Perhaps it should be a requirement for GA pilots to have passed their R/T test before being allowed to make a practice call? Won't eliminate all the poor R/T referred to, but might help.

Having fairly recently visited D&D (on a Sunday, good WX), I was surprised at how very very little R/T of any kind came through on 121.5.

On the same visit to West Drayton I was able to sit next to a controller who was having to juggle heavy metal around a serious CAS infringement at Stanstead. While it was ably and professionally dealt with it, so wasn't an "emergency", but a training fix or practice PAN on 121.5 might have avoided the situation entirely.

SD

I continue to be amazed by the attitude of some so-called professional pilots who claim they can't cope with the authorised correct use of the distress frequency. They complain about those who are correctly using the frequency and want things changed to their benefit - to save them forgetting to check and adjust a radio volume! Come on guys, get with it!! (Do these folk also forget to en-route check their fuel or get the next ATIS etc? :ugh: )

Rather than try to change the use of the frequency, why not change the company SOPs and/or checklists? (Remember FREDA?).

BTW, I think that's what the comment about reminding crews about the correct use of 121.5 at the end of the FODCOM was getting at.....

A practice emergency sounds a bit like being a little pregnant, doesn't it ?:E

Seriously - none of this would be necessary if the UK had a proper countrywide FIS available to VFR flights like all other countries I've ever flown in. Anywhere else you can call up xxxinfo (center, radar), request FIS / Flight Following, get a squawk and are on your way. Should you then blunder into CAS (or appear to be on your merry way doing so), you'll get a call XXXX be aware XYZ airspace is 5 miles ahead. And please don't tell me the usual 'It's too busy here', there are other places at least as busy (Southern California comes to mind), where this is not a problem at all.

121.5 should be reserved for real emergencies - only.

But it's not going to happen, so as the FODCOM says, instead of wingeing about it, we merely have to find a professional way of dealing with it.

Allocating another frequency STILL won't prevent all those mistaken transmissions from pilots who aren't in the habit of "checking their means" before transmitting and if no reply is forthcoming should think why, before making repeated calls on 121.5 (poor training, poor SOPs, or just :8 ?).

Why can't some pilots cope with a reduced volume on 121.5 for short while? Beats me!

BTW, 172driver, what you describe with regard to avoidance of airspace etc sounds exactly like a RIS rather than a FIS service.

Again I will admit that our company actively discourage via SOP to not use the other box at all when in a busy ATC environment. Turn the bloody thing off and concentrate on the order of owns own house first.

Why do we need to listen to 121.50 over places such as Europe? So you hear an aircraft in distress, are we all meant to become AWACS fighting for the chance to be hero and sort the fella out. Let the authorities sort it, and if they need a passing airliners help, they can get the sector controller to ask a pilot to listen to a discreet frequency etc. So maybe just maybe with all this "innane" chatter by amateurs is stopping 70% of airliners from listening, the other 30% will keep watch nicely. EPIRB/ELT thingies stop using 121.50 to transmit soon anyway so thats that device off the frequency. So other than a lost rookie or a crashed aircraft calling from the Welsh hillside in fog (unlikely), there ain't much in my mind that we can assist with. Unless of course, you are over the Pond and such places - thats different.


To add weight to my argument, I may have an ATPL, but since allowing many PPL's to have a go, I have learnt many of the attributes and limitations of the D&D system.

I am getting hacked off with the amount of missed calls on a busy sector frequency whilst the controller gets heated and I await to press the tit. Maybe its cos all these boys n girls are to busy trying to do too many things at once. Look after yourself first chaps, then think of others, as I think we are getting our priorities mixed up here.

Communication gap/Experience gap.
 

Most PPL/SPL's do not have a good understanding of the nature of work when operating up to 300 or more tons of jet aircraft safely, expeditiously, quietly, and fuel-efficiently, within crowded airspace. And, to be fair, how could they comprehend this without practical experience? (Let's forget computer games please.)

Conversely, all airline crews are constituted of people who have been at the low end of the learning curve on their way upwards in their chosen PROFESSION. We do understand, and simply ask for a means whereby our concentration is not distracted at a critical period of the flight by insistent and often poor R/T from a relatively inexperienced and overloaded single pilot.

As we have an obligation to monitor 121.5 on our 3rd set, for good reason, a separate frequency such as 121.4, also monitored by the same agencies, could provide the basis for a service for lost non-professional pilots. Or indeed the unusual and UK-specific "Practice PAN".

