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Airbus reporting CI
Hi all, In our fleet we have a constant CI. And we are advised not to fiddle with it to aid OTP. The company have said they track misuse of the CI. Just wondering what other parameters would be monitored and accessed by FDM? Things like STARS/SIDS? V speeds? Or is it basically everything inputted into to the FMGC? Regards |
Originally Posted by BoeingDriver99
(Post 10529440)
Hi all, In our fleet we have a constant CI. And we are advised not to fiddle with it to aid OTP. The company have said they track misuse of the CI. Just wondering what other parameters would be monitored and accessed by FDM? Things like STARS/SIDS? V speeds? Or is it basically everything inputted into to the FMGC? Regards A quick check of the FCOM suggests it's 6R, ACARS/PRINT FUNCTION. This brings up the list of automatically sent reports. They're customisable but if you print one you'll be able to see what's sent. (Lazy option - fly at 0.8M) |
Lav Data
Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret
(Post 10529536)
I *think* that the answer to your question is in the data pages of the MCDU. Somewhere in there is the list of automated reports that can be sent by ACARS.
A quick check of the FCOM suggests it's 6R, ACARS/PRINT FUNCTION. This brings up the list of automatically sent reports. They're customisable but if you print one you'll be able to see what's sent. (Lazy option - fly at 0.8M) Previous operator had the normal FOQA collection routine, as well as immediate triggers for certain events.. I believe unstable approach was one of them. Engines stream realtime data too. Anyone flying neos can attest to the constant ACARS data bursts over VHF. - |
There's a new FDM system in the works that is an FDIMU sniffer and can record some 20,000 channels...
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Do they track use of selected speed as well? Seems like your company’s bean counters have to much time on their hands or there are to many bean counters. |
A few guys at my airline are paranoid about changing the CI. They'd rather fly in selected speed for 4 hours. I change it when appropriate. Never heard a peep.
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Airline SOPs also partly depend on their situation i.e. general experience level. Pilots have changed CI and then forgot about it. So they don't encourage any tinkering with CI. But sometimes it can be useful. If you want to reach your cruise level quickly CI of zero will achieve that.
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Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10530303)
Airline SOPs also partly depend on their situation i.e. general experience level. Pilots have changed CI and then forgot about it. So they don't encourage any tinkering with CI. But sometimes it can be useful. If you want to reach your cruise level quickly CI of zero will achieve that.
But from my experience, I find that climbing with vertical speed works better as in CLB mode the aircraft always pitch up and down to maintain the speed due to wind shift. Kinda annoying especially on heavy A321 at high altitude. |
Originally Posted by Pineteam
I find that climbing with vertical speed works better as in CLB mode the aircraft always pitch up and down to maintain the speed due to wind shift. Kinda annoying especially on heavy A321 at high altitude.
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Originally Posted by pineteam
(Post 10530339)
I know Easy jet is using CI 0 for the climb phase to climb at VY speed. But from my experience, I find that climbing with vertical speed works better as in CLB mode the aircraft always pitch up and down to maintain the speed due to wind shift. Kinda annoying especially on heavy A321 at high altitude. |
I find that climbing with vertical speed works better as in CLB mode the aircraft always pitch up and down to maintain the speed due to wind shift. |
Using VS for sustained period in climb can't be a
good idea because climb performance depends on certain speed or M. To maintain that with VS you will have to keep changing the VS. No manufacturer recommends that. In the very old B747 classics we didn't have mach mode so we kept tinkering with VS. no need to go back to Stone age. |
Originally Posted by Fathom
Just need to keep an appropriate VS selected so the thrust doesn’t reduce!
