Some landing advice please. A320
 

Still on my line training and the inconsistency doesnt help at all.
I've always been taught to break the ROD to about 500 FPM more or less at 50 and start my gradual actual flare at 30 or 20.
This also gives the TRI relief and more chances that he won't interrupt my landing (a lot of them are scared, and usually do put some input).

Today I did not flare enough and landed with 1.4G, and I absolutely feel like crap.
I usually look a little ahead of me, break my ROD at 50, gradually flare at 30 and cut the power at 20, has been working well so far.

The TRI today told me that flaring ONCE only at 30 feet is much easier because you can actually see the nose attitude go up a good amount and hense KNOW for sure you are flaring enough.
He said that because I break my ROD at 50, my flare at 30 is just a gradual pull back on the stick rather than actually feeling the aircrafts nose attitude.
Basically that its harder for me to feel the flare.
Problem is I've used this method all through training so far..

Does anyone have any advice?
Looking for some feedback from the more experienced guys,
Thanks in advance

I will first state I am not a trainer. This is my experience of going through similar, it feels horrible doing a bad landing, but don't worry, with time it will come to you.

I had an ex Boeing pilot tell me that the trick to landing an A320 is leaving the flare until you scare yourself. Tongue in cheek but true. Flaring too high always leads to a bad landing as you run out of energy and drop out of the sky or push the aircraft onto the runway.

My landing technique A320 series is check sensible ROD into the last 50' feet, don't dive towards the runway OR get shy of the ground! I only start the flare at 20' radalt. After you start the flare, smoothly reduce power to idle during the flare. 'Retard' is a reminder, not an instruction.

If you have a high ROD into the flare, flare a bit higher. If you have a strong headwind and low ROD or very light you might need to flare a bit later.

As well as flaring at the right height, the correct speed is important. Especially on the A321 make sure Vapp is at least 5 kts above the VLS on your PFD once configured.

I was initially taught 30' for the flare, I found it very hard to land. The chief pilot told me "Forget everything you have been taught. Flare at 20', bring thrust to idle at 10." From then on it clicked for me. Good luck.

50ft is far to high for an A320. Try raising the nose attitude 2 degrees at 30ft (a small check) and look at the far end of the runway to judge the final flare rate onto the runway. Do not delay retarding the thrust levers to idle, the "retard" call is a reminder not an instruction. Select reverse thrust when the main gear touches down which will counteract the tendency of the aircraft to pitch up with spoilers deployment although the elevators will try to do that and control the nose gear onto the ground. Good luck.

Use the Rad Alt. If your airline has auto RA call out for 50/40/30/20 and 10, it's easy.

For guys new I would advise when you hear 50, wake up. 40, start getting ready. 30 begin a very, very slight back-stick, looking at the OTHER end of the rwy. The nose should barely be rising. at 20, just slow the nose rise a little, and at 10, hold the nose absolutely still.

With any luck, you'll feel the wheels kiss.

Simples.

Thanks for the response and input Tom, much appreciated.
Also, if someone can tell me if it is correct that normally a landing is at 1.2G or 1.3G? I am not sure where to find the correct figures, and also, what exactly is considered a hard landing.

Thanks !

Edit. Thanks Fly and Fantom.
I might try this next time. It does seem like 50 is a bit too early.

When you have base-trained as many pilots 320/330 as I have, you had better believe me.

Just to echo what fantom said. 50' might be a tad high. 30 is a good ballpark figure.

Also, as has been pointed out, "RETARD" is not a command, but an advisory. Waiting until you hear that command will ensure a longer than necessary landing. My technique is at 30' you check the descent rate, slight pitch change then take off a know width of power. If all is fine, no excessive sink, then the power comes smoothly to idle.

Try some manual thrust landings. Remember the throttle position when you take the active and stand the power up, either CFM or V2500, the thrust lever position for checking the stable spoolup is also the same positon config full on the glide slope.

Some landing advice please. A320
 

If anyone else has the same experience as I do, there is often the wiggle wiggle *expect smooth touchdown* crunch.