I agree, the threat of a PA-28/C172 blundering into packed controlled airspace around EGSS/EGCC/EGLL/EGKK/EGPF or other places is a real one. These people should be helped if uncertain of their position, to avoid a serious accident.

Ultimately, my personal belief is that good aviation practice must dictate that even learning to fly a small aircraft in the UK should require basic radio-nav, visual nav, met and R/T skills at an early stage. Whoever said flying should be easy or cheap?

No doubt someone will find my considered contribution as condescending, hyper-critical, or whatsoever.

So the UK has filed a difference with ICAO. Very nice. However, it is the responsibility of the UK to ensure that their local difference does not in any way affect aircraft operating in airspace outside the UK. Since radio waves don't simply stop at the FIR boundary, many aircraft who are not at any time in UK airspace have to suffer the practice pan waffle.

So practice pan calls are to provide the student with essential practice and many agree that the calls are rambling with the inexperienced student unsure of what to say.

That in itself is much of the problem;

The student is so worried that they may not use the correct R/T words in the correct sequence that they eh and am and pause to think making the whole thing a shambles. This perception that some ATC person whill require exact wording in an emergency call to say that they are lost would indeed discourage inexperienced pilots for making a real call.

"Centre GABCD is unsure of position request assistance" / "Centre GABCD, I am lost request assistance" are two calls that should have no problem being understod in 99% of the world. No special words, phrases or secret codes to remember there eh?

So that is the R/T waffle out of the way. How about the practice. The instructor can act as D+D (unless they are lost as well) and make the appropriate responses to the students calls. They can even extend or adjust the simulated situation to a far better degree than they could with D+D.

Again I say that a visit to D+D can help.

Some of the comments on here only reinforce my opinion that most of the instructors who use the training on 121.50 do not know what they are doing...eg "I always ask on the FIR frequency first to see if it is OK" perhaps a visit to D+D at LTCC followed by a drive to LACC to visit the FIR would enable that person to see why that is a overall waste of time.

Oh, and did I say that many pilots who call for a training fix are actuall in a real state of being lost.......and straight away we get an example!

What is even more crazy about this whole thing is that instructors will take students off a LARS frequency onto 121.50 to do the practice pan! Why not simply tell the LARS or Approach or Tower or the FIR or whoever one is in contact with that one is lost. The FIR FISOs have a procedure that they folow to find lost aircraft and render assistance.

Regards,

DFC

You misunderstand the type of service you're requesting. In the UK (There is no such service as flight following) a Flight Information Service is not a radar service, you will not normally be given a squawk. If you want a radar service then you need to ask for one, either Radar Information or Radar Advisory of the appropriate unit.

HTH
BD

Not really. I'm aware of FIS/RIS/RAS, but again, RIS/RAS are UK only (RAS IFR only, anyway). Why not provide a comprehensive FIS (for want of a better acronym) as is the norm on the continent? Just to add, I'm aware of the 'workload permitting' disclaimer in the US (and indeed Europe), but that has, aside of one or two occurences in the LAX area, never been an issue for me.

Any service like that would actually solve two problems:
a) it would make PPL / VFR traffic more attuned to flying in the system
b) it would eliminate the (perceived) need to use 121.5 for practive calls

DFC - I like your theme. Infact I particularly like the promotion of a practice pan type call with the LARS freq. in use. Much more likely to be practical in the real event.

I still feel that by the instructor pretending to be the D&D so as a practice call can be made from stude to instructor will get the whole "procedure" across, it still doesn't allow the stude to realise in 'reality' it is simply a matter of talking to the controller who is really there to help and formal speak is not really required.