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Ok let’s be clear: There is absolutely no restrictions to use vertical speed during climb by Airbus. As someone above said, just make sure your speed target is high to avoid your engine to spool down. Classic rookie mistake is to forget to wind up the speed before selecting vertical speed. My company has no restrictions to use vertical speed in climb cause there is no reason to unless you are a bot. They allow us to fly raw data where the workload is much higher so using vertical speed with AP is nothing. Only some weak crews don’t like it cause they don’t know the systems and are scared that the speed will drop too much LOL. Those are the same guys who never hand fly the planes cause of the QAR/FDM paranoia. Just monitor your PFD and adjust your vertical speed accordingly. You are paid to do that and it’s not really an extra work load if you set a reasonable vertical speed you don’t even need to adjust it and you will reach your cruising altitude faster than CLB mode with CI 0 if you do it well. Very useful when you have a Cruise altitude requirement by ATC and you are heavy. Keeping a constant vertical speed makes also ATC happy as in CLB mode when vertical speed drop too much they think you are leveling off and might call your attention. Plus it gives you very accurate climb predictions if requested by atc. Eg climbing at 500 feet/min and 2000 feet to reach cruising altitude, then you know you will reach you cruising level in 4 min. Another bonus if you have a TCAS RA, and you failed to switch off both FDs; well guess what you are already in speed mode so you are safe! It’s a fantastic mode and it’s a shame that some pilots are reluctant to use it. If your airline does not authorize you to use vertical speed mode in climb then I feel sorry for you guys. All pilots using vertical mode on Airbus will acknowledge it’s useful and fun to use. Peace. |
Pineteam
There is absolutely no restrictions to use vertical speed during climb by Airbus. |
Originally Posted by pineteam
(Post 10530694)
Ok let’s be clear: There is absolutely no restrictions to use vertical speed during climb by Airbus. As someone above said, just make sure your speed target is high to avoid your engine to spool down. Classic rookie mistake is to forget to wind up the speed before selecting vertical speed. My company has no restrictions to use vertical speed in climb cause there is no reason to unless you are a bot. They allow us to fly raw data where the workload is much higher so using vertical speed with AP is nothing. Only some weak crews don’t like it cause they don’t know the systems and are scared that the speed will drop too much LOL. Those are the same guys who never hand fly the planes cause of the QAR/FDM paranoia. Just monitor your PFD and adjust your vertical speed accordingly. You are paid to do that and it’s not really an extra work load if you set a reasonable vertical speed you don’t even need to adjust it and you will reach your cruising altitude faster than CLB mode with CI 0 if you do it well. Very useful when you have a Cruise altitude requirement by ATC and you are heavy. Keeping a constant vertical speed makes also ATC happy as in CLB mode when vertical speed drop too much they think you are leveling off and might call your attention. Plus it gives you very accurate climb predictions if requested by atc. Eg climbing at 500 feet/min and 2000 feet to reach cruising altitude, then you know you will reach you cruising level in 4 min. Another bonus if you have a TCAS RA, and you failed to switch off both FDs; well guess what you are already in speed mode so you are safe! It’s a fantastic mode and it’s a shame that some pilots are reluctant to use it. If your airline does not authorize you to use vertical speed mode in climb then I feel sorry for you guys. All pilots using vertical mode on Airbus will acknowledge it’s useful and fun to use. Peace. |
Originally Posted by pineteam
(Post 10530694)
Ok let’s be clear: There is absolutely no restrictions to use vertical speed during climb by Airbus. As someone above said, just make sure your speed target is high to avoid your engine to spool down. Classic rookie mistake is to forget to wind up the speed before selecting vertical speed. My company has no restrictions to use vertical speed in climb cause there is no reason to unless you are a bot. They allow us to fly raw data where the workload is much higher so using vertical speed with AP is nothing. Only some weak crews don’t like it cause they don’t know the systems and are scared that the speed will drop too much LOL. Those are the same guys who never hand fly the planes cause of the QAR/FDM paranoia. Just monitor your PFD and adjust your vertical speed accordingly. You are paid to do that and it’s not really an extra work load if you set a reasonable vertical speed you don’t even need to adjust it and you will reach your cruising altitude faster than CLB mode with CI 0 if you do it well. Very useful when you have a Cruise altitude requirement by ATC and you are heavy. Keeping a constant vertical speed makes also ATC happy as in CLB mode when vertical speed drop too much they think you are leveling off and might call your attention. Plus it gives you very accurate climb predictions if requested by atc. Eg climbing at 500 feet/min and 2000 feet to reach cruising altitude, then you know you will reach you cruising level in 4 min. Another bonus if you have a TCAS RA, and you failed to switch off both FDs; well guess what you are already in speed mode so you are safe! It’s a fantastic mode and it’s a shame that some pilots are reluctant to use it. If your airline does not authorize you to use vertical speed mode in climb then I feel sorry for you guys. All pilots using vertical mode on Airbus will acknowledge it’s useful and fun to use. Peace. |
To be clear, there's nothing wrong with using VS to climb. I've done it in the past, and will likely do it in the future. I just think that the technique mentioned above seems like it'd be a lot easier if you just turned off the AT.
I also disagree with the earlier poster who said that VS is smoother than CLB. That may be a holdover from another type, but my understanding from the latest Safety First article is that the airspeed info is filtered before being sent to the AP, so the pitch response is nice and smooth, even in bumpy air. |
I have no beef in this, but how can you reach cruise altitude faster with VS than CI=0 (assuming that is best rate of climb)? Unless you're zooming the last bit. |
Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10530788)
I've seen that technique. Always struck me as odd. Why not just turn off the AT?
Kind of like how people will leave the FD up when they obviously have no intention of following it, (and there is no FD mode that will make it track what they intend to do) yet it just... feels wrong to turn off. |
Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10530118)
A few guys at my airline are paranoid about changing the CI. They'd rather fly in selected speed for 4 hours. I change it when appropriate. Never heard a peep.