Loads of factors affect the landing;
Hot runways can cause float.
Heavier aircraft require a slightly higher flare.
Wind strength and local obstacles changing wind direction close to the ground.
Upslope.
Humps in runway.
Lighter aircraft give the feeling of a harder landing due to oleo compression on touchdown.
To name a few...

It's too much to be able to account for so don't be too critical if you don't kiss the Tarmac - the guy next you has thousands of hours and possibly thousands of landings - The person on the left should be pretty good at it!

Avoid messing with the rate of descent too much in the last couple of hundred feet. Early on get on the glide and follow the directors. If the weather is good, keep looking out if the window and doing the squashed fly thing. This should give you the external visual cues early. The artificial horizon is good, in good weather a real one is better!

Don't chase PAPIs at low level. The RoD you had earlier should put you in the right place. Avoid overcorrecting, the airbus will try to smooth out short period variations - by correcting them yourself, the bus then fixes the original perturbation and you have to cancel your previous correction! Sometimes I find I am reminding myself to "let go"! The trainer will crap himself if you say "correcting" and stuff the nose down at low level. Plus you won't get any consistency at 50' if one day you at 800fpm and the next at 500fpm over the threshold.

I would love to hear if anyone has any contradicting advice or additions - I find landing the airbus a real challenge too.

Oh, and the best piece of advice is to get your excuses out early. Good ones include:
* I've been on leave.
* I can't seem to get my seat position right today.
* I hate landing the aircraft when it's heavy/light/windy/wet.
* This runway is shaped like a church spire....

Any others?

Landings
 

I don't fly the A320 so can't give advice on landing that puppy but as mentioned early the rad alt calls 50, 40 ,30 etc are great indicator to whether your going to slam it in. If they count down too fast chances are you going to slam it in, so just pull back on the yoke to arrest the descent rate. Also don't think about it too much, just go with the flow. I'm sure I slammed the plane in the other day (and when i say slammed I mean slammed) because I was over thinking/complicating the landing because there was a bit of wind and at the last minute got in a pickle and smash!

50' is too high for an A330, let alone an A320/321.

Start flare at 20' rad alt. Once flared, reduce thrust levers to idle. Look at the far end of the runway and adjust the pitch attitude so the aircraft is slowly sinking. You will grease it !

Damn, now I've given my secret to everyone!

I came from turbo props and STOL aircraft which had a thick wing and you could hold a level attitude and let them sink on as the lift decayed. This does not work with a thin wing - it will just run out of lift and dump the aircraft onto the tarmac heavily !

Good luck !


U

I´ve been trough the same not too long ago. Just a few points:
1) Every instructor (willing to do good) will tell you the "secret perfect landing technique". Truth is it works for them, not necessarely for you. Sometimes they can be almost opposite.
2) Don´t stress too much over it. Everyone has been there at some point. Try to do your best. Be open and brief about your shortcomings to the instructor. Tell him what has been happening, what you are planning to do etc. This will show maturity and situational awareness on your part and maybe most important increase the safety of the operation.
3) Now for my secret perfect landing technique....

a) GS/2 is the ROD you must maintain (there´s no fixed value for this) until 50feet. As you know at 50feet the elevator memorizes the position etc etc. (check it in the FCOM) so if you come to this point at the correct speed, with the correct ROD and correct attitude half the work is already done.

b)Don´t fight the last 50 feet of the landing until touchdown, instead fight all the way down until 50ft (aiming to cross as described in point a) and at that point just accept what you´ve got and stop chasing any indication, just focus on the flare.

c) Coming down don´t chase the FD. My control over the aircarft on finals improved A LOT once I stopped paying so much attenction to the FD which actually was just "sucking my mind" and making me become fixated on just one thing. Instead open your scan, look mainly at your ROD (GS/2) and the pitch required to get said ROD. Look at the glide and loc indicators and react to them, not to the FD. Look outside. Use the FD only to "confirm" you are on the right track.

d) Once at 50ft STOP CHASING AND ACCEPT WHAT YOU´VE GOT. Give the ROD a final look and with this info think how much flare input you´ll have to do ONCE YOU REACH 30FT, NOT BEFORE. If crossing with 500fpm you know it will be a small flare, crossing with 700 it will require more input.

d) The rest is... well, supposed to be easy, what can I say :bored: As mentioned before: start flare at 30, smoothly cut the power, look mid to far end, if you feel like floating just let go a bit (do not press down) etc etc.

