London city airport
 

Just wondering: Short runway, steep approach...

Seems to be mostly turboprops/BAe 146s there.
However, I once saw a Fokker 100 there.

Can any other aircraft use it?

737-500?? A319??

Discuss......


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Live long and Prosper.....

From the limited knowledge that I have of that AD, I think it's not only the aircraft characteristics that limit it. The fact that it is right in the middle of a densley populated area might have something to do with it (NIMBY's and noise levels, saftey considerations etc).

Of course, the steep approach factor that you mentioned is also important as they will only allow a/c cleared for approch path angles of 5.5 deg or greater. Which rules out most shorthaul type jets that are best operated on a 3 deg basis (due SOPs or FM data).

Swashplate- I doubt you saw a Fokker 100 there, although one operator used a Fokker 70 for a while. AFAIK, only the 146 and F70 are certified for LCY (apart from exec jets). Not such a problem for turboprops. No way you'd get any Boeing or Airbus in there (runway is 1200x30m).

Hmmmmmmmm...........

.....thinking about it, it could have been a Fokker 70. It was a while ago!

Maybe runway Length is an arguement for whirlybirds!! :) :)

But what about the A318/regional jets?? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[This message has been edited by swashplate (edited 20 June 2001).]

The problem is parking. The stands won't take anthing A318/737-500 size, though the runway is not as limiting as you might think. There are obstacle problems, too, significantly the warehouse just south of the 28 climb-out.

Beautiful, fun, little airport though - I miss it!!

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'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.

It isn't so much a TODA/LDA problem, it's the approach that prevents A318/737s from landing there... no way either of them will make the 5.5 degree glideslope- they can't slow down adequately on the approach. Prove me wrong, somebody...

LCY is one of the world's "intersting" approaches.....Especially with a hefty wind blowing as it does in East London.

Another regular visiter is the Dornier 328. it is regularly flown into LCY by Scot Airways and also the De Havilland Dash 7/8

Also F27, Saab 340/2000

Nope, sorry. No F27's use LCY (and never have done- not enough SE climb performance).

Question: What looks like an F27, but really isn't...???

There hasn't been a Dash 7 in there in many years, nor a Saab 340...

Anybody remember London City Airways?

These days, it's 146/RJ, Saab 2000, Dornier 328, ATR42, Dash 8, Fokker 50. Until recently, Jetstream 41. Coming soon, Q400, RJX. Possible the 328Jet if Dornier do the airframe mods (not looking likely at the moment). Some have mooted the ERJ145, but that is unlikely too due to performance and structural problems.

[This message has been edited by Raw Data (edited 22 June 2001).]

Raw Data,

I doubt that the RWY is the limiting factor for 737 operations, as I know that DM uses B735 for the faroe Islands (RWY 1250m, but used to be 1150m)

I know that the 146 is certified for LCY, does that include ARJ (it ought to be, as the performance is pretty much better)

rgds FS

Raw Data

Could that be a Fokker 50??

That does not have a impressive single engine performance either.

Flap Sup, if you observe the tarmac at LCY during peak time(s), all LX 146s you will see are from the RJ family, either -85, -100, or 100 MkII.

For all the readers, one interesting thing about operating the ARJ, is max performance take-off out of LCY is done using full flaps, e.g. flaps 33 http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif
It must be the only A/C to take off with full flaps for MTOM or are they any other?

One other future aircraft that might be coming into LCY soon (alright, not before about 2 years) is the ERJ170. LX has ordered 30 of those (+another 30 of the 190-200 type) and those have been ordered on the promise they could operate into LCY. From what I heard, flaps alone will not permit to maintain the slope during the approach. They will have speedbrakes (spoilers) on the top of the wing, but, as with similarly equipped airplanes cannot be used when the flaps are down. So. It seems Embraer is looking at a under belly speed brake, similar in concept to the one used on some fighter aircraft!
Wait and see ;)

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... cut my wings and I'll die ...

http://www.londoncityairways.co.uk/

Ah now that takes me back... ;)

Flap Sup- Like I said, not the runway, the 5.5 degree glideslope. No way you can slow down any Boeing or Airbus on that slope. Having said that, even if you could use a 3 degree glideslope, I doubt the 737 could lift more than a half load and virtually no fuel on a warm, calm day. Especially considering the engine-out climb requirements. Maybe a 737 driver could provide some figures?

Besides, the 737 couldn't land there without reversers, I fancy (reversers not allowed for noise reasons).

