.is it Toncontin International?

An A320 instructor would not say this. Also, if you are an A320 pilot or instructor, then all I have learnt on the A320 is wrong and does not work?
Yeh, right - even if I was wrong, which I am not, therer would have been a mild adjustment resulting in the same result. Also - (a need to tell?) 20` is very much on the low side? - the operative words here are `very much`
as opposed to TOO LOW!!


50`
30` Hold att, pressurise the sidestick,------------------eyes to the end of the rnwy
20` pitch up approx 2 degrees, judged visually!
Retard, when the old man says so, when the old man says so.

- it works,

fly it on as it WILL float very easily.

@natstrackalpha, maybe you want to study the FCTM a bit more then, because airbus certainly disagrees with you.

NO-170 flare
And FCTM NO-160 approach procedure
In fact during a manual approach the height at which the thrust levers are closed is a judgement based on environmental conditions. Reflected in the FCTM by:
@johnsmith
That is also evidently BS!!!The simple fact is that the airbus will ALWAYS call retard, even if the levers are already in idle.

@bubbers44

You are being too harsh on 300 hour guys. Most of them are very talented indeed. It's is mostly the old "experienced" skippers that want them to use the A/P, not the younger captains that started themselves as 300hr guys. You have no idea what you are talking about!

The problem with their experience levels is that they quickly loose the picture. But the again I have seen equally bad performance from guys with 5000+ hrs as well, the so-called career FO's. They really don't put incapable guys in the LHS in europe.

737Jock

Jock, me old chukka and anyone else too who is quoting the FTM or FCOM.

I am a mere potato, what do I know - nothing!

In Europe, as with anywhere else, if you have a R/H seat man or woman with 300 hours or 5,000 hours, and they are not up to the performance (due to crap training, say) then train the b-----s up! Thats what you are there for. If you have not got the time to do that, then mark `em down and send them back for training.

Equal bs, according to you - perhaps. However, the fact - (not the bloody fcom) the fact remains that 20` is a good height to pitch up 2 degrees, judged visually, eyes to the end of the runway.

Back to the Old Man: Closing the thrust levers when he says "retard" is not going to do anyone wrong. Watch the a/p doing it and see what `it` does (somebody mentioned this observing of the a/p and emulating that - it is very good advice!)

You can get all creative and thoughtful closing the thrust levers at 50` say, some do, some do, it depends on the conditions, wind, weight and a whole number of WAT considerations. the capital of Mongolia in the summer - to Manston in the winter . . . ?

I still say, after having tried it, manually, again and again
50`
30` maintain the att (pressurise the sidestick)
flare by
20` with, a 2 deg nose pitch up - judged visually.

Retard, when the old man says so - and hey, do you know what, it lands very nicely.

When we get as professionally skillful as your good self then, there may well be variations on a theme and we can retard at different times - and hope we get the same result as this one, which, like it or not, works, time and time again. I`ve done it manually, with A/P followed by A/P disc, done it Raw Data and still it works, so what do I say, "try this as I believe it is the best proven and tried method, but don`t try this because 737Jock thinks its bull**** - it works and is 100% effective, but 737Jock has issues with it". You are not flying a B737 by any chance are you Jock? That is a different kettle of fish, sir.

Not disputing the FCTM for one minute - except `airbus` who built the thing, don`t always get it right - like in the case of not resolving issues such as DC ESS Failure, no mention of how to restore comms there - neither on ECAM nor in the QRH . . .? Are we to suppose then that the ensuent loss of comms are to be lived with, or do we restore comms despite the fact that it is not written anywhere how to do it?

Overall airbus are most adept and professional at building lovely aeroplanes which fly really well and are as safe as they ever can be, using the highest of modern technology, how cool is that!

Tried and trusted methods of how to control the dang thang as it is different from conventional aircraft, seemingly by rote, seemingly by numbers, will get you though marvellously, until that time when the wings sprout from your shoulders, if that is at all possible, flying a whole bunch of computers and fly-by-wire divorcing the `feel` from the pilot to the outside air flow.

:rolleyes:sake!

It has been some time and things may have changed but when I transitioned to the A-320 (1991) there was one captain who had a reputation for consistently making the best landings - we were all pretty new to the Bus then. One very observant F/O picked up on the fact that he NEVER heard the RETARD call when this gentleman was at the controls.

