MCP ALT setting for visual approach in USA
 

More often we are seeing ATIS infos in US airports informing only Visual approaches available. In theory, there is no ILS or RVAV backup or reference. We can certainly use the ILS overlay and references, however for ATC and regulatory purposes, is a VISUAL app only and not based in anything else.

In case of missed approach, ATC should inform immediately an ALT and HDG, however, we must have a preset ALT on the MCP. What to set ?

1. 1500’ above field elevation

2. Published missed a app ALT of a chart you choose

3. MSA

will the other pilot simply agree with any of the above? Ok we can brief, and talk and agree, but this adds more to it.

Does your company have any guideline on this ?

I have asked pilots who operate in the US and the answers are, so far, that no one really cares as ATC will issue instructions, so anything is acceptable on the MCP. I would prefer to have a standard, agreed by all MCP ALT setting.

one day, ATC or Communication problem will delay the instruction, and our ALT preset will be important.

Is there any common understanding or guidance in your operating procedures?

Agreed.

Jep chart will state missed approach instructions including altitude. This is what is preset. Most of the time missed approach instructions will be "rwy hdg climb x thousand" anyways. Rarely ever fly the standard missed.

Read his question. Carefully. Then read it again.

Our policy is to set 1,500 ATDZE unless there are other factors to consider like terrain and such, e.g. LAS.

.1500’
 

thanks for really reading and understanding my question….

and for the reply.

From the mouth of the (paper) tiger

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...section_4.html

​​​​​​​So MSA it is….

You’ll be backing up the visual with an IAP. With the exception of a few months of stupidity at one carrier, every operator has set the missed approach altitude for the IAP. 9/10 times, that’s the altitude ATC will give you on the missed.

You do NOT fly the “published missed” for the backup approach.

———

*The few months of stupidity came from a desk pilot who thought setting 1500ft was smart. Theoretically correct, but practically stupid. If you go around in Boston, you won’t be told to join the pattern and report on base.

Apologies but the question could have been worded better. I am certain many of our colleagues could agree with that(!)

Regarding the answer, 1500ft above airfield elevation (rounded up of course).

You state you wish to prevent a problem arising in the future. However, nothing is ever safe and preventative in this matter.

Let's say you have preset 5000ft MCP ALT.
ATC instructs go around, runway hdg and 3000ft.
In the quick and busy reality of a go around in IMC, you forget to set 3000ft and keep the 5000ft instead.
Guess who's busting an altitude clearance?
Did your procedure save you?

I've been at companies where the SOP was to do all 3 of the things you said.

So far as an FAA-wide "common understanding," no.

No you don't. There are no visual approach charts for 99% of visual approaches in the US. And for the small remaining handful that exist, they don't have missed approach instructions.

A visual approach does NOT have a missed approach procedure. At busy airports, likely the tower will give an altitude, heading and frequency. Pilot judgement on what MCP setting. Small, non busy airport, say KBDL, 1800 pattern altitude would work. JFK maybe 3,000 is better, LAS might be higher

1500 above for us on a visual approach.

It's whatever ATC tells you. That's it.

This is a massive potential accident in waiting as far as I can tell. ATC have no idea how high an aircraft will climb, aircraft have no idea about potential conflicting traffic.

It’s another example of relying on the final layer of defence to avoid a mid air collision. If the FAA had any sense it would legislate an SOP that everyone adheres to so all parties know what will happen in the event of blocked comms during a missed approach following a visual approach.

LD

Unfortunately the US has a bigger problem right now with aviation (not General Aviation, which is a sinking ship of accidents left, right and center).
That very problem is runway incursions!

KPHX has at least 2 published visual approaches and neither has any missed approach procedure. However, all the arrival routes have a lost comms procedure, typically hold at PXR VORTAC at 9,000 ft. Wouldn't ATC expect a lost coms aircraft executing a missed from a visual to follow the lost coms procedure for the arrival route?

https://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/...ANT_VIS25R.pdf
https://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/...VER_VIS25L.pdf

We’re not really talking about lost comms, more a saturated frequency where ATC are unable to issue missed approach instructions although I do get your point. How many crews pre brief the lost comms procedure, and what are the chances of finding it and executing it during a go around?

Why does this forum not have a “like” button?

That’s really all there is to it folks. Especially if you’re based in Europe, you’re not going anywhere in the US where you’ll get anything other than a heading and altitude to fly.

You won’t ever be flying the published missed approach anyway, so no need to overthink it.

Indeed. To that end, it doesn't hurt to ask in advance, especially if the spacing is starting to look tight. Something like "if we have to go around, what would you like us to do?"

