The mil introduced a 'Practice Emergency Training Frequency' (PETF) to reduce the loading on UHF 243.0. The main reasons were to prevent Pilots 'tuning out' from 243, but also to ensure the 243.0 frequency was available for a genuine emergency when it was really required.

Frequencies are scarce in the UK, but if D+D training is considered to hold such a high Flight Safety benefit then a VHF one could and should be made available. Both the reasons that caused the Mil to create a PETF are equally valid for 121.5

Its proberly going to come down to money as usual.

All the 121.5 transmiters / DF receivers upgraded to work on 2 freq's, a extra set of boxes in D&D all the cabling "stuff" to pipe the extra about the country.

The Mil got there system years ago when the cold war was on and money wasn't as much of an issue as it is today. I wonder if they decided today that they required a freq networked for the whole of the UK if they would get it.

It would appear to be too difficult for the CAA to either fund another frequency for training fixes in the UK or, indeed, cannot find one that is not in use already. D&D are already monitoring two frequencies 243.0 mhz (Mil) and 121.5 mhz (Civ).

Mind you, even if Guard was left for Actual Emergencies only, They would still be distracting to those not involved.

Perhaps, the only other solution is to have a 3rd person in CAT aircraft to monitor 121.5. I guess in the old days; a Flight Engineer or Third pilot could have done so leaving the other pilots to concentrate on box one.

Can't see the bean counters liking that one though!


(Edited to say I was unaware of a mil training fix freq. I left the RAF in 1991 - so obviously out of date now!)

Are all London (and let's face it, damn near all UK) ATC terminal frequencies sometimes very busy indeed much if not most of the time?
- Yes

Does even the most professional pilot sometimes get a frequency transfer wrong and end up 'in limbo', even if only for a few minutes?
- Certainly

Is this an ideal situation, particularly in a really busy TMA?
-Certainly not

Is the procedure that most, (but, from reading some posts here, certainly not all) pilots and airlines employ, to have one radio always tuned to 121.5 not a safe and sure way to ensure that ATC can immediately contact any such an aircraft with minimum delay and therefore minimum disruption?
- Well I would have thought so.

Would any pilot in his right mind object to a low time PPL (or Chuck *** Yeager!) who is is unsure of his position calling in a PAN on 121.5?
- N-O!!!

But....
Do Practice Pans unnecessarily clutter up an - the - emergency frequency, causing many people within range to switch the frequency off or lower the volume to the point where its facility would be lost should ATC need to contact any one of those many aircraft?
- Yer darn tootin' they do.

The D&D triangulation facility is a fantastic aid for anyone unfortunate enough to get caught short in the UK's sometimes very changeable weather. But if it is as important as many here insist it is, surely a dedicated (or, given the shortage of frequencies, a not often used or not so critical) frequency can be found for practice PANS so that 121.5 can be kept solely for actual emergencies or critical re-establishment of comms with 'in limbo' aircraft.

Shytorque - that would be me then.

On the one hand all airline pilots are told that they must monitor 121.5 at all times on pain of being shot at by the Military.

On the other hand trying to monitor 121.5 at all times is WHILST using another radio is rendered near impossible on a nice sunny Sunday over the UK due to the near constant stream of GA use of 121.5.

That's the nub of the issue. It is not a fault or blame issue. Its simply flight safety.

Cheers

WWW

Did hear a couple of Korean Air pilots babbling in Korean on 121.5 a couple of months ago. One called the other in english and I figured they would then go to a different frequency but then the Korean started.

WWW with the stats given in that report there are 160 calls for training a month which works out at about 6 a day.

As the report says each call lasts a Min. This isn't a number that they made up its a fact which has proberly cost 1000's of pounds to prove.

So on Sunday you might get 40 mins of calls in the space of 10 hours.

The percieved constant stream proberly isn't. If it wasn't for the fact that most of the calls were using cringing RT you would have tuned them out. A bit like if you hear a poor bookin on box one. If the other aircraft had given a standard call eg callsign, passing level, level cleared and sid. You hardly even registered it was made but if you hear callsign ,err um, sid ,er um, something which isn't required. Your attention is drawn to it with a proffesional tut tut.