I'm flying the A319, so you might want to adapt that to your particular aircraft.
This is what I do most of the times, some times I'll adapt it due to external factors obviously.
I will retard the throttle at 30, then I'll start my flare at 30 right away if LW is above 55 tons, otherwise I'll wait for 20ft.
Then once you start your flare, just pitch up slightly and look all the way down the rwy and let the aircraft slooooowly loose altitude.
Problem with me initially was that I didn't look down the runway, I looked inside wayyyy to much and transitioned outside at the last time. I had my fair share of booms but my landings significantly improved once I started looking way more outside, just like I used to be doing on the skyhawk ;).
If you balloon, try to release sidestick pressure, but do not try to push the sidestick forward, don't try to increase the pitch either.

Idle Thrust
 

Sorry, but I've flew A320s back in '95 for 9 yrs and again in 2010 and they have ALWAYS called "Retard, Retard" regardless of TL position.

Just read John Smiths post, maybe I'm wrong. So much for memory!

737 jock, when I started in the 737 I had 5500 hrs because that was required. When I became a captain my FO needed 5,000 hrs. so we didn't run a flight school as an airline, we really knew how to fly a B737 as captain on our first day as FO. Things are different now and some people think 300 hr pilots are totally qualified to fly an airliner with no supervision. You decide.

As for the old timers wanting them to use the autopilot, I probably would too knowing how they would hand fly it. The new captains are probably still wobbling around getting it on the ground so don't notice.

Very good discussion, many fascinating insights...I am now very retired, but flew the whole family for some years, and reading all the posts, and remembering my experience, I wonder if erverybody uses, or is ordered to use the autothrottle? I used it of course when necessary (autoland, climb, cruise, but if the approach was CAT 1 or better , I always had it OFF at the beginning of the approach. And I was not the only one! Speed fluctuating a little with gusts etc... but once you have settled with the right N1, you seldom need to change it during your descent. Same thing with flight director bars...very dangerous things at times (see the Rio Paris accident)...As for the landing itself, you said it all...I just remember (320) that it is the only plane where I often pushed slightly on the stick to land it (when coming very close to the ground). Memories...

You really are showing your age bubbers44!

Either your airline changed something or you need to pay better attention johnsmith:

Rio de Janeiro to Sao Paulo ENTIRE FLIGHT IN ENGLISH (43 minutes) - YouTube

In this case thrust levers are fully closed by 30ft! The airbus will call RETARD at 20ft.

FCOM:

At least you won't hear "Retard" from him... :)

No copilot or computer has called me a retard yet. I guess that is in the new stuff. Does it say retard when you make a bad landing too? You are right though, they made me quit playing this game at 60 because of old age. Now pilots are smart enough to fly until 65.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

:ok:

NARVAL
 

NARVAL bon soir, that is so cool . . . I found that if I set thrust at 180kts say, then flap1 (+/-gear) will bring me down to `S` speed followed by flaps 2 with no (or very little) thrust adjustment like a constant power approach technique.

Natstrackalpha, check the video I posted and the fcom! The airbus does say Retard even when the thrust levers are already closed at 20ft.

Jock - so what? You are now arguing in my favour! I never disputed about the old man saying retard - you meant somebody else, surely?

You need somebody who is arguing that the lil `ol man won`t say anything.

However, now we are here - again - since when, like, when, was it necessary for a pilot to get a retard call anyway - yea lo that I always adhere to it, it is sort of comforting. . . . .

My point - (sigh) this time (sigh again) is - quite frankly, by the time one gets to an A320 - if one cannot land a bloody aeroplane, with or without a voice then one should not be there flying the bloody thang in the first place, after many years of experience, you then move on up. For those young `uns who have gone through a sort of integrated course, and have made it to an airline with one of the more direct routes to the right hand seat - have had to crack it in the sim and in the aeroplane too- they `aint gonna let a total num num loose on a $50,000,000 jet -

Everybody on here can land, successfully - unless we are all ghosts from, the past!!! Giving tips on landing to somebody who is on base training or ZFT is one thing. Debating like a load of politicians is pointless and avoids the objective.

Somebody also PM`d me - in short don`t bother! some do things the right way - others do things the wrong way, if your company does it your way then thats up to your SOPs and our SOPs dictate the best way, whether its switching off an APU :ugh:! ! ! ! or landing - it works, like, this, gottit? Good, now you try it, well done! Now lets move onto somethingelse.

Apart from the odd g-bs--te, an experienced Captain in the Left seat has loads more years of experience and has had to endure deep training courses and has probably been an instructor and has flown about three kinds of airliners again and again for a number of years.

You are just trying to wind me up - or you are inebriated or just thick.

One f---g turtle neck who knew jack, actually tried to tell me to delete the EO immediately after an engine fail - in short, either do it properly or f--- o--. There are plenty of young students who fly really well after good quality training, and they really want to learn and really want to get it right - that is why they ask us. It is up to us to sift the tot:mad:kers from the gen studes/FOs and not be led into childish debate by the former.