Happy landings!

@Uplinker

I beg to differ. I've also come from Turboprop background and those aircraft had to be flown all the way to touchdown (and woe and betide if you retarded the power levers too early), while on the 320 seems to be okay with arresting the descent at around 30' and taking the thrust anywhere below 40'. Then it just lands itself... :ok:

Goodness , why don't you read what I wrote?

50 feet is WHEN YOU WAKE UP.

30 feet is when anything happens.

It's no wonder you are not learning; you are not listening.

Try and be pretty consistent in your positioning of the aircraft so that you're in the same place every time you get to 50 feet above the threshold, i.e. rate of descent, speed, lateral positioning should all be correct. A good landing tends to follow from a good approach, if one day you're doing -400 fpm over the threshold and the next -800fpm due to your positioning relative to the ideal profile then it's going to make the judgement of the flare more difficult, especially when you're new to type.

The biggest problem I see is people chasing the "glide" at low level, especially in the last couple of hundred feet, and effectively de-stabilising the approach to a certain extent. Don't chase the PAPI's at low level ( below a couple of hundred feet ) you should be going for your aiming point on the runway. Accept what you've got at 50 feet, look down towards ( but not at ) the end of the runway and start a gentle flare at about 25/30ft assuming you've been at a sensible 700 ish fpm. Smoothly take the power off almost simultaneously and keep that gentle descent rate till you touch.

And don't worry about the odd cruncher, we all do them from time to time!

WBV

Oh and Ps, try not to do the double flare thing, the check at 50 and the second flare at 30, it tends to eat up runway. If you can get into the habit of making it all one smooth progressive flare, it works much better. It'll come, don't worry!

WBV

Have a look at the FCTM
 

It might help to have a read of the "LANDING" in the Flight Crew
Training Manual. This will help, I'm sure.

Basically, at 50 feet RA, the 'system' changes from normal pitch law
to flare law. At this point, the auto trim stops, and the aircraft's
pitch attitude is 'memorized.'

So, because of this, it's important to maintain a stable pitch attitude
as you go through 50 feet RA. In other words, have it in the slot prior
to 50 feet RA....keep it there.

Now, at 30 feet RA, we're going to think about starting a flare. At 30
feet RA, the aircraft slowly, gradually begins pitching down....a total
of two degrees over eight seconds. This logic is to force the pilot to
flare, just as he would in any other aircfraft.

Under normal conditions, at this 30 feet RA, the pilot pulls the
thrust levers to idle. However, as Airbus states, the pilot comes
to idle when best adapted. Gusty wind conditions, maybe keep the
thrust in there a bit longer. If stable wind conditions, but just a tad
high and/or fast, maybe you'll come to idle a bit earlier. In any event,
thrust must be at idle before touchdown.

So, 30 feet RA is where it's all happening. Thrust idle, start a nice
flare, fly it right on to the runway. Nice and easy....

I have to say, don't worry about the landings....I've made more than
my share of 'firm' landings in my career. What you're looking for is
a nice, stable approach, and a touchdown on the thousand foot marks...
really, in pratice, just a bit beyond. You want to touch down at the
proper point at the proper speed...begin the deceleration process.

You'll be just fine....

Fly safe,


PantLoad

At 20' raise the nose a little chop the power gently and hold the attitude, look down the end of the runway. Accept what happens, it will likely be positive but not heavy.

DO NOT try to grease it when you are learning.

Leave the niceties until you have got a consistent technique for putting the jet down at the right spot on the runway.

Once you get a feel for that you can start to work for the greaser.