Anyway even if they did get a seperate frq and all the flashy stuff. 2 weeks later the next moan would start. To much background noise on on 121.5 its not squelched on the standard settings. Have to turn the box down so it doesn't distract me, or something else equally problomatic solving. Or something that the CAA really can't do anything about eg none G reg aircraft using it for anything other than emergency.

It keeps the equipment working and as we all know elecy stuff doesn't like being left on standby for long periods. It train's the low hour pilots, it trains the controllers, and I have a suspision as well that the fact it annoys BA captains to frothing point it will been seen as another good reason to keep it as it is.

SRG are proberly quite happy to let this run and run. They have a good safety case for maintaining it as it is. And at least it deflects and keeps the moans away from subjects they wouldn't have as strong case and would be technically and more expensive to solve.

The MoD introduced a PETF (Practice Emergency Training Frequency) in the early 90's (1993 I think), which was just after the 'Options for Change' and 'Front Line First' rounds of spending cuts, when money certainly wasn't around in abundance (compulsory redundancies in several tranches were run).

As far as I'm aware, the receivers etc don't need to be upgraded or need more pipework, but an extra radio box at the other end is required and the ability to transfer the new DF onto their 'big picture' of the UK would need to be installed - hardly bank breaking I'd like to think. The difficult bit would be getting a common freq UK wide.

A lot has been said..

Yet I still cannot understand the safety aspect of this whole homing business. Chaps, the Great War is over! We are not flying Lancasters anymore eventhough I am sure they had better navigational solutions!

Teach your students some basic VOR navigation, let them buy a handheld GPS, even an ordinary PDA with a TomTom moving map will do. Even more, it will prevent you getting lost in the first place.

This homing is a thing of the past.

Mike,

I think you're missing the point perhaps?

The issue isn't about ways of getting through to company ops - and if you're making an approach in a busy TMA, perhaps the priority should be to turn UP 121.5 as that may be the only available frequency for ATC to get through to you on due frequency congestion?

Just my tuppence worth.

Regards.

Good points from both sides of the argument.

With the transfer of the CAA "power" to europe. Is this ICAO opt out one of the issues which will fall under their remit?

Am I out of step here? Am I the only guy who turns 121.5 right down or even off when I am in a busy ATC environment?

3 Greens, surley that is not a traiing fix but a "real" fix.

I think that everybody is overreacting to this, sometimes it is neccessary to turn 121.5 down for a few moments, then you turn it up again.

It's not rocket science.

PETF 243.8 was in use from the early '70's. Few if any civil ATC units can Tx/Rx on 121.5 so arguments that ATC can 'easily' contact an aircraft listening on it are pointless; the ATC unit involved would need to phone D & D to establish contact with the aircraft first and that would take time, especially if they were busy.

Exactly. If calls on a secondary radio make a crew distracted enough for this to become the major issue some seem to think it is, it smacks of poor training, mis-management of radios or poor in-flight procedures. If a pilot turns down the volume of 121.5 a little for a while, so what? Surely a crew can cope with something as minor as that, for goodness' sake?

If a call on 121.5 is interfering with calls on the other radio, surely there is no flight safety issue with regard to "lost contact" because the aircraft is already in contact with ATC on the other box. It's a CRM issue, not a fault of the UK system.

I look upon the regular "distractions" on 121.5 (mainly inattentive airline pilots, exactly as the FODCOM says) as a positive thing - I know the radio is tuned and ready for use. If we turn the volume down if necessary - then we turn it up again, shortly afterwards.

BTW, What happened to "Select, Tune and Identify"?

<<turn UP 121.5 as that may be the only available frequency for ATC to get through to you on due frequency congestion?>>

With the usual proviso that I've been retired a while and procedures may have changed... During my 31 years in UK ATC I was never trained to, and never trained anyone, to even think of using 121.5 to contact an aircraft when the normal frequency was busy, or for any other reason. In the event of a radio failure we would ask the company if they had contact, but never ever use 121.5. 121.5 is an EMERGENCY frequency, plain and simple.

The arrogance and pomposity in this thread is truly astounding.

Did all you sky gods become perfect from day one? Do none of you recall nervousness using the unfamiliar radio while being taught to fly?

I used to teach PPLs and have also been lost when I was a PPL. The feeling of terror that it invokes in a low houred newbie out of his depth should not be forgotten. A small familiarisation with D & D procedures has no doubt saved small problems becoming more serious.

