Inside view
 

If you want you can see an approach flown all manual here,

Airbus 320 AP/FD/A-THR OFF Approach - YouTube!

Around 3:40 is the A/C at 500 feet.. Runway somewhat rural though...:mad:

PantLoad

Here is the bit from FCOM DSC 27-20-10 Normal Law - Pitch Control - Flare Mode.

"The system memorizes the attitude at 50 ft, and that attitude becomes the initial reference for pitch attitude control. As the aircraft descends through 30ft, the system begins to reduce the pitch attitude, reducing it to 2deg nose down over a period of 8 s."

If it was "by" 2deg over 8 seconds, why would the system bother to memorize the pitch attitude at 50'?
TP

It's really important to learn where the runway/aiming point should be in your window. So when it's nice weather look predominantly OUTSIDE and quickly scan inside. Initially let the autopilot do the work but looking outside during the approach will eventually give you a feel to what it should look like.
Once you have this picture you can correct deviations faster than the flightdirector can tell you and you actually follow that instruction.

During approach (fully configured and on speed) the aiming point will not move in the window until the flare, offcourse the runway dimension changes but the aiming point stays in the same position.
So when you disconnect the AP, keep the aiming point in the same position in the window. This should ensure your flightpath is stable and help you cope with turbulence and other nasty destabilizing effects mother nature throws at us.

Coming through 200ft you start to scan between horizon, aiming point (both outside) and offcourse inside your instruments. As you descend your scan shifts from predominantly aiming point to predominantly the horizon (end of runway). This helps to judge your sinkrate.

Again you should always do this, autoland, pilot monitoring, pilot flying. This will again build your picture of what your sinkrate should look like.

Then follow the rest of the advice. When I make a banger I can usually trace it back to focussing too much on the aiming point in the later stages.

Just read the manuals. The FCOM excerpt quoted by TP above has recently been amended to better accord with the FCTM entry NO 170 LANDING - FLARE. Read that and don't listen to "this works for me..." advice.
mcdhu

Close your eyes, when the guy next to you starts screaming ,Flare:ugh:

C2 had the next guy do exactly that on my line check!

About chasing FD's. If you get the chance in either sim or during line flight. Try an approach with AP, FD off and just the bird and use the Papi. I found visual approaches to serve for a much more stable approach during my line training. Always found with FD's on, I was chasing them to no end and de stabilising myself.

As advice give here, at 30' I do a small check and start bringing power back. At 20' I commence the flare which is in a sense, holding the attitude. If you flare high then release some pressure on the stick.

On the 321, I add 5' to the flare.

Oops, TyroPicard, you're absolutely right!!!
 

Oops, you're absolutely right! My mistake.

The FCTM words it differently.....

My mistake, Sorry.

Fly safe,

PantLoad

Just a quick update on what technique yesterday's captain suggested and insisted I use.
Seems like every cpt wants his own thing. :ugh:

So he suggested I memorize the numbers rather than flying fully by the seat of the pants initially.
Basically to cut power at 30, start to hold you attitude to break the ROD, and finally flare at 20.
Worked well on the first leg, on my second leg I ended up floating a bit, but touched down nicely soon as I let go a bit.


He said it works like a charm all the time, and keeps you on the safe side...

30' pause..chop...flare

Worked out 98.5% of the time for me when I used to fly the little beauty

PantLoad
Don't think it actually makes much difference... I guess the fact that the a/c tries to pitch down is all you need to know. I'm just a bit a*al about technical precision!
The only time it makes a difference is if the pitch attitude is a long way from normal passing 50', which would alter the pitch rate below 30'. Probably explains some of my landings....

TP

I would like to thank all the captain's who have shared their views.. It was a good learning experience.:ok:

Flare
 

Tis sad. Lest your TRI be too scared could you not go into the sim?

Talk with the nervous little bugger, over a coffee and ask him, if he would accept holding the ATT until 30, then at , 20` pitch up about 2.5 degrees, or 2 degrees - judged visually, the he won`t freak at 50 feet when you don`t make any `flaring inputs.

Land better in that att - rather than float down runway with ever increasing pitch or concentrating on trying to get a fantastic "flare" - RETARD when the little man in the computer says ¬RETARD¬ .

Airbus 320 prefers to land firmly, than most and is as nearest to "flown on" than most.

As you are where you are at. Try youtube - look for a video by . . called . . .ANA 3/3 A320 here in this vid, you can see an A320 from the back end from a ground camera, you can click on the space bar thing and re-play the flare to touchdown bit (about 4 seconds) again and again and again . . . . note the straightening of the nose too, note also when the REV come out.

Remember - you are NOT trying to "flare" You are trying to land the aircraft.

The "flare" is simply a result of your efforts at trying to land it. see whadda mean?

Practice makes perfect = let nervy know that you are awake as he has not got the time or the money to "chance it" if you f--- up at 20 feet and yet some chick Captain in India or Pakistan DID have a short career of landing the 320 on the nosewheel, not to be recommended!

So just tell Capt TRI to hold tight until 20 feet and he might, might just trust you.