When doing the VHF Marine licence, we were told and trained that all callsigns are spoken three times and such like. But once I had gone and actually used the system for real, it became blindingly obvious this is not the case! It is far more relaxed but still professional. Now that I know this, I am more forthcoming in using the radio as it did sound rather pompous in training.

talking with my FI hat on, personally I do feel that doing a practice is of use to a new student before he goes off on his first solo nav. As others have said would you rather he get lost and carry on blundering into SS/GW or know what D&D could do for him and give them a call? Though I do have to admit that the idea of having a separate frequency for practices is a very good one so leaving 121.5 for genuine calls. I've was lucky enough to do a TC visit not long ago and sat with D&D for the best part of an hour seeing how their end works and asking lots of questions. Obviously the topic of whether or not they get fed up with GA calling practices all the time came up and I was emphatically told that they positively welcome all they calls they get. The RAF staff get rotated around the different mil units in TC every few months so they always have someone in training at all times so need the traffic. The day I was there I arrived around 1pm and they hadn't had any calls all morning (admitibly a rainy weekday)! Yes ok that doesn't particularly help you guys monitoring 121.5 in the air, but if the controllers can't train due lack of live traffic there wouldn't be anyone validated on the position...

I know I'm comparing apples with oranges here, but for those who turn 121.5 off below 10,000', it might be instructional to remember that the Iranian A300 was climbing through 14,000' out of Bandr Abass when the US Navy missile hit it. The USS Vincennes radio operator had been calling them for some time before that, but they didn't have the frequency selected.

It's not well known, but only a year or so after that terrible incident, the USN went within seconds of shooting down a Gulf Air A320 in very similar circumstances. The crew of the 320 that was approaching the US ship had a squark code of something like 7235 and neither pilot was listening out on 121.5. When the US Navy ship made its first call, another Gulf Air A320 at the same level and on a parallel course about 20 NM away and with a squark code of 7325 replied and made the turn away as demanded by the US ship. When the blip on the radar continued heading straight at the ship despite the pilot saying he had turned away, I understand that things got rather exciting in the ship's fire control centre.

It was only when the pilot of the 320 who had answered realised that he was over land and couldn't be the target the USN ship was tracking that he was able to convince the Americans he wasn't part of some ruse to attack them.

I understand the US ship got to within 30 seconds of launching a missile.

Meanwhile, the crew of the 'offending' A320 flew on oblivious.

I know this scenario isn't likely over London, but it might give some an idea why some people like to have 121.5 selected at all times.

Andu:

This thread is all about the use or the misuse of 121.5 in the United Kingdom. It is not about the use of 121.5 at Bushire, Shiraz, Esfahan, Bandar Abbas or Ras al Khaima.

So, you tell us that you fly around the hold at Lambourne and down finals at Heathrow with 121.5 turned fully up just because the US Navy shot down an A300 years ago in the Arabian Gulf (which I do admit is close to Essex) and all of this because your SOPs say so.

Well then, I think your SOPs or your understanding of them is sadly lacking.
As a TRI/TRE I thought I had better make sure that I hadn't forgotten what MY SOPs say so I looked them up.

The only reference made to monitoring 121.5 appears in the Part B/2.5.2:

2.5.2 En-route

"During longer sectors, in cruise, if no other communication is required, crews should monitor Frequency 121.5 on Box 2."

There is absolutely no mention of monitoring 121.5 during any other phase of flight except for cruise.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to tell us EXACTLY what your SOPs state?

To give the student confidence that they will be heard (almost) anywhere in the country, that auto-triangulation works and that D&D will not bite his or her head off (they don't - they are quite happy to do the 6 or so a day and encourage the practice).

I don't however see the need to do a practice once someone has a PPL or better.

Recently heard a low time PPL in an R22 get caught out in un-forecast bad wx. He asked the local airfield for help which they couldn't give (no VDF let alone radar or service higher than AFIS) They advised him to call 121.5. They then asked me to listen out on 121.5 and advise what was happenning. He called but was too low for local stations to get a fix (In the London area!!) two airliners came up and tried to help. Unfortunately they couldn't hear D&D because they were too far away and interrupted the relay D&D asked me to give.

Luckily the pilot had enough sense to land the aircraft as soon as he saw a clear area. The arcraft spent the night in a wet field but the pilot and passenger were safe. Unfortunately the pilots who tried to help caused confusion by not understanding a situation which was happening several hundred miles away in a country they weren't native to.

The confusion could have made things worse. A chat with the D&D controller later revealed his frustration with the situation especially as the AC in distress and myself were no more than 15 miles away from LATCC:ugh:

In my airline training (2 places), both said all distress communications should be initiated on the frequency already in use, and only then should 121.5 be used if no joy obtained. So in the UK, unless you believe there is a chance of getting shot down by the miliatary with no visual warning first (ie unlikley), then 121.5 should be virtually redundant for commercial pilots.