I have got over 10,000 hours on the A320 family and still can't get overly consistent with it.

Don't listen to the cabin crew debrief either!

Hey fantom;

That's a spiky response for a trainer - cool your jets. The thread starter said 50', so in effect I was agreeing with you and others.


Stuck in an ATR;

Well, OK, maybe the Dash 8-Q400 didn't quite work that way ! The 146 did though. It had a thick STOL wing and gently drifted down. So did the shed. My point was that the A320 wing won't provide lift all the way as the speed reduces. Once it gets below a certain speed - BANG - the lift is gone, so you need to fly the Airbus down onto the runway.


U

And remember that it is more important to touchdown in the correct place rather than achieve a greaser halfway down the runway.

You are correct.

Cooled...

Whilst I agree with the above, focussing on the correct touchdown point will more often than not lead to firm landings. At least, that is my personal experience. I changed onto the Airbus with quite a few hours of Boeing time under my belt, but for the first few days of line training I struggled to land the aircraft decently because I was so focussed on the correct touchdown point: the training flights were out of the shortest runway in the network!

My landings and my confidence improved dramatically when I landed on a 3000m runway. Not because I floated the aircraft, which I did not, but because I wasn't fixated on the TD-point and focussed on other visual cues to fine tune the landing!

Flare
 

Passing the threshold (so, at approximately 50 ft) shift your visual focus point a long way down the runway.
In that way, your peripheral vision will show the descent rate.
Flare enough to almost stop the descent rate.

Do not switch your vision point to inside anymore, because that will destroy the continuity of your descent rate estimation.

My experience is that every landing that was less than soft, I had not shifted vision far enough down the runway, or I did something like a quick check of airspeed during the flare.

PantLoad...
True or false?
FCOM says it reduces to 2 degrees nose down pitch over 8 seconds. It never reaches 2 deg nose down because the PF flares for the landing, but that is the "target". So the nose down pitch rate varies with the attitude memorised at 50' RA, hence the importance of being in the slot with the correct pitch at 50'.

What a great thread......! and as you can see from the posts so far - everyone is an expert and everyone seems to do it slightly differently!

The truth is that landing a jet is like most things - the more you do it the more 'innate ' it becomes so that really your sixth sense tells you when and how much to flare. We've all been where you are now and believe me - a 1.4G landing is nothing out of the ordinary and certainly nothing to worry about. I remember in my line training having 1 or 2 that could beat that!

It's also worth mentioning that no matter how long you've been flying and how good you think you are, you'll still thump it in from time to time. I find that just as I'm going through a purple patch and think I've got it sussed, reality bites and I realise I am human after all with a couple of more 'average' arrivals.....

As I say - the important thing is not to worry too much about it and try and learn from experience! Enjoy!

btw....

.... was my favourite bit of advice! That's where I've been going wrong!

Flaps

Landing advice
 

One of the methods I used, was to watch the auto pilot at work during the landing and simply copy it. Remember that mathematics plays a big part in flying and computers. The aircraft normally approaches at a 2.5 to 3 degree nose up attitude on a 3 degree slope. At 15 ft AGL, raise the nose to 6 degrees and lock it there. Simple.
At 50 ft slowly reduce thrust to be at idle at 30 ft. The reason you can do this on hi-bypass engines is because the N1 fan produces 75% of the thrust, so when the thrust is reduced, the free-wheeling N1 (flywheel) fan continues to produce thrust (at a reducing rate). Not like the old straight jets that would reduce thrust to idle immediately, causing you to fall out of the sky. Watch the AP and copy it.
T

Nothing to worry about..
 

One of the cadets I was jumpseating in my company landed with 1.9G... :E My physician is still trying to fix the spine..

