a go-around).

The only thing worse than a 20,000 hour captain with 40 years of experience who is arrogant is an arrogant 2,300 hour pilot with 5 years of experience. :hmm:

Hey randomair,

Are you random in the air?

;)

Sorry...couldn't resist.

:ok:

No i'm just consistently bad. :eek:

Con Pilot, that was good, and no doubt true. Even i had to laugh.

Just having a balanced debate thats all.

randomair

Thanks- some people have seen the point! You must adapt yourself, young man, to different characters in the left hand seat, and take time to learn to work effectively with them, because one day, you are going to be in that seat and you will have to work with all sorts of weirdos in the right hand seat. Does it surprise you to learn that far more evils take place in the rhs than ever the lhs? It comes as a complete shock to learn that not all [word self-censored] are in the left seat only! You have, ass a Captain, to find a way of working effectively with whatever you are given in the rhs, be it 'difficult', incompetent, slow, ignorant, arrogant, whatever. So have patience with the guy in charge, because he's the one carrying the can and ultimately responsible. The least you can do is not belittle him! You're going to want that respect one day.

thanks point taken, i fully understand that.

All i was creating was a topic to sit side by side "Strange habits of your co-pilots." basically a sign that i've got too much time on my hands...

randomair

I flew with a guy once who had a habit (at 3am in the morning) of setting his Egg timer to go off. Which used to scare the living sh#t out of me..because the bloody thing sounded EXACTLY like the fire bell :uhoh:
Another "interesting" fellow used to eat his food all the way down from TOD to getting the geardown when he was PF..and still did a better job than I will ever do:8

In over thirty five years as a heavy jet Commander, I had only one co-pilot complain to management.

The result?

This turkey was demoted to a lower fleet, as the respective heavy jet fleet manager couldn't stand him , either.
And, he stayed there for 5 more years.:E

I have flown with egg-timer man. My version has a little ritual where he unpacks an eggtimer and a little flipper thing, to be placed on the centre console. The eggtimer is used to check on the cabin crew ie that they contact him every 20mins. The flipper is a little private joke (only flip it over in case of emergency).
I didn't mention the baseball cap with the obscene slogan on.
On tours with this geezer I was careful to stick rigidly to SOPs and be clear to stick to the party line for the benefit of the voice track. I have a mortgage to pay.
I provided my own sandwiches on tours with our hero; such was his antagonism of the cabin crew, I was bathed in their derision and could not risk a 'special marinade' on the beef.

F/O's quickly come to learn that almost all captains do things differently, and are oft heard to lament, "if only they'd all do it the same way".

Then, when they move to the left hand seat, if they're observant, they realise that all the F/Os do it differently too! :8

Every day, I look across to the left hand pilot's seat - and there is no-one there.
And I sometimes talk to myself - is that a strange habit?

Sometimes I'm a rebel, too. I start the "odd" engine on an "even" day. That'll show em, hehehe. :E

Still remember the first day out of supervision, proud to have 150 hours 737 under my belt. Flew with an old geezer a sector to barcelona, he was flying, manually of course the whole time without any automation on. In the descent i noticed the aircraft leaving the intendet track, called it out two times, looked over to find my handflying old captain thoroughly asleep ;)

Of course i let him sleep and just flew the damn thing myself until he woke up 20 minutes later.

12 hours later after our duty we had a couple beers and talked it over, end result was i never learned as much as from that chap, especially in regards to flying without all that automatic stuff.

Nowadays i enjoy all the different ways of doing the right thing, the small techniques and all i can learn from it, be it a good or a bad example. The only times im really scared is when i have to fly as a safety on the jump seat with new hires. And every time i have to ask myself: was i really that bad myself back then?

Hey you know what, it really is a shame to see people bashing each other over what seat they sit in, or what experience they have or haven't had. Makes me think that the "bad old days" unfortunately haven't quite disappeared for a few people. In my own experience (sitting in both seats) i tend to find that those who are particularly overbearing or those who are arogant in any way, tend to use this as some kind of veil to hide the fact that they lack some confidence and/or ability when it comes to doing the job. Thankfully these people are in an ever decreasing minority, and most of the people i get to fly with are an excellent bunch. Lets face it, flying is a job, the sooner people realise this, leave there ego's at home, and just try to enjoy a good day out, the better. The whole operation runs a lot smoother and safer that way.