It would have been much better if he could have taught you or got you to learn, properly in the first place, like they should have done on the type rating course (can`t get the staff nowadays!!)

One company tried this on PPL students - yup, they flew them round the circuit trying to get them to land without having previously taught them how to land. It meant mega money into the tills at this compnay and poor frustrated students not knowing where they went wrong - Answer, wrong school. Its now gone out of business, thank God.

You DO need balls, or in the case of a lady, loads of estrogene to dare to land the thing but, but, you must be taught properly in the first place, to know what "good" is, and then, in the fullness of time the wings will grow from your shoulders.

Don`t forget, the TRI - if the aircraft gets broken while he is tightly sitting next to you, then it comes out of his wages, which is why the Captain always goes down with the ship.

Excuses ...oh excuses
 

The cabin crew are making a bet on the landing.

The fleet chief/inspector is breathing down my neck on the jump seat.:*

Some nervous passengers added some thrust on their seat and destabilized my flare!:mad:

And once you grease it on on the mains...remembernot to wreck the nose gear..there is a pronounced down force with spoiler extension to act as a reminder of flaring.Do bring her down gently or it might spoil the spoils of a smoothie touch down...meanwhile..check those touch down zone markers ...you don't want to leave them too far behind your tail!

Ignore the cabin crew.

Retard thrust levers before you check the ROD. Less chance of floating long.

Then look at the far end of the runway and let aircraft fly itself onto runway.

Dont think about it to much.

Forget the firm ones immediately.

Retard befire checking the ROD
 

Yeah...and give em a proper dictatorial bang on their rear ends!

Surely you enjoy terrorizing your passengers Dis-Honourable Mugabe?:)

I find that technique works on a light prop twin seater...not an 80 tonne metal junk...even if Fly by wire..below 50 ft "Ground Law" applies...meaning pilot is the driver.

Making firm landings and forgetting them means you will always be a lousy pilot. Why not take a little pride in your profession and learn how to land like a real pilot? That is by feel and last minute wind change corrections. Us old guys could do it, why not you?

Bubbers44, would it not be easier if we just take it for granted that the you and all the "old guys" could land every airplane ever made (bar airbus, cos they're for girls), with no AP, ATHR, FD, FMC, upside down,on one engine, in a thunderstorm, on fire.... and then taxi in and shut down, nonchalantly quipping " That's how it's done kid", to the hapless awestruck F/O beside you.

You could cut your post count in four!

This macho rubbish is all great, but the reality is that every really competent operator I learned from over the years didn't spend all day waffling about how fantastic an operator they were, and could impart knowledge with being so condescending. The guys above are giving great gen to someone who is learning. The old "natural born pilot" routine helps no one, and it's on every thread!

Even though it is your first post, I respect your opinion. Some day you will realize that it takes experience to properly fly an airplane. It did for me and all of my flying friends. We don't think we are any better than the new guys with low experience as we had but we went through the whole learning experience and now know a lot more than we did back then. We went from Aeronca Champs and J3 Cubs to Boeing 757 and 767's. Most of us are now retired but had a very wonderful flying career. Hope you do too.

It's my first post on Pprune, not my first day flying! Iv been flying for many years in both OLP and training capacities. And I think that the standard of guys I've trained in recent years is very high, all extremely motivated, and conscientious, due in no small part to the amount of money it takes to train oneself nowadays! Telling guys that they should feel how to land " in the seat of their pants", is not helpful, and serves only to bewilder a trainee, and massage the trainers ego. Students need a datum of a decent landing to develop feel, and I think the advice given above is excellent.

As an aside, having flown on different fleets with various companies, I've found that there is a huge exaggeration on how much pilot skills have been eroded. When OFTM was initially introduced for one company I worked for, there was a huge increase in reported incidents. I find it hard to believe that we all started flying the aircraft more erratically overnight, rather that guys were pushed into reporting cockups that would have been previously"overlooked"...... So I think it's very easy to reminisce about how fantastic our flying skills were, but I would be mindful of the fact that they were in an era of far less traffic, less atc vigilance, less prescriptive OFTM monitoring, less commercial pressure, and lower fuel bills. It's a brave new world out there!

NB, the problems started when they put 300 hr pilots in the right seat of jet airliners and were told to use the autopilot, don't hand fly. Then they become captains with the same talent in the right seat they had when they started.

Unfortunately now he is in the left seat with almost no hands on experience with the same in the right seat. 30 years ago this wasn't the case. Now it is. That is why we have this problem with automation dependency. We all should be able to easily fly any airplane to Cat 1 minimums with no automation as we did back then.

Most of us back then had thousands of hours single pilot flying twins to Cat 1 minimums with no problem. Now it is a problem. See the problem?

That is how we did it then and to get the airline job you had to fly an airplane you have never flown, Electra in my case, and if you couldn't handfly a single engine approach after doing 3 approaches prior losing an engine on every missed approach you didn't get the job. How many new hires could do that today? That is the difference between now and then.

No visual in those days by the way so ILS approaches to minimums in the sim were ILS's to minimums and we all passed.