Good luck with your landings.. My personal experience is dont flare too early, will make you fly 5 feet above the runway.. High weights always make the airplane easier to land, especially if equipped with HGW landing gear, it will behave like an unadequipped teenager, the closer to DOW your LW is :rolleyes:

Do not underestimate the fact that a landing is a visual maneuver,you MUST look down the runway to judge your flare input.
By raising your head,your hands should follow by pulling gently until you see no runway rise,you are then parallel to the runway.
If you initiate the flare too early,you will have to flare more slowly and therefore land long.
If you initiate the flare too late,you will need to make an abrupt pitch much may end up ok but can cause positive landing and if with some thrust still in,a bounce.

As mentionnned above , at 50 feet your focus is primarly on the runway as your speed should be set as well as thrust setting.
At 40 feet,the aimiing point will start rising towards you which is the time to lift your head and look 2/3 down the runway and watch the rise.
By the time your head is up,the 30 ft will come and its time to gently pull the nose up WHILE reducing the thrust.
Do not reduce the thrust after you pulled up as it induces long flares/floats,lower pitch at landing and higher vgtd which for your morale is apparently not good.:E

When the visibility is low ,dark etc all clues should be used including RA and feel of the pants.

Good luck.

Come on you cant be serious,do you even know how the autopilot does a landing??
I vote this the worse advice ever.

Thank you all very much for the input and for the positive comments.
I am taking everything into consideration and appreciate all the advice given.

Just a few last questions.
Some captains tell me never to look in after 50 feet, some tell me to take quick glances even at 30 to see how you're doing with the ROD, I just wanted to see what you guys have to say about that.

Also, finally, I assume it is normal for a TRI to take the landing from you on your early stages?
It is absolutely the worst feeling when you hear "priority left".
I'm getting comfortable with the aircraft and being told that I am ahead of the game for my level, but I just have a slight issue with the landing, which will NOT be a problem.

I really hope that this is NOT a problem, and something everyone goes through initially till he gets the technique..

Thanks again guys..

I cannot believe some of the crass advice being offered here by supposed professional pilots!

This opinion is based on 16 years on A320/A330/A340 types + 7 years of aircraft base training experience ie. actually teaching people how to land airbus types.

Firstly: emulate the autoland system! This does a very late abrupt flare actioned by rad alt data. Not something for the human pilot to strive for.

Secondly: Thrust reduction - do many of the posters on here realise the relationship between thrust lever angle and thrust delivered whilst the autothrust is in use? From the posters suggestion, I think not! Do not confuse slowly closing the thrust levers with a slow reduction of thrust.

Thirdly: The landing flare has always been a visual manoeuvre - that is exactly why, when the visibility is too poor for adequate visual reference, that autolands are performed!!

That some posters are advocating looking at the flight instruments below 50ft. and making flare references to the ADI horrifies me or perhaps suggests that we have "flight simers" offering their advice!?

Comments from real Airbus pilots welcomed.

At 50 you look out,not in anymore..your rate of descent(closure rate to runway)is by looking at the runway itself...

Im out now,good luck.

To the OP - you should be able to spot the fools here quite easily! As a rated 320 pilot, you will know that bringing the levers back slowly has no effect for the first half of the travel, so any post with slow levers in can be considered drivel...

The answer to your question is in the FCTM and also by listening to a couple of people on this thread.

In preparation, you must be stable and "in the slot" for the last part of the approach. The best way to do this is by visual reference - as a learner you may think that that lovely flight director is useful, but it's not. It's actually easier and more accurate to fly the last part (below 200') using eyes only...

At 30 RA it all starts happening. Stop looking at the aiming point and look now at a point 3/4 of the way down the runway.

The machine starts to lower the nose itself at 30 RA, so even if you wanted to maintain your ROD, you would have to apply smooth and continuous stick-back. But you want to reduce your ROD, so you will naturally apply more stick-back, so apply just a little more such that you see your sink rate reducing and you start to fly towards that point down the runway.

At the very moment your nose goes up, the thrust will increase (to maintain speed). This is a bad thing because, despite the theory, there is still a tiny pitch-power couple. So the solution is to cut the thrust a millisecond after 30' and to do this you need to promptly close the thrust levers (subject to abnormal speed variation).