From personal experience I remember when a Captain: had to make a go-around on short final because he was high and hot (VMC); wouldn't call "Gear Down" although I'd repeated numerous times "Standing by Gear"; I took immediate control of the a/c because it was apparent (to me) that he was going to land on top of a building approaching MDW (3:00 in the morning)- "apparent" as neither one of us ever confirmed the incident; and he got lost on climb out resulting in non-happy responses from ATC.
There we go, 4 things that I recall. Could have been some others.
From personal experience I remember when a co-pilot: well, I could write a book on this one.
Oh yeh, I remember on occassion a stewardess, oppps, sorry, flight attendant, on occassion would say, "My job's just as important as yours."

I flew with a captain once that didn't have any strange habits! :8

I thought that was strange! :E

BH

Hay Rainboe,

Some people sit in the left seat for years wondering how on earth they ended up with such idiots on their right. When they reach the age where they must return to the right seat, they look left and see why.

Regards,

DFC

This little girl has just about been bowled over by all the testosterone (or Rainboe, should that be Testosterone? ;)) in this thread! I think I may be growing testicles as we speak.

Good call DFC.

Same here Shy Torque and I'm beginning to think it might be for the best :ok:

Please, PLEASE assure me that this, er, "Person of High Status" is the exception rather then the rule.

Kiwi Chick

Well, some would say (not I!) that you girlies have broken into a man's world, so I suppose you had better be prepared for the consequences!

Have you noticed in the morning your face is growing bristles, and maybe a shave might be a good idea? I am appalled when I see a crusty old Capitano (like myself) and a young, attractive lady copilot walking along, and the Captain is carrying the copilot's briefcase! In fact I am downright aghast. If you ladies are breaking into a man's world, and have the ability to do so, why on Earth would you need your briefcase carried for you? See? You can carry your own briefcase, and you can do it better than any man, right?Unless of course all that shaving gear was rather heavy.

So rather than any weird thoughts when the Captain is looked at by the copilot, I would rather when the copilot looked at me, he (in a non-gender manner) was thinking "what have I forgotten, should I get some weather, and the Boss has forgotten this......how can I gently remind him so it appears it was me that forgot?" Trouble with copilots these days is there is no finesse or gentle discretion anymore (not like I had).

Why has all this stuff to be discussed in the "Tech Log" ?

Obviously it doesn't have to be .. however, so long as it is reasonably polite, pertinent .. and occasionally touches on technical matters, it is a useful subject and might just as well be discussed here as elsewhere ...

I too have sat in the right hand seat for many a year, glanced across at the LHS to see either nobody there or a young fella me lad who wanted my job :* I operated in extreme weathers, in and out of tight sites etc...

Then, after many, many years of beating the air into submission I fancied the easy life that is piloting an airliner around. Rocket science it aint.

So now I find myself, in the words of the Toxic Rainboe, having no experience, nothing to add to the conversation and no skills to bring to the party. Ummm maybe not. I realise that he/she in the LHS that carries the can and signs on the dotted line but as long as my ass is in that aeroplane I will make sure that my views and my experience are taken into account. I do that with humour, forethought, suggestion and assertiveness when required.

Not all co-pilots are 21 and some have a whole lot more command hours than the guy/gal in the other seat, alot of the time in aircraft operated within far more extreme environments. Life circumstances and the need for a change of scene puts many people there. I like it and I get on well with just about everybody I fly with.

Always keep an open mind, the cross cockpit gradient has been known to go the other way before.