You do realise your posts are almost unreadable natstrackalpha? I don't know why you are applauding clear BS in post 98, but that led me to believe you think that the airbus does not call retard in some cases.
I'm not argueing in anyone's favour nor to undermine anybody. This thread is full of BS that is more a reflection of peoples opinions rather then factual information.

In general:
1. According to airbus the pilot judges when to close the thrust, not when "the ol man says"
2. The callout is only a reminder not a command during manual flight.
3. The airbus will ALWAYS call retard
Source: a320 manuals

I'm not sure how anyone's way can be better then what the manufacturer says in their certified manuals about how it is done. It would be bad training to teach anything other then what the manufacturer says.
A. It would leave you open to a whole range of nastiness when something goes wrong.
B. The manufacturer has more experience with their aircraft then you will ever be able to get in your career.

When somebody asks for advice on here I'm surprised to see so much BS, that can easily be disproven by opening the FCOM/FCTM.
Closing the thrust when the ol man says might work 9 out of 10 times, but we are trying to score 10 out of 10 aren't we? The flare and closing thrust is a judgement, and getting it wrong a few times does more for learning then 1 solution for everything advice. But what works even better is manual thrust.

Yes I fly a320 and I have flown 737's.

Well the autopilot starts reducing the thrust at 30ft RA, not at 20! So how does that relate to the old man? It doesn't.

got it...........ok, ok.

Not trying to make a point anymore, see link for interest only.

From flightglobal

Enhanced A320 logic to warn pilots of throttle retard oversight

I'll try this one more time ... I used to be a member of this forum for a very long time ... but due to circumstances beyond my control, I've been unable to participate for quite some time now ... so ... and at the risk of sounding overly borning, I'm going to repost one of my earlier posts that some may consider goes to the heart of this specific question:

I know just how much everyone on this forum likes to have someone come along and “tell them” how it’s to be done. So, for those of you here who are older than ½ of my age – stop reading and go on down to the next post. OK, maybe you don’t know my age, but I was around when dirt was invented – that should give you an approximation. But, for you folks who are less than ½ of my age, listen up – this may be important to you, and, after a little practice, you just may be able to teach those guys who have now stopped reading how to really land an airplane. This procedure is applicable to every airplane from a C-152 to a B-747 (I haven’t flown a B-52 or the A-380, but I’ll bet it works there, too) – it also works in calm conditions, head winds, tail winds, cross winds, CAVU conditions, snow, ice, rain, simple IMC conditions, and even FLIR-aided IMC conditions.

As almost all of the folks above have indicated – the last portion of the final approach should be flown in the configuration in which you plan to land, and flown at a constant speed of 1.3 Vs (computed in that configuration), plus ½ of the steady state wind (not to exceed an additive of 20 knots) plus all of the gust factor. I personally believe that this steady-state condition should be established at 1000 feet AGL, but I know that some operations allow this altitude to be lower – but in the passenger revenue world I’m not aware of any that are below 500 feet AGL.

You should cross the runway threshold at what ever is the minimum threshold crossing height – for most transport category airplanes this should be about 50 feet. And at that point you should have been able to bleed off the airspeed additives you’ve been holding for steady-state wind (only the steady-state wind additives) – you’ll still have the 1.3 Vs plus all the gust factor. This will require you to continue to fly the airplane to the runway. Some operators recommend that you begin to reduce power at this point – if that is the procedure you’ve been taught, fine – but keep the airspeed constant until you begin the flare (that may mean pushing the nose over a bit – hopefully it will only require nose down pressure and not nose down movement. The point to which you should be flying at this point (the “aim” point – that point that doesn’t move up or down in the windscreen) is a point on the runway surface about 2/3 of the way between the threshold and the fixed distance markers (for the C-150 guys, this aim point should be the numbers themselves and for the B-747 guys, the aim point should be the fixed distance markers or just beyond).