Meanwhile, you have UK guys on their first cross country VFR NAV exercise potentially getting lost, unaware of any available radar coverage, and risking IMC conditions or fuel starvation. SURELY these people should actually get priority, when there is no-one else with a radar for them to call?

Over the Middle East, or Africa, or elsewhere I can understand its a different story. But not in the UK.....

IMHO

Arrowhead, that is not the point! It is really not that difficult to understand what we are complaining about. Really!
IF a VFR pilot is actually really lost, NO ONE would hold it against him/her calling 121.5 saying: guys, help, I am lost.Why practice this? Do we practice calling 112? Try that and they'll send real cops after you!

The point is the countless dress rehersals on a frequency that should be reserved for the real thing.



And yes, there is a place for 121.5 in commercial aviation. ATC loses contact with aircraft countless times every day, for reasons other people have already explained. Think about it...

Actually they are not countless and they should not be reserved for the real thing as you would find out if you visited D & D at West Drayton.
D & D are quite happy with practice pan calls, as one of them pointed out to me the other day it is also practice for them as well.
FBW
PS However chatting on 121.5 is extremely frowned upon :=

Really, the point is not D&D who need practice.
I am sure they are very nice people, happy to help and extremely useful in an emergency.

But once again, does your 4 year old son practice calling 112?
If your 4 year old son does not need to practice calling 112, would it not be enough for a mature person (a pilot), just to know that when sh!t hits the fan, there is a lot of help available worldwide, on 121.5.
All they have to say is: HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!! (long enough for a fix)

PS. For every chat on 121.5, there are 20 practice pans. (figures derived using D&D logic :))

The point is.....................there is nothing wrong in making practice pan calls on 121.5
As you would be informed if you took the trouble to visit D & D at West Drayton.
FBW

Ok. It is good to ignore all the concerns raised here.
All rubbish. Clog up 121.5

Guys, are you bored up there during the cruise? Can't get your mind around another sudoku? Give them boys at D&D a call on 121.5. Practice those PANS! It's all right by them. Let's see just how far they can triangulate. Maybe we'll raise the total airtime to 2%. Get them some overtime pay.

Do we practice calling 112? Try that and they'll send real cops after you!

No we don't (the equivalent number in the UK is 999) and they send the cops because its illegal, because they don't want you to do it.

We practice training fixes and pans on 121.5, because (a) it's legal and (b) they want us to. So no cops, because it is a different scenario.

Each national authority tends to take different views and as pilots, we have to respect that, even if we disagree.

I don't like the ways the US uses land and hold short clearances, but if I choose to fly there, then I have to accept it as a constraint.

If you choose to fly in the UK, you must accept our national authorities procedures.

F3G,

HEAR HEAR :D

OC619

112/999, the whole of Europe agreed on 112...what is it with you guys in the UK? ;)

I give up.

If you do not sense that calling 999 is similar to using 121.5, then there is not much to discuss.

1957/58 I served my National Service as an Operations Clerk in Air traffic Control at a number of Fighter Command stations.The worse job allocated to us would have been sat in aroom on our own listening out to 121.5.In all that time I only recall one transmission and that was an emergency(a Hunter with undercarraige failure.He banged out)The point I am making is that it was drummed into us that 121.5 was REAL emergency only:sad:

Ah, so since D&D doesn't mind every airliner up to CDG can listen to triangulations of a not-really-lost single engine aircraft somewhere in the UK.
Nice.
121.5 doesn't stop at the edge of the island.:E

Yes........so get used to it.
(until they dispense with 121.5.....but I won't go into that)
FBW

May I ask those "professional" pilots who are complaining (not too many I see BTW), what is it that is raising such ire? Is it because it is something which you know you cannot get exclusive use of? Cannot exclude GA and so forth. You already have exclusivity in a lot of airspace in your oft half empty tubes so please don't make such a fuss about a little radio frequency that we all might need to use sometime.

Exactly :ok: !

Except for practice pan calls :ok:

:ugh:
I'm sorry I can't explain properly the inconvenience caused and the potential problems it might cause one day, so I'll leave it here.
Have fun with practising!:}

klink


I'm sorry I can't explain properly the inconvenience caused and the potential problems it might cause one day, so I'll leave it here.

Maybe it would be best if you no longer fly in UK airspace? Because our national authority do not agree with you.

And they make the rules.

And you must comply.

Have a nice life.