Raw Data;

Indeed we opperate the F27 daily into LCY. And yes its a F27-mk50 or in other words Fokker 50. and it just looks like a friendship. As for the jet ops why do you guy's think the 328 jet has not been to LCY yet? according to my sources it's the speed thing, they just can't loos it. as for a 146 they go "much" faster on level flight but nothing beats a turboprop on app. 220 till 8 miles and flight idle makes for a smooth approach that seems to please even the pax. Why then do they allways put us behind those oversized gupy's. where we end up minimum app speed on 20 miles????? Planning is everything controlers (especialy thems)

I gues they can't make good for the descend profile well enough on most jets and where are we going to put them ( dash8 need two stands to park in one other wise they risk loosing theyre nose gear!!!!) Fokker is dead long live Fokker.

Pointer

Well maybe this is semantics; however, my info is that the F50 is not in any way, shape or form officially an F27. The two are quite different; diferent fuselage, different engines, different wing, different landing gear, no pneumatics on the F50, new flight deck, etc...

Regarding approaches, much as I hate to rain on you parade, you seem to have it backwards. It is usually the F50 slowing us down (in the 146). You see, we maintain 250 kts to about 7 miles, then just go flight idle and open the airbrake. By 4 miles we are at 120 kts, configured for landing and stable. If one is feeling particularly heroic, you can keep 250 kts to 5 miles, but that means not being stable at 120 kts or so until about 2 miles. Sorry, but thems the facts!

Mostly, the reason you get minimum safe approach speed at 20 miles is the same as we do; somebody backtracking for departure. A real pain, until that is it is your turn to backtrack for departure!

One thing is for sure, Fokker made some great aircraft- I used to love flying the F27...

Raw Data,

On some parts you are correct it has no pneumatics and different ldg gear and also the engines are of a different bread. but for the rest it is an F27 (so says the type: F27-mk50) except for the windows they seem to keep us at slow speed. the fuselage is defenetly the same (plus or minus a plug) and for the wings they are also the same as the F27 ( again except for the Fokker invention of the winglets called foklets).

The inside is somewhat more modern, quiet and amazing clean setup.

I wonder who you fly for?????? because yes it is offcourse generalised to say they are all slow, i'm ammazed to hear what you can do with that british technological "wonder" and no offence intended. but some 146 drivers........lets call it :need the blockhours!

I'm trying to leave my fokker and go on to something else.....maybe a 146 is not a bad place to be?

See ya in LCY?

Pointer

[This message has been edited by Pointer (edited 26 June 2001).]

Pointer,

OK, didn't know about the designation. The reasons I said the fuselage is different are:

Different windows
Different door type and location
No cargo area at the front

Plus of course the British CAA require a separate type rating for it, as they feel it is too different to the F27 to be covered by a "differences" course.

Yes, many 146 drivers do fly very slowly around LCY. Perhaps it comes down to company policy. Our original brief for LCY called for slowing down to 140 kts a long way out, but that simply isn't very practical. Of course, sometimes everybody is being slowed dowm for congestion- I have been slowed to 220 kts while still 70 miles out, then brought back to 160 kts when 40 miles out due traffic. We usually end up getting slowed down by Dornier 328s when there isn't much other traffic.

We don't always maintain high speeds to finals, we are normally back a bit from that. However, we can keep the speed up if asked to. Some pilots are more comfortable with it than others, too.

Also, some pilots only fly there occasionally, and they (quite rightly) tend to be very cautious. I do it every day, so I know exactly what I can achieve there. I guess my favourite LCY experience is a visual approach on 10. We call that the Buckingham Palace 1A approach.

The 146 is definitely fun, I'll guarantee you that!

Who do I work for? Well, who uses most of the stands at busy times?? :)

See you in LCY!

RD, ooohhh, then we must working for the same company, uh?

:) :)

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... cut my wings and I'll die ...

Nah... don't they teach you guys to count in Switzerland...???

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

RD,

correct its a different plane(with! cargo space up front) overall.

I do agree on the part about taking no gambles at LCY, it is a lot of fun when all is well, but if you relax....it bites you in the rear!

Indeed the 10 is the best on a sunny day when it's bussy.

And about who occupies the most stands when its bussy??? since we don't fly the 146 you are both incorrect...it us the "fat lady" painter.

See Ya,
Pointer

Aha! Thought so.

Well, today we had 4x 146 and 2x Dash 8 all parked at the same time... ;)

You guys always worry us when you take off. We were sure one of your aircraft had experienced and engine failure a few days back, it was climbing so slowly. Guess you must have good loads!

Enjoy your wonderful Fokker flight deck... think of us poor folk with our clockwork dials and big switches...