I find the ceaseless inane chat on the Atlantic on 123.45 far more irritating than a newbie practising what one day may save his or her life.

The PETF is no currently available in the Scottish FIR but the MoD have requested it and will get it.
If there was to be a requirement for a civilian PETF then there would be enormous expense in new transmitters and receivers plus the connections to the two area control centres. Plus fitting them into the D&D (or as it will be called A&FC) fixing facility.
Who would pay for this??
Actually thats quite simple.

This has recently been discussed in the ATC forum here

BD

..And with what would they be busy then?:hmm:
I whitnessed once a landing clearance being issued on the 121.5 (in Porto) to an aircraft on finals.
Just before that he was told to switch over from approach to tower, and from that moment on, he was unreachable. So instead of letting the aircraft go in the Missed Approach, someone got creative and made the call on 121.5. So somehow this switching/requesting to make calls on 121.5 doesn't take all ATC units a long time.

Edited for chevvron. If still unclear, I'll edit again! :)

Until 1998 I had a Scottish D&D ATCO licence and its the only way they can train staff on using 121.5 for real. London D&D has auto-triangulation on 121.5 with it displayed on a PC type screen which has detailed overlay maps. Scottish D&D has to rely on airfields and (mainly) the coastguard giving the DF reading, which is then plotted manually on a map. Thats why it takes so long.
Nah, they are the operators. Emergency frequency usage is decided MUCH higher up the food chain :)

BD

Chill, dude
 

Hey Final 3 Greens, you better get out more often!


Granted some may agree and some may disagree with the line I wrote, and I am prepared to accept that I can be wrong. But there is really no need to shout.

If my contribution was the most idiotic thing you have read for a while, pray why not check out some other threads or even, for example, the BBC website? Or CNN for that matter.

Idiocy is a bit of an offensive label, and I feel you were being more than rude there.

Anyone understand what klink is talking about 'cos I don't.

fmgc
3 Greens, surley that is not a traiing fix but a "real" fix.

I tend to agree with you. I wasn't totally lost, but unsure enough of where the zone boundary was. There was heavy haze and bright sunshine and although it was about 8Km viz, I just couldn't see my waypoint - that was a real lesson learned :uhoh:

It just happened that the training fix procedure was the most expeditious method under the circumstances ... "London D&D, G-ABCD training fix training fix training fix", receiving a rapid bearing and distance in response.

All over in seconds and a potential zone bust avoided. And a couple of hours invested afterwards in learning how to track navaids with an instructor made sure it never happened again.

Hhhhmmm. As a previously licensed D&D controller I can assure you that aircraft (almost invariably GA) still get lost with monotonous regularity in the UK. Your technological solution is ideal but not utilised in the UK. Use of a transponder squawking 7700 or 0023 would assist as well but a lot of aircraft aren't suitably equipped nor the pilots trained to operate them.

The 'safety' aspect has two parts to it really:
1) If you're lost and IMC then its quite possible that you'll suffer a CFIT.

2) If you're lost and blundering around inside controlled airspace then identification, with position fixing will get the previously lost aircraft out of the way before some metal gets welded. Controllers are legally entitled to assume that non squawking aircraft are not within controlled airspace and they will direct their own aircraft right through a non squawking radar target.

BD

Stats Stats Stats
 

Are we in danger of mis reading the stats here in the FODCOM?

BTW I have no axe to grind as a GA FI and an airline pilot.

training fixes werewere erroneous or inadvertent calls by commercial pilots.

From neither statement can we deduce how much airtime is taken up by these erroneous calls nor what percentage of calls were training fixes.

The FODCOM is probably trying to make a valid point but I would not have written it that way.

Please don't do this in the UK. Unless you want to fly in formation to an unscheduled destination.

STH

With all this chatter, I'm lost!


My company which spends half its time flying through TMA's has no policy about listening to 121.50. If you receive no R/T for a bit we do radio check or revert to previous freq...Simply as. We have no time to monitor another frequency.

As an instructor of PPL, come on commercial pilots. Do you remember the first time you picked up the mike to do a PA???? All very well talking about it but doing it is another kettle of fish. Now think back to your PPL if you can? Again yeah, we can use GPS blah blah blah. But when the !!!! hits the fan and you are lost and totally out your depth, you have a hand on the stick and no further mental capacity.......dial 121.50 and call "Help".