Our SOP allows us to manage CI (16-120) to achieve an on time arrival. CI 0 is used if fuel is the over riding concern. Airbus reminds us to “SET MANAGED SPEED” at every phase of flight change so operating in SEL seems odd coming from a training department. If one is crossing the pond at a fixed MACH I get flying selected. In every other situation I don’t understand some companies resistance to employing the aircraft a designed. I guess that makes the world interesting. |
Originally Posted by Vessbot
(Post 10530908)
From an outsider's perspective (non Airbus and non autothrottle pilot), I'd guess "taboo." That uncomfortable feeling in the back of your mind that doing the thing, in light of how it's not usually done, especially with someone else watching, feels wrong to do as if it's against a rule even though no such rule exists (nor is it dictated by any considered prudence.... or even where prudence would say that it's actively counterproductive)
Kind of like how people will leave the FD up when they obviously have no intention of following it, (and there is no FD mode that will make it track what they intend to do) yet it just... feels wrong to turn off. |
. I just think that the technique mentioned above seems like it'd be a lot easier if you just turned off the AT. I also disagree with the earlier poster who said that VS is smoother than CLB. That may be a holdover from another type, but my understanding from the latest Safety First article is that the airspeed info is filtered before being sent to the AP, so the pitch response is nice and smooth, even in bumpy air. |
The amount of home made procedures You can read on this thread is quite scary. |
Sonicbum it’s just pilot techniques. As long as your company allows you and it’s not against the manufacturer recommandations where is the issue. Of course you could do the whole flight in managed and autoland. That’s the safest and easiest way.. But we are pilots aren’t we? Saying that I don’t really think keeping A/Thr off is a good idea as you have no protection against overspeed. It’s easier to just wind up the speed target few knots below Vmax; At least the engines will spool down if you inadvertently fly too fast. |
Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10531006)
Check airman, as you can see one person feels VS is better than Climb, you feel it will be even better with ATHR off. It doesn't end there. The tinkering will carry on. But manufacturer who designed the aircraft have more qualified people what do they feel is the most important. If you don't like what they want you to do tell them. As you mentioned about filtering of speed there was no way of knowing that for a line pilot unless the manufacturer told them. So line pilots should follow recommended procedures and not develop their own. Definitely not in Airbus. If you feel something doesn't work or you have better idea than Airbus discuss with them. Toulouse oversees everything from Argentina to Korea(longer way). When someone wants to do it differently in Korea may be someone already had an incident doing it in Argentina. So let them tell you. Every tinkering may not be as dangerous as QZ8501 but better be safe than sorry. There are climb speeds no climb vertical speeds. VS can definitely be used as a short term intervention for whatever but not as a standard practice.
My second point about the filtering was just to point out that the common argument of "OP CLB isn't smooth" is not really true on an A320. I flew an airplane where the equivalent of OP CLB could really get twitchy in bumpy air, but the Airbus AP is a fair bit more sophisticated than that AP. Personally, I stick to OP CLB and CLB. Easy, smooth, and safe. The odd time it levels off in a 321, I haven't had ATC complain (they're well aware of our climb performance when heavy), and temporarily reducing the mach is my preferred technique. |
Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10531298)
temporarily reducing the mach is my preferred technique.
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Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10530767)
Nowadays VS is generally used in RVSM towards last few thousand to prevent TCAS.
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I think you missed the points I was trying to make |
Originally Posted by sonicbum
(Post 10530450)
I am sure Your airline is very happy with You using V/S rather than CLB.
The A340 IMHO is kind of a rollercoaster getting close to max, even opt alt. Chasing speed by large pitch movements. V/S of, let's say 500 ft/min, serves the problem. And yes, my airline likes it;) |
Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10531442)
No! I didn't. I am against the whole concept of doing something not written in the book whether pineteam way or your suggested way. All it takes to climb is single push or pull on the button. No need to find a complicated way. The system is supposed to maintaine the speed by varying the pitch and it does so.
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10531549)
My suggested way is with OP CLB. What I'm saying is IF i opted to maintain a specific VS with climb thrust, I'd do it with the AT off. I wouldn't employ pineteam's technique, but it's not against SOP (at my company) and isn't inherently unsafe. I can't criticize him any more than I can criticize somebody for intercepting a localizer in NAV.
In my outfit it's a no no to intercept the LOC in NAV. |
Originally Posted by gearlever
(Post 10531556)
Interesting.
In my outfit it's a no no to intercept the LOC in NAV. |
Some great information and opinions on here, thanks. FWIW in our lot, above FL300 we must use V/S in the climb... |
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Originally Posted by BoeingDriver99
(Post 10531687)
Some great information and opinions on here, thanks. FWIW in our lot, above FL300 we must use V/S in the climb... |
Ha! What's the reasoning behind that? How do you deal with the fuzzy signal far out? TRK mode? |
Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10531549)
My suggested way is with OP CLB. What I'm saying is IF i opted to maintain a specific VS with climb thrust, I'd do it with the AT off. I wouldn't employ pineteam's technique, but it's not against SOP (at my company) and isn't inherently unsafe. I can't criticize him any more than I can criticize somebody for intercepting a localizer in NAV.
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All this aside, a small part of me died when someone described an autopilot mode as more "fun" than others
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Hahaha! I know right! It’s unacceptable to have fun flying nowadays! Flying the NEO today!! Woop woop!! Fun alert!! xD Ok nuff off topic for me! CI 25 for us. They don’t monitor it or at least they don’t care if we play with it. I never change it except temporary to check CI 0 to know the VY speed. I’m flying the speed I’m getting paid for cause I’m a good professional:p |
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