:E

W2P

What 'vitriol' are some of you talking about? It's not me that wrote:
I don't happen to have that attitude, and I don't talk like that! I was rhs for nearly 19 years before my turn came up, and I do make a proper working atmosphere with no overtones, unlike some, in both seats, I have flown with! Any vitriol in this thread was reserved for one taking cheap scoring points for a minor typographical error. But this thread damages working relationships encouraging copilots to drag up awful or embarrassing stories. Unless there is respect on the FD for the Captain, whatever the rhs thinks, you do not have a safe environment, and 500mph is no time to start discussing it.

This illustrates what I mean:
- can this mean "I'm taking away some of that authority, but I don't have to sign on the dotted line!"?
Views by all means 'taken into account', but not overriding- as long as we remember there is ONE boss. A crew is not a 'partnership'. Sometimes I think CRM dangles almost over the edge of a proper safe operation by almost encouraging any blockheadedness and obstructionism to be forcibly 'taken into account'!

Rainboe,

We all make mistakes, I have made some as 'Captain' and have had them pointed out by my colleague before they became a safety risk. Thanks were in order and a debrief and review of my own performance. Not a problem in any way, just a good way of improving my own performance.

If you think you are a 'flying god' due to passing some airlines command course then good luck. They train/convert Captains based on commercial need, not necessarily skill/personality/capability or in your case lack of.

We are all now commercial entities, nothing more nothing less. When you hit the minimum requirements then they will feed you through the command minching machine and out you pop, as Rainboe, an all knowing, dismissive, bitter entity.

Cheers

W2P

go around because the FO didn't ask for the gear?
 

i thought as captains, we were to lead a bit.

if he didn't ask for the gear, i would give it.

and if he/she were too high and fast, i would have slowed him/her down early enough to get it down the first time.

hell, i carry cabin crew's bags when i like.

Folks,

While the thread stays half reasonable .. it stays .. if not ... it gets locked and disappears into the depths of history ... please keep the chest beating for R&N and like appropriate forum vehicles ...

regards,

John

chest beating?
 

if my post was viewed as chest beating--

excuse me----

stator vane ... had your post so qualified it would no longer be visible .. ergo, it is a fine post ... apologies if I offended.

Enuff
now I've got to put my 2 penn'orth in. (Not a typo, I'm old enough to remember proper money).
The most bizarre behaviour I've ever seen from the LHS when, after fortunes plunged following yet another aviation damaging event generated from the sand pit, I was returned, temporarily, to the RHS and being Mr Chameleon again, whilst other, older longer serving colleagues stayed in situ.:ugh:
One guy had so much personal baggage he lost the plot completely and I had to take over command, from the RHS. He later took extended leave to get himself back together. Another wanted to complete an ILS with full fly down and fly right indications, in IMC. He needed two calls to Go Around and only just beat me to the TOGA triggers. By then I'd given up talking for a bit and wanted some positive action. Yet another refused to include me in any form of decision making whatsoever. That was a fun day out. Another took control at 50 feet on landing onto one of those mega large runways they have in Germany as the wind had gone outside of "First Officers Limits".:mad::ok:
In contrast, the newbies in the RHS are well trained, good fun and willing to learn. They pose far fewer surprises than us old codgers and most of their problems, being based on lack of experience, normally reasonably predictable.....
Enjoy, as they say.:ok:

Here it comes- exactly what I feared- a raft of stories about how handsome, debonair, ace, steely jawed copilots saved the death megajet from instant destruction because the 'old codger had a temporary self lobotomy'.

May I remind people this is an open forum, not a private place for aviators to swap secret stories, few of which bear any truth. Maybe many feel washing dirty linen in public is an acceptable thing to do, but by trotting out these fables and tales, it is demeaning to the Captains authority of airliners and inevitably not good for the confidence of the travelling public- hearing these tales is quite frankly abhorrent, especially when the other party is not here to answer his side of the story.

Why not just let it go? There are enough non-aviation people here who spend inordinate amounts of time here whose only interest seems to be to demean the profession and the industry. Before we know it, journos will have scoops of the latest 'aviation outrage! Incompetence!' Let's stop putting ammunition in their hands from these one sided 'disaster' stories please! They're garbage.

Well said Rainboe.