I know, thread drift but making the touchdown wasn't any harder than the ILS, just judge how much higher you must be in the cockpit at touchdown than your last airplane. Once I made a firm landing in a B767 because I normally flew a B757 so had to remind my self on final which airplane I was flying today. Starting out in a Lear Jet you definately have to readjust when you think the main gear will touch.

I don't fly an Airbus (I'm an E170/175 driver nowadays), but may I ask why you're looking "a little ahead" rather than all the way at the end of the runway?

I agree wholeheartedly, once I go head up for the flare I have no clue what my descent rate is in fpm or what my airspeed is. It's all visual/feel by then. I still use essentially the same technique as what I was taught landing my first PA-28-161. Eyes at the end of the runway and let's play don't let it touch.

Seems to me some pilots tend to overthink this whole landing thing.

Don't let it touch only works with lots of runway. I landed at TGU, Honduras and we had a 700 ft touchdown zone or go around because of the short runway and the cliff at the end. Landing at the 1,000 ft point is very important to prevent over run. We should all be able to do it without floating down the runway.
One day my FO in a 727 kept floating at Kingston Jamaica so I said either land now or go around. He landed. Kingston doesn't have a long runway. Taca put one off the end over the cliff about a year after I retired and killed a bunch of passengers. They landed long on a wet runway and couldn't stop in an Airbus.
TGU is very unforgiving if you screw up. It is just challenging if you do it right. I did over 600 landings with zero close calls. I used the taxiway 1,000 ft from the cliff to use as an indicator of if I was cutting it too close. I never once needed it but to save brakes let us roll to the end. TGU is considered the most dangerous jetliner airport in the world. It is also the most fun. I never went around because if I was going to miss the 700 ft touch down point I just put it on the runway. None of the landings were bad, they were a bit firm, but got some of my smoothest ones too most of the time.

Your TGU experience is impressive, however, I do believe my main point stands.

Hi Guys/Gals

What a great thread, Some really good advice being thrown around in here.

I have a question of my own, Im a relatively new FO on the Airbus. Could anyone share there technique for landing in a crosswind?

I've noticed that when I have a strong xwind, I will keep thrust on till About 20/retard (depending on circumstances) flare, Just before touchdown de-crab with the rudder, And if need be (shoot me) maybe I check the side stick for a little bit of aileron.

Here's my problem, I have noticed that I tend to float alot with this technique. Today was a prime example, Had a xwind about 14kts gusting 20kts Brought back the thrust about 20ft flared, floated, Landed (within the touch down) For some reason I was very disappointed with the landing and started doubting myself. It felt as if I found it difficult landing in a 15kt xwind.

Any questions/Suggestions or advice would be greatfully appreciated.

Regards,

AB

Considered flap 3? Less tendency to float, especially in a 320.

Maybe you are retarding the thrust too late? I've noticed some pilots (myself included if I don't think about it before flare) are a bit hesitant to retard the TL's in windy/gusty condition and do it later than they would do on a normal day. Add some extra speed to that and voila - you end up floating...

No Way! you may be flying CRJs but that is NOT the way to land an A320 and if you `aint in an A320 then move over for those who are!

The guy`s asking a question!

If you land it like you just said by that . . .tantric method it will float 2 feet above the runway with ever increasing attitude.

The bus must be flown on.

You are right about "eyes to the end of the runway" but an approx 2 degree pitch up - judged visually is what is required at 20 ft and re-tard when the old man says so - but don`t float it - you`d stay up there all day - fly it on - firmer rather than softer. then follow with nose down without delay or that will stay into the air as long as it wants to too . . .

Nice flying :ok:

A320 baby

Remember that 15kt crosswind will provide you with a bit of lift from the swept wing on the upwind side. Effectively this gives you a little bit of an increase in your headwind. Ok, it's on one side only, but you are keeping the wings level along with the FBW normal law so it acts to increase your lift.

For this reason you'll might need to select a very slightly lower than normal attitude for the flare, then de-crab as normal and you should plonk yourself on the runway without any need to use in-to-wind aileron other than to avoid drifting downwind.

I float in strong crosswinds sometimes and it's normally because I forgot to remind myself during the last few hundred feet of the associated lift effect.

In gusty conditions, I agree with the use of Flap 3 as you will carry more energy. However, the high nose attitude and wallowy handling can make life tricky unless you are very smooth and steady with your sidestick inputs.

AD

A shame to find such questions. That has nothing to see with automation, but with criminal management of civil aviation by designers of modern civil aviation like Airbus' cowèboys, airlines, instructors, regulators, ICAO.

Every landing you walk away from is a good one :ok:

Just don't try this on a short, wet runway:}:}:}

My hero............:rolleyes:

When you are to flare and to land with limit crosswind, gusts, windshear , perhaps fire on board,night low level fog, engine lost, etc. it is not the moment to think traffic, atc, fuel bills, etc. and learn to fly with passengers on board.
Bubbers44 tries only to limit damage in case his grandchildren are passengers this afteernoon in such an aircraft with fake-pilots in the cockpit. I am affraid too. :ugh:
Such pilots have nothing to do in airlines.

where is TGU?