Yes you can say that. We frequently have it maxed out sort of waiting for that gust to make our perf. Do you guy's use KGS as well? The girls are pretty good on theire job but a few guy's worry me all the time.

The identity crisis on your a/c is just commercialy?

Pointer

No, we use Servisair (who are actually very good indeed).

It is a bit unfortunate that we use the AF-liveried aircraft sometimes at LCY. They were all originally painted for franchise routes, but find themselves on other routes from time to time as the ops plan changes. With Citijet in the same livery, it gets confusing.

Hopefully that will be a thing of the past when the new RJX arrives...

So the new era is approaching for you too!! I have to admit i havn't been on a 146 flight deck yet! so i can not pass jugement on the setup but is the RJX so revolutionary in comparison to the avro?

Pointer

Well if you want to see one, that can be arranged next time we are both in LCY! Prepare to be underwhelmed though!

As far as I know, the RJX flight deck is essentially the same as the RJ, only difference being the EICAS/FADEC (for the new engines). Sad that they couldn't have upgraded it to a "real" EFIS steup.

I have seen the RJX flying from Woodford a few times, it appears to have a lot of performance compared to the 146. The test crew were certainly flinging it about the sky with great enthusiasm.

I guess we'll soon see how it REALLY goes...

Meaning that the RJ's don't have the real thing on board(not the complete setup EFIS)? That's a dissapointment. Our little plane that could has the limited version meaning; "we have the screens and the computers on board but it was to expensive to hook them together" except from the interface we have it all digital with analog display, figure that!

We'll have to figure out a secret handshake if we are going to meet in LCY????

Pointer

Bizarre!

As far as I know, the RJX has the same EFIS fit as later 146-300s. That is two small displays stacked vertically in front of eack pilot, one for attitude and one for nav. All the other stuff like altimeters and ASIs are analogue. No speed tapes or any of that clever stuff.

Maybe we should get some PPRuNe badges for secret LCY meetings...

Raw Data:

Suggest IFR as bloke for badges.......

Interesting thread BTW.

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Live long and Prosper.....

well if there is no awe to do in the electronics dep. on the new RJX there must be a **** of a lot diff in perf.

Pprune badge sounds like a plan except on a random day every one on the tarmac(and in the tower) could be potentialy wearing one!!! i have a feeling that Pprune has a very wide spread followers representation among us "City" folk a.k.a. "The Chosen one's".

Sorry about this but i get carried away on this sometimes.



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Its not an airfield but a landbased Aircraft carrier!

Pointer

Hmmm, perhaps we should come up with a "LCY Pilots" badge or something. It certainly is the most fun you can legally have in an airliner. I love the place. I haven't landed from a 3 degree glideslope in 2 years!

Maybe we can whip up a small batch of badges, or maybe a T-shirt. Any ideas?

For easy identification at LCY, we could put something red on the glareshield... sort of a "PPRuNers here" sign...

I think a cool designed T-shirt will do the trick. Its a bit hard to wear on your days at the office but hey what do we care about uniform regs.

Any artistic tallents out there who can volunteer any design??? my gift for creativeness stops at touchdown in LCY.

Pointer

Lets get an idea of numbers... who is interested?

Tee shirts sound ok.

P.S. The RJs have a speed tape plus the vsi is on the pfd as per std efis.

, RD, doesn't ATC have any objections on you doing steep approaches into EDI? ;)

Maybe we could have LCY stickers made. We could stick them on the side of the a/c under the cockpit windows - one for each landing and departure. A bit like ww2 and putting "kills" on the side of you mk9 or bf109.

Ok, maybe t-shirts then......

Hi Radalt... well, the problem is, I never land at EDI!

Anyone have any T-shirt design ideas?

Personally I think we should have a competition for bad landings.

We could judge it in the tower, and hold up large cards with marks out of 10. Maybe a prize for the worst of the day? (Although it would proabably go to Aer Fungus every day).

ps. anyone caught up by slots yesterday (Thursday evening) many applolgies. Flow were being very Nazistic and refused to co-operate in any way shape or form!

Hey Raw Data, woz it really you I greeted thru the R/T yesterday at 20:36? Pity you were just going, it would have been a pleasure for me to just come over and shake your hand ;)
And talking about counting, well at that very time there was a 2 against 1, so the winner is... :D

For the other guys who were on the freq at the time and to the controller, my sincere apologies for the unprofessional interfering during a busy time, but I just could'nt resist ;)

This would have been a good time to put the PPRune banner out!

Now that RAF has leased C-17 at enormous cost can a C-17 get in and out of LCY?