Nubboy Cant believe you posted all that stuff:=

Never taken control from anyone, no one ever took control from me and the only cases I've heard of up until now are genuine incapacitation, which are rare.

Get Over It
 

So you're a captain. You are responsible for the safe and efficient conduct of the flight. But that doesn't make you god, and it doesn't mean you are going to be automatically respected. That may have been the case 40 years ago (and yes, I was around then), but it is not now. Since the introduction of CRM, the number of crew related incidents has declined dramatically, especially when one takes into account the increase in aviation traffic over the years. F/O's are no longer afraid (at least in my airline) to speak up, as our system is completely transparent. There is a "no blame, no shame" culture now, and it has resulted in a much safer and efficient environment.
I have had the CRL experience (centre, right, left). I have seen as many stuff-ups by RHSeaters as LHSeaters. We are human=fallible. The older we get, the slower we get (but hopefully wiser), and chances are that some quick witted chap in the RHS is going to pick up an error before we do. I would rather have him say something before it becomes an issue, than to allow the holes in the cheese to line up.
One of the great levellers in the system has been the company's insistence on adherance to SOP's. There is no longer the latitude afforded us once-upon-a-time. We can no longer say "I have always done it this way, so I'll continue to...". As a S/O I used to hear that more often than not, but all those old duffers have since retired, and aviation is all the more safe for their departure.
And that leaves one variable - personality. If you always operate according to SOP's but have an arrogant attitude, guys will say "He's safe, but an ar&ehole to fly with" or "one more day away with him and I'd have killed him". Respect is no longer demanded - it is earned. Treat your RHSeaters with respect and you'll get it back. The same applies to F/O's. It is a two way street.
:}

400Rulz and Nubboy very well said, you two are the sort of captains we respect he most. Respect is to be earned.
parabellum (will I get introuble for no capital P even though you spelt it that way?)and especially Rainboe. Hope I never have to fly with either of you. I doubt any of the unfortunate (though probably laughing- I mean now as they read this post) F/Os who read this post say what they really think of you as you may well intimidate "respect" (and I use the term loosely). Grow up both of you. Rainboe, you started this thread down the path it has taken, all that was required was a sane response.
Mods, do what you will to this post. They deserved it, though, it is only my humble opinion, and nobody has ever been shot for that(maybe in their world).

well how interesting! The clue is in the 'Melbpilot...' bit. It is undoubtedly true what they say about chips- you sound very well 'balanced'! But leaving aside the personal abuse (which is genuinly funny), we are mutually concerned we don't ever fly with each other- your arrogance will be larger than you! Just stay down in the antipodes pal, and don't bring your bitterness up here.
Your post:
Yup-little power in the right hand seat OK.

It becomes clear where your chip stems from. The desperation cries out loud and clear!

In the beginning of the thread I raised the question if this forum would be the best place for it. A pprune moderator answered:

so long as it is reasonably polite.....

In the meanwhile I have the impression, that this is not the case.

If everyone talks like this chap in the Dannunda and Godzone forum, I can see why it was closed for a while. Expletives flying around like that- don't people realise once you start swearing at people, you have lost your point altogether?

Be assured that the thread is being watched closely .. with the odd deletion of naughty words and such like here and there it is just managing to stay decent.

Why not, though, avoid the invective (which doesn't reflect well on the person concerned) and discuss the tech/CRM implications of non-SOP and other idiosyncratic behaviours ? .. which is where I had hoped the thread would tread ..

For information, we go to considerable lengths to avoid locking threads unless they get altogether too silly or go right off the rails of decent discussion ... there are other places which welcome that sort of thing .. we are more interested in facilitating the discussion bits relating to tech matters ..

.. and, for any who might think that I can be offended and caused to flare up in retaliation to perception .. rest assured that I have the most enormously thick skin ... it is just a matter that the totem pole folk have dictated certain standards and we just set about trying to balance facilitation against the maintenance of prescribed matters ..

Robust argument, even if a tad heated, is fine ... we just endeavour to keep it reasonably polite and decent for a G-rated audience ..