D & D is unique in that it is a dedicated service one of the few in the world.

The UK authorities deem that it is acceptable for UK pilots to practice calling D & D in simulated emergencies.

In my 18 years as a PPL I have made one practice call whilst on my own and one position uncertain call a year or two later.

In the real case, I had no hesitation in putting in the call to D & D knowing what the response is like in both style and TONE.

Within 3 minutes I was sorted. I have never had to call again but would not hesitate to do if I had to.

This is in contrast to some ATS units where nothing in the world would make me chose to talk to some of the condesending and smug t*ats who operate them.

Anyway to ensure we retain D & D they need to show they perform a useful service and GA calls underpin the demand. Of course, the airlines do not fund D&D so do not control it like they do with NATS.

I am sure the D & D guys would rather be helping GA pilots and real emergencies that listening to some ignorant foreign pilots discussing who they slept with previous night when they use 121.5 incorrectly.

What on earth are you talking about.

If the practice calls are so important then how come a large number of UK training organisations are not in a position to make such calls. It is only the SE 1/5 of the UK airspace thas has any decent VHF autotriangulation. Thus only a very limited number of organisations do this poractice rubbish.

One of the earlier comments sums up the problem. .......I got lost doing visual nav so I asked for a training fix to find out where I was (hiding the fact of being lost) and then learned how to use VOR etc.......

How about corectly learning how to navigate visually.

Let me see........the UK needs a super dooper fixer service on 121.50 with lots of practice calls because pilots are always getting lost and infringing some critical airspace or the other but only in the south east of the country.

They also love flying into cloud and killing themselves so a special IMC rating is required which mixes public ransport operations with non-qualified pilots flying in IMC who are not trained or tested to fly a hold and are very limited in what they can actually do in IMC.

Those than can't obtain an aviation medical can go to their GP provided they are fit enought to drive a car, they too can mix it with public transport operations in controlled airspace in an aircraft with uncertified and unchecked essential equipment such as altimeters

Is it me or is there a sense of crutches being handed out to toppling patients?

Why does no where else practice on 121.50, why does nowhere else have an IMC rating, why does no where else allow pilots to fly with only the medical standard of as typical aged car driver?

Cause they are all wrong. The UK is always right. That why they always do it their way!

Regards,

DFC

so, the rest of the world is wrong, and your practice in the UK is right :ugh:

sure.

keep driving on the wrong side of the road:ok:

Complete rubbish, as you would find out if you visited D & D at West Drayton.
FBW

DFC

I can only say that your last post takes the art of polemic to rabid levels, as well as misrepresenting the facts of my post.

1 - I didn't get lost, I was unable to satisfactorily confirm ded reckoning by pilotage at a waypoint due to sun/haze - could only see one line feature and could not triangulate - if you cannot understand the difference between being unable to confirm your exact position and being lost, you are a fool

2 - Even at 70 hours, I had enough airmanship to realise that an airspace bust was a possibility, without further action

2 - My training fix call was an appropriate use of the service

3 - I acted within the ANO and didn't bust controlled airspace

4 - I learned that visual nav and sun/haze was not a good combination and took extra training to ensure I was better prepared

So, in conclusion, I didn't break any laws, didn't cause any flights to take avoiding action, used the service as recommended by the national authority and then topped up my knowledge to avoid a repetition in the next 12 years.

And you have the temerity and arrogance to make your last post.

Capt Airprox and others take a far more sensible line

Retention of D&D is a licensing requirement on NATS. The airlines do, in a roundabout manner, fund D&D whereas GA do not in any sense. The airlines do not control NATS and I wonder why you have that impression?

As a former holder of a D&D licence I can say with authority that 95% of the time the dedicated D&D controllers sit around twiddling their thumbs bored to tears. So any sort of 'action' is welcome but you have to be careful what you wish for ;)

My 'worst' incorrect use of 121.5 was of a flight heading West across the ocean where they transmitted the usual 'Welcome on board, our flight time blah blah', took about 2 minutes.

BD

DFC When are you going to come off the fence and say what you really mean? ;)

BTW Auto-Triang is available in the whole of the London FIR. Its only not available in the Scottish FIR. The original reason was cost. There are very few 121.5 receivers in Scotland and it covers a very large area. Coverage in the London FIR is much better AND its where the vast majority of 'Practice Pans' occur.

BD