And now all you have to concentrate on is the stick and the new aiming area. You continue to gently pull back, so that you are visually using texture flow to fly the aircraft towards that point positioned 3/4 of the way down the runway. This will give a small ROD and a tiny bump at touchdown.

In summary:

• Stable approach.
• Visual references only below 200'.
• If slightly off target, correct only in small amounts so as to not affect stability.
• At 30' start a gradual stick back and...
• Close the thrust levers promptly.
• Continue the stick back until you are flying to a point before the end of the r/w.
• Done.
• For a crosswind, move the pedals as slowly as is humanly possible. So you may have to start that really slow movement as high at 25 RA. When you get the hang of that, halve the pedal movement speed. ;)

HTH

de facto, I gave the reason why you can do this. Did you read it? I did that for years on the 320 with no problem, why? because I understood how the by-pass engine works. You don't have to do it, no one is twisting your arm. It's a matter of choice.
T

Please read it again....
 

Again, and as usual, I emphasize the need to read
your SOP, the FCTM, the FCOM, etc., for yourself.
Then, there should be no confusion.

With regard to the two degrees in eight seconds...
I suggest that this be read again, for clarification.

I understand that, for many, English is not the native
tongue. So, reading from authoritive documents that
are written in English is a challenge itself.

If there is any question, I strongly suggest that you
contact someone in your training department. While
I love PPrune, I find much of the writings, here, are
complete nonsense.

Fly safe,

PantLoad

Serious question. As a retired rotary pilot, I have no experience at all of landing jets. I was kinda surprised to hear that it's all done by numbers, at 30ft do this, at 20ft do this. How would you manage if the rad alt failed? Is this not taught in training?

RA callouts are helpful. We're talking of eye heights over 20', and maybe 30', at touchdown. Are they necessary? No.

Don't look inside below 50'? If you've got quick enough scan and want to look at something go ahead. I often glance at the RA readout, even during the flare.

Maybe shifting your gaze avoids fixation and is helpful. IDK but it works for me.

It isn't that complicated. Fly the approach or visual, flare using visual reference, smoothly reduce power and touch down. You can see how high you are so why bother with listening for a RA altitude? Fly like a pilot, not a robot. Automation has taken flying skills away from pilots in a lot of cases. I never let it happen. My Aeronca Champ didn't even have a battery installed so automation dependency was not a problem.

Flying the B757 to Tegucigalpa, Honduras was all visual approaches below 2700 ft with terrain all around and a hill that required the final turn to final be at 100 ft. Fun flying but you had to be a pilot, not a pilot mill graduate.

Meikleour you come across as someone who knows what he is talking about (fantome your input would also be welcome). What would you recommend when landing an A321 not too heavy with a light quartering tailwind that gets a sink rate that requires the thrust to be kept at the CL detent until the wheels collide with the tarmac? Short of a go-around it is still got me stuffed as to what actually happened. What would you think of bringing the thrust levers back to mid position between CL and IDLE and disconnecting the A/T just prior to runway contact? Serious question.

Lookleft: Thank you for your kind words however I have never flown the A321 only the A319/A320 variants. A rare moment of honesty not always evident on PPRUNE perhaps?!

However....... anecdotal evidence from talking to colleagues who have flown it suggests that the situation which you describe is much more common with the A321 than the smaller variants. Remember, the wing is essentially the same area but lifting a much higher weight. In addition the TE Flaps are different.
The most common advice would seem to be to ensure that there is a truly adequate margin between Vls and Vapp whilst using ATHR.
Your suggested technique is too vague since you would have no real idea of how much "extra" thrust would be delivered and the time taken for it to be delivered. The +5kts increment when using ATHR is to compensate for lag in ATHR response. If you were to use manual thrust no such padding is necessary and thrust response more immediate. Therefore the aircraft should be fully "flareable"(?) at Vapp provided that it is judged correctly.

In the situ. you describe, if the wind really is that light then I suspect that you are just flaring very slightly too late and/or too abruptly.

I have always found that whilst the A320 uses a normal flare the much shorter A319 simply needs a "check" prior to touchdown.