^^ same here. In the event we went around very unexpectedly off a visual approach and couldn't get a straight answer out of ATC, we'd very likely follow the standard missed approach for the ILS or something, as it will keep us clear of terrain and other airspace.

Obviously once going missed, you would do whatever ATC tells you. That's not the question. The question is what altitude to set before the approach; and I've never once had ATC tell me that.

I think some people are overthinking it. Set an altitude that you think is reasonable. If they give you something else, set that altitude. If your guess is wrong, you don’t lose any points.

Unless there’s traffic already at the altitude you guessed, then it’s a TCAS or mid air as pilots in the USA are very fond of switching to TA only in the terminal area.

Why is this still going on?
FAA answer plus reference has been provided.

https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/657984-mcp-alt-setting-visual-approach-usa.html#post11609836

What? I've been flying professionally in the US for 20 years and the only time I've seen it done was for visuals into Denver, and I think that's been resolved a long time ago (it's been awhile since I've been there). We do it for single engine ops too, but fortunately I haven't had to see anything like that other than in the simulator. ;)

The only time we had an issue with this was going into PHX, where the published miss had you going to 5000', while ATC would actually only climb you to 3000'. Guys with the local knowledge always set the alerter to 3000', but it eventually ended up in our company notes because so many were getting burned by setting it to the missed approach altitude and blowing through 3000' during the ensuing helmet fire.

Where did you find a published missed for a visual approach at KPHX? Please provide a link to the procedure if you have one.

I'm sorry, I'm wasn't being clear. The published miss for whatever procedure (generally an ILS - don't think I've ever landed on 25R) we used to back up the visual.

What about using MSA? At least that should stop you from CFIT on the go!

I think it may be worthwhile to see what the FAA AIM says about this in 7-4-1



If you’re flying a Boeing or Airbus, you’re not going to an airport where you’ll be told to enter the pattern, so we can ignore that part. That second part is what we’re really going to be concerned with. It simply says “proceed as otherwise instructed”. You’ll get an altitude and heading to fly.

The published missed approach procedure on an IAP doesn’t mean much to ATC either (as I understand it) because they’ll just give you what they need anyway.

There's always going to be traffic at the altitude you set, near a busy airport. As someone mentioned, the only airport where I've ever gone to TA only is Denver, and that note has since been removed from our company pages.

In short, set any altitude you want. There are no wrong answers. I'm yet to come across the situation where it's something other than a whole multiple of 1000, at at least 2000 AGL.

You can set 10,000 for the missed going into ORD, they'll still give you 4000 :)

It’s a Visual approach, I trust you can look out the windows.

Doesn’t mean it’s clear and a million,

Ignore us europeans, we are not trained or allowed to fly anything outside of a magenta line dragging us around by the nose..

(Lights the fuse, steps back to watch fireworks ensue ;)


besides, which Missed will you fly? The one that turns right or left? As opposed to the one ATC wants you to fly?..

Let's go!
I'm glad you can measure the height of the terrain with your eyesight alone.

Visual approach RVR no less than 1/2 mile.
Some Southwest guys (and gals) like to shoot a visual on 2/3 mile RVR alone.

Visual approaches in the US require 3sm visibility. 1/2 sm would be considered low IFR.

Are you sure about that buddy?
Still, a viz of 3nm isn't enough for measuring terrain by eyesight.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap5_section_4.html#$paragraph5-4-23

You can’t fly visual pattern in legal VFR? Probably 2/3 rds of landings in the US are visual approaches and this question often comes up, but I’ve never, ever heard it in the US in 45 years, civil and military. Identify the runway, confirm it, land on it.

I totally agree, and with all your other posts on this thread.

However, it would be nice if there was a published standard heading/altitude for those times that ATC does not "otherwise instruct". I have been in the US for the last 20 years, and this is still a point of discussion, and it really should not be. ATIS advertises visual for a specific runway, and there is no NOTAM that the ILS for that rwy is not available. SOP is to back up the visual with that ILS, and set pattern altitude for the GA.
Was told to GA in BWI due to being too close to preceding traffic. Initially no other instructions were given by tower. Asked 4 times for an altitude, never got an assignment, finally was told to turn south (towards the 1100' towers, 2600' MSA) and contact approach. Approach was very busy, so FO and I agreed we would climb to 2000' before we were able to talk to them. Traffic overhead at 3000'. Obviously there was no plan in place to handle a GA in VMC, and that is not acceptable.
Like you said, ATC is not going to expect us to join the downwind at 1500', so pattern altitude does not apply, and ATC is responsible for providing a safe IFR altitude. So why not publish one?