OK, now for the flare. The question that always comes up is, “what attitude do I flare to?” When you start to flare is critical. You will want to reach your flare attitude with the main wheels something between 1 and 5 feet from the runway surface (1 foot or so for the C-152 guys and 5 feet for the B-747 guys … yes, I know how difficult it is to imagine the mains at 5 feet above the runway from the B-747 cockpit – but remember, you’re good at your job! – Make it 5 feet!) The change in the attitude from when you initiate the flare to reaching the flare attitude should take just about 3 seconds (no less than 2 for you C-150 guys and no more than 4 for you B-747 guys) and you should wind up with the main wheels “just off the runway surface. The speed you should have when you reach the flare attitude should be just below what you carried from the threshold to this point – between 5 and 15 knots – the smaller number for the smaller airplanes and the larger number for the larger airplanes. The attitude should be just exactly what it would take to maintain level flight from this point all the way down the runway. What I’d have you practice would be, “do not climb, do not descend, do not accelerate, do not decelerate; we’ll go around at the end of the runway.” I’d also have you mentally locate the position on the belly of the airplane exactly between the main gear (the body gear for you B-747 guys) and I’d tell you to fly down the runway (no climb, no descent, no faster, no slower) with that point on the belly of the airplane exactly over the runway centerline – and to do that with whatever crab angle you need to do it. Of course you’d have to add a bit of power – since you had the throttles back but this is OK for practice.

I’d have you do this exercise as many times as was necessary to get you comfortable with when to initiate the flare, how quickly to flare, and to what attitude you need to stop the flare with the main gear just off the runway surface. The key here, getting you to recognize when to start the flare and how quickly to flare, is to get you to recognize what attitude to reach at the end of the flare – THAT attitude is called the LEVEL FLIGHT ATTITUDE.

Once you’ve got it, as you begin the flare, you begin the throttle reduction. The idea is to get the throttles to the idle position as the mains touch the runway. As you pull the throttles back, you will notice the nose getting heavier – don’t let it move down. Increase the back pressure on the elevator controls – not to move the nose up – rather to just keep it from moving down. Over that 3 seconds, the airspeed continues to decelerate, while the airplane continues to descend, going from just above the runway to ON the runway. Level Flight Attitude is the attitude from which you want to land the airplane. Your touchdown should be firm but not hard, the kinetic energy of the airplane should be moving in the right direction, the nose should be able to be flown to the runway rather quickly as it is not unnecessarily high to arrest a high sink rate. You should be over the center of the runway, with the controls already properly positioned for the landing run.

If you had been carrying a crab angle to counter a crosswind, the crab should be removed in exactly the same time as the flare takes – 3 seconds. The pressure applied to the rudder pedal to pressure the nose around to line up with the centerline of the runway should start with the back pressure on the control column to flare. As you probably know, this may take some “into-the-wind” aileron to counter the tendency of the forward sweeping wing to rise … but, unless the wind is quite strong, you won’t be in the air long enough to have the wind blow you downwind off the centerline. Of course, if the wind IS quite strong, you may have to add a bit more aileron to slightly (very slightly) dip the wing tip in the up-wind direction.

I offer just one caveat. If you discuss this with your chief pilot or fleet captain and they absolutely forbid you to fly and land this way – pay attention to your company and forget what I’ve said. This is not an attempt to thwart the way your company procedures require you to operate. If this is different from the way you normally approach and land, I do not recommend that you do it without everyone in the cockpit knowing what you are going to do, no matter what position you are flying – if you can swing it, I’d recommend practicing it in the simulator with someone who knows what they are doing. I think you’ll be surprised at how easy this becomes, and how consistent your landings will become as well – night, day, rain, snow, clear, no matter. Consistent landings are good things to cultivate. Also, if you try this and just simply think it is the epitome of wrong-headedness, let me know and I’ll buy you a beer. However, if you think it is the correct way to land, let me know and I’ll buy you two!

737Jock: I think you will find that if the Thrust Levers are quickly closed prior to the RA trigger point then you will NOT get a "Retard" call. Works for me these last 17 years!

One old thread I recall yonks ago asked for 737 landing advice - total 1 1/2 pages.

This thread asks for landing advice on the 320 suck-squirt....6 PAGES so far!

I have a bet going with a 727 mate of mine that this thread will reach at least 10
full pages or until the wheel is fully reinvented.

No, you are right - it doesn`t. (after revision) I was wrong. the thrust levers are closed at 30` (subject to conditions)

..also, to flare by 20` not at 20` (subject to conditions) (however I got away with it so far, but like you said, the objective is to nail it 10/10, not 9/10, which is what I am going to do) -

AirRabbit`s post was well cool I thought, so were your comments, much appreciated.:ok:

The last time I checked, an airplane was an airplane. They all use the same principles and comply with the same aerodynamic rules. The difference between the A320 and the B737 is the amount of electrons to which pilots (albeit because of the engineers involved) have abdicated their decision making abilities. As I am able to recognize from my somewhat limited experience in flying the Airbus Family of airplanes, we still have a collection of parts and pieces (making up the airframe) that remain subject to the same forces and results that the air through which it travels demands. Yes, there are some electrons whose duty it is to prevent you (the pilot) from doing things that are not authorized in that electron's programming ... like bringing (or leaving) the engines in an idle thrust position (particularly when getting close to the ground and getting the nose to an attitude not acceptable to those electrons' programming) ... or continuing to raise the nose to a higher angle of attack that is also beyond the level of acceptability programmed into those "electron" memory banks (as Capt Sullenburger began to recognize at the very end of his "miracle landing" on the Hudson River). However, with those notable exceptions, the A320 can land, and, in my not-so-humble-opinion, should be landed, in exactly the same way as any other airplane. I know it can be done because I've done it, more than a few times, in a rather wide variety of conditions, weights, and specific Airbus equipment types. It comes back to the point that the pilot is (or at least SHOULD BE) in command of the airplane. Airbus has not taken that issue out of consideration ... they've simply made the boundaries within which the pilot remains in command, a bit smaller ... and, some would say too much so ... but I'm not intending to post a criticism of Airbus or their very fine equipment. If the pilot knows his/her equipment, and knows the boundaries of where his/her exercise of command authority over that equipment starts and stops, I'll be a "happy camper" regardless of the manufacturer of that equipment. Therefore - I'll stand by my previous post and again point out that the landing attitude is the "level flight" attitude, and should occur at an airspeed that is somewhat below (the exact number is not "specific" and is deliberately variable to allow the pilot to make adjustments when necessary) a margin of 30% above the projected aerodynamic stall airspeed for the configuration, weight, and location (leaving in place the wind gust factor should any exist - and that only for safety purposes), on the center-line of the runway, tracking to remain on that centerline, and should occur at a point between the threshold and not further down the runway than 3000 feet or 1/3 of the runway available, which ever is shorter. This only becomes a "real" issue when landing on runways less than 9000 feet (where these two distance maximums are equal) and provides specifics to improve the probability of NOT departing the end of the runway during the landing roll-out. I'll say it again ... an airplane is an airplane.

Correct. If status=retracted = tailstrike! :cool:

There's our buddy NATSTRACKALPHA awakening from his 3 month hibernation at Thule BGTL Greenland...Reminds me of a reggaee song..."Stir It Up"....

Well, I learn something every day...

Coriolus? :confused:

Seriously? How much does the pitch increase with a wind shift? Half a pitch? A third of a degree? 1/8? 20,000+ hrs, two crosswind landings, and neither one had a noticeable pitch up.

Based on my experience it's the 'marking with a laser and cutting with an axe' detail. In other words, more nonsense that some new guy will get confused about, worry about, or get questioned about.

FBW Steel Variants.
 

Can anyone explain to an old codger who's only ever flown steel FBW, why does one design and certificate a public transport aircraft which changes its handling qualities @ 50' radio and starts to LOWER the pitch @ 30' radio, just when the evolved baboon (we're all one of those!) who's driving, is trying to alight in a fairly precise manner on the tarmac??!!

No wonder the OP has asked the question, how do I land this bl**dy thing?

:ugh:

You guys are over-thinking this thing.

You don't notice any of those changes at all. Land the airplane like you would any other airplane - using your aviator skills. It works just fine and is very intuitive.

All airplanes land about the same. No need to sort them out. If you have a crosswind just add a few knots because you need some lift to counteract the slip you are in to make the wheels roll straight down the runway. Why land in a crab and look like a student pilot? Try that in a tail dragger some day.

Some a/c are designed to land in a crab. Most aren't. Fly them as recommended. Airbus and Boeing recommend cross-controlled landings.

Isn't that hard on the main landing gear tires landing in a skidding situation? Why would you do that? Try that in a DC3. Guess that is not a problem any more, is it?

Some aircraft, because of the engines, won't let you bank into the wind so you're really limited as to how much bank angle you can put into the upwind side.

Airbus does a decrab, or kick out, where you flare and add downwind rudder. Hopefully, you're not holding it off to where drift becomes an issue.

No Boeing has this problem of landing straight. Who makes an airplane that you have to land in a crab?

Boeing.

Don't they recommend for the 737 landing with a crab in winds of about 20kts or more with more than 15 degrees of flaps?

From the Boeing 747 Flight Crew Training Manual:

"It is not necessary to eliminate the crosswind crab angle prior to touchdown on wet runways. Allowing the airplane to touch down without removing the crab angle will reduce drift toward the downwind side of the runway".

And as you can see by this vid, you can land perfectly well in a crab. And some aircraft, especially those with very low nacelles (737) or engines that are far outboard (747) will sometimes require you to land in a crab.

Crosswinds - Video