You professional guys forget. Its exactly because of comments and attitudes of clever wits that stops PPL's having the ordacity to press the PTT on 121.50 for "fear" of sounding a dick. So why not (as an FI) ask the D&D controller if its a good moment - to then prove to the stude that actually, when you really need the service - stuff protocol and sounding "correct" - just talk to the fella and ask for help......

Jesus, one day this pilot is going to need it. Whether it be 121.50 or an active radar frequency. On the basis most normal frequnecies are max'd out all the time, why not do it when the D&D can accept.

As a student or new PPL, its grand to know that in reality, when you need help on whatever freqency, it doesn't matter what you say aslong as you talk and obtain help. Cos then - LIFE IS SAVED.

Same with boating - most boats have a GPS etc - when its rough and sea pouring over the open deck - we have to resort to belt n braces. Compass et al. SAme with flying - try fart arsing around with a GPS when you don't know your arse from your elbow?

I find it very sad that people are reluctant to use a distress frequency because of fear of reprisal. If true professional's can't deal with a facet of learning the ropes then I am ashamed to be part of this profession.

Hear Hear Capt Airprox

there cant be that many trianing calls wasting time on the D&D, several occasions I've been asked whilst travelling north to scotland, to call them for thier practice .

Incidentally I now fly commercially into europe on a daily basis and commercial pilots are definately the worst offenders of misuse of the frequency.

Nothing worse than trying to listen to a controller pass a freq change/heading/alt just to have 121.5 blast into life with some **** talking to his mate. As said early normally results in turning the thing down to a level where you can only just hear voices, so could be anything going on.

I have every sympathy with both the student and GA pilot using 121.5 to save their lives. I have trained many to use it without hesitation. I taught PPLs at EGCW and we refered to 121.5 as "EGCW Radar" - being hard to find anyway and churning out 60 PPLs a year we were one of their biggest customers!

And yet. The current situation is that on many days many airliners are turning 121.5 down to nothing because of the high levels of GA use. They then forget to turn them up again 5 minutes later. There are several ways of tackling this flight safety hazard. My preferance would be to invest in a 121.4 solely for GA use in the UK airspace offering a dedicated D&D service.

Cheers

WWW

Who is going to pay for the infrastructure for this service bearing in mind that GA don't pay for emergency services provided by D&D? (I'm assuming here that the military controllers who man D&D would be providing this service as currently).
NATS currently provide the infrastructure for 121.5 and the RAF are paid to provide the trained manpower. The current provision is a part of the licensing requirements of the CAA. Provision of another service would have to be negotiated and, as NATS are a privately owned company and its not a part of their licensing agreement, paid for.

BD

BDiONU said "GA don't pay for emergency services provided by D&D? " By this are you inferring that others do? If that is not the case then why single out GA as not paying. Can we please be clear on something. GA PAYS IN MANY WAYS THAT CAT DOES NOT.

SirToppamHat:

"Please don't do this in the UK. Unless you want to fly in formation to an unscheduled destination".

I question your priorities, old son. Are you really telling me that you have 121.5 turned up fully whilst going round the Lambourne hold? Are you really telling me that you have 121.5 turned fully up when you are on finals at Heathrow? If so, then I suggest you pay more attention to the radio that really matters at the time.

I agree with Mike Jenvey, turn it down or off below 10,000 feet.

I have been flying around UK for almost half a century now with no problems. You are only likely to get visitors when things have gone deathly quiet for no good reason.

The only times that I have ever been intercepted have been when we invited them to do so by "embellishing".

Those who pay route charges pay NATS and it is NATS who fund the civil element of D&D and the associated infrastructure.
Whilst I recognise that this may seem contentious to you WorkingHard GA do get a 'free ride' in a sense. It could be argued that provision of D&D should be considered to be like that of the Police, Fire, Ambulance and Coastguard. The difference being that they're publically funded bodies, NATS is a privately owned company which needs revenue to continue to stay in business. The current provision of Alerting & Fixing services is a part of NATS license to operate and I have no difficulty with that, where I see a problem is in provision of a new service.

Regards
BD

Mike Jenvey/JW411

I don't disagree with the basic principle you state. And as long as you are in good 2-way comm with ATC you should be fine.

I merely wish to make the point that many of the transmissions on VHF Guard are made by ATC/D&D attempting to make contact with crews who are, at best, careless and at worst negligent when switching between agencies/countries. We have all heard these calls, and it wouldn't surprise me if they average out about the same, in terms of time, as the GA use. How many times does traffic entering the UK go to Oceanic to get clearance (which can be a lengthy process!) without telling ATC first? How can you be in receipt of a Radar Control Service if you aren't in contact with ATC? The professional approach espoused by so many in this forum doesn't seem to apply to all in this respect. It also seems to me that there are one or 2 carriers to whom calls are made more often than most others.

STH

Edited for bod spilling

Heathrow Director says on page 3I'd say that on one on four flights through western European airspace, I hear Rhine or some other ATC agency calling up on 121.5 to some errant aircraft, instructing him to call them on xxx.xx.

Back to the main nub of the argument: no one is complaining about a GA (or any) pilot calling up on 121.5 if he's unsure of his position. However, it's the "Practice Pans" on that same emergency frequency that most non-UK pilots find a bit unusual.

I think I would be pretty safe in saying that this use of an emergency frequency as a training aid is something that happens nowhere else but in the UK. People trained in the UK grew up with it and don't find it a problem because it's what they've always been used to.

And yes, I leave 121.5 on and up in the Lambourne hold and on finals into Heathrow, (as per company SOP, it's always selected, except briefly, when that radio is used to contact the company or perhaps get an ATIS).

Did I say 'always'? That should be amended to "...except on Sunday afternoons in mid summer going ointo London, when the frequency is usually aclutter with "Practice *** PANs"!!!"

Andu:the number of calls on 121.5 in Rhine airspace could be because the crew have omitted to either select or de-select 8.33kz on their radio, thus when changing to/from an 8.33 channel, they actually dial up the incorrect frequency

Andu:

"And yes, I leave 121.5 on and up in the Lambourne hold and on finals into Heathrow, (as per company SOP, it's always selected, except briefly, when that radio is used to contact the company or perhaps get an ATIS).....except on Sunday afternoons in UK ........".

I am totally fascinated by this. I have never ever flown for a company that insisted in its SOPs that I have to have 121.5 turned on and up in a high traffic environment. What would such an SOP be trying to achieve? There is a very good D & D organisation in the UK and the likelihood of you getting involved in relaying a Mayday whilst on finals at Heathrow is, quite frankly, risable.

Furthermore, are you seriously suggesting that your No.2 box would not be on the ATIS whilst LVPs were in force or do you REALLY switch back and forth to Guard? What does your SOP say about that?

Does it really say in your SOPs that you can ignore your SOPs on a Sunday afternoon in UK or are you admitting that you don't really follow SOPs that you (and I) think are pointless?

Not on the airline style radios I have seen, you do it all with the rotary selector, no 8.33 button.

In the big scheme of things I guess it's not a major problem but every time someone does a practice PAN or uses 121.5 to call a mate upwards of a hundred airliners are having to turn the radio down to avoid missing ATC calls, you hear practice pans from the UK well down into France, and in Holland and Belgium so it's not just a problem confined to UK airspace. I used the service once when I got lost with about 60 hours in my logbook so I know it's great and you need to have some sort of practice at it but now that we are all encouraged (required really) to monitor 121.5 whenever possible it seems that perhaps another frequency, either for them or for us, would be very useful.

I have to say I turn off 121.5 when close to UK airspace during the day as there seems to be a lot more than 1% of the time taken up by practice calls (maybe I'm just unlucky). Having missed several clearances in the LTMA/Daventry area because someone fired off on the other frequency just at the wrong moment, I think I'm better concentrating on ATC. I don't do this anywhere else in the world as at least there is no official use of this channel.

The statistics may be in favour of the GA pilot but I think this misses the point in terms of distraction. With experience, you get to be able to monitor two, maybe three ATC frequencies simultaneously because you develop the ability to filter out communication not of interest to yourself. A 'company call' on 121.5 by mistake is short-lived and easy to disregard but I haven't yet acquired the knack of blocking out minutes of amateur RT. (Not meant to cause offence!) Somehow you find yourself giving attention to it when you don't want to.

Maybe we should ban all practice calls except for during NOTAM'd periods. 2-3pm on Sunday afternoons should suit those concerned. ;)