PPRuNe Forums - AF 447 Search to resume (part2)

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)

- Tech Log (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log-15/)

- - AF 447 Search to resume (part2) (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/449639-af-447-search-resume-part2.html)

Good work! Let us hope that it contains (at least part of) the answer to what happened.

Am I correct though that they have not found either part of the CVR yet?

llagonne66. Why the silly head banging. Do what everyone else does. Copy the properties of the picture, check them out, paste them in your search engine. Satisfied?

Events like this remind me of the tenacity of the human race.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick L (Post 6423309)

Am I correct though that they have not found either part of the CVR yet?

They didn't announce it, so it's safe to assume they indeed didn't found it (by now). :)
Or of course, they did find it and are currently reworking the data it contains. :E :E

France BEA must learn to differentiate between a CSMU of a FDR and the one from a CVR

I suggest France´s BEA to learn ASAP how to differentiate between a CSMU of a FDR to the one they found, from the CVR:

Quote:

BEA 1st May 2011 briefing

The investigation team localized and identified the memory unit from the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) at 10 h UTC this morning. It was raised and lifted on board the ship Ile de Sein by the Remora 6000 ROV at 16h40 UTC.

The photos published by BEA are from CVR CSMU:

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....mages/fdr1.jpg

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....mages/fdr2.jpg

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....mages/fdr3.jpg

Quote:

I suggest France´s BEA to learn ASAP how to differentiate between a CSMU of a FDR to the one they found, from the CVR:

The drawing on the Honeywell data sheet is not correct for the "4X" (4700) series recorders. It is only correct for "1X" and "2X" models.

See this picture of the Gol 1907 FDR (which used the same recorder model as used on AF447):
File:Caixa-Preta GOL.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that we know this is not the CVR because on that flight the CVR's memory module separated, while the FDR's did not.

Quote:

But then perhaps they can now concentrate on how the french can insert faulty data in the recovered SSFDR

Conspiracy hawkers, (they cannot be called theorists) express both the need to control information and the need to limit, not expand understanding.

This is opposite to an investigator's primary goal which is to discover and follow evidence where it leads, no matter where or to whom it leads and then to build a story based upon what is demonstrated to be true.

Conspiracy hawkers have an easy job because all they need to do to is create doubt then leave it to others to build upon the insecurity of not knowing.

Investigators have a much more difficult job because they must convince experts and doubters alike.

We needn't guess which method withstands tough scrutiny, experience and expertise and which deserves our attention.

Another point: Creating flight and system data for credulous consumption as well as reading by experts (NTSB included, I would think), presumes a rational, detailed theory of what happened. In just over three million views and over five thousand contributions in four threads, 99% of contributions being knowledgable, thoughtful and informative, we have many theories but none of which are complete in every single detail.

Conspiracy hawkers need to explain how anyone creating false data, ostensibly to support the views of powerful interests of one persuasion or another, is going to create a plausible theory and then turn it into 1300 digital parameters, without a trace of intervention.

The A330 AFS and other aircraft systems and AF 447's flight conditions may be inferred, perhaps even accurately so, but, assuming this CSMU is readable, (and I believe it will be), flight data accounts for every second and every digital value these 1300 flight and system parameters, until the end of the recording. No theory presented here has been able to do that.

None of this denies the fact that strong interests are involved and that the expertise exists to be able to make the claim that manufacturing data is possible. But the possibility is not the problem.

Manufacturing such data such that its falsified pedigree is invisible while still making complete sense to those who do this work in their sleep, and keeping this within the necessary confines of a few, is virtually impossible.

It is those who know the airplane, accident investigation processes, flight data, human factors, weather, sea states, software and hardware design, communications and organizational factors who deserve the attention of those who wish to find things out. While doubt is always good because it leads to advances in understanding, doubt without an explanation which so leads, is not worth reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RR_NDB (Post 6423361)

I suggest France´s BEA to learn ASAP how to differentiate between a CSMU of a FDR to the one they found, from the CVR:

Maybe I overlooked something !?
Probably I'm equally ignorant as BEA, but at first glance I do not see a difference between the CSMU of the FDR from that of the CVR.
Could you point me to the differences ?

More than the NTSB involved !

If we just go back to the BEA interim report, page 11 :

ORGANISATION OF THE INVESTIGATION
On Monday 1st June 2009 at around 7 h 45, the BEA was alerted by the Air France Operations Coordination Centre, which had received no news from flight AF447 between Rio de Janeiro Galeão (Brazil) and Paris Charles de Gaulle. After having established without doubt that the airplane had disappeared in international waters and in accordance with Annex 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation and to the French Civil Aviation Code (Book VII), the BEA launched a technical investigation and a team was formed to conduct it.
In accordance with the provisions of Annex 13, Brazilian, American, British and German accredited representatives were associated with the investigation as the State of the engine manufacturer (NTSB) and because they were able to
supply essential information to the investigation (CENIPA, AAIB and BFU). The following countries also nominated observers as some of their citizens were among the dead:
 China,
 Croatia,
 Hungary,
 Ireland,
 Italy,
 Korea,
 Lebanon,
 Morocco,
 Norway,
 Russia,
 South Africa,
 Switzerland.

So the conspiracy would be at the United Nations level !!!

If the matter was not so tragic with 228 lost souls, I guess the BEA people would be laughing out pretty loud when reading some of the posts from our armchair conspiracy theorists.

Back to business : let's hope the DFDR data is legible and that they will be lucky twice by finding the CVR.

They have found one of the boxes so hopefully we will get all the answers

Hi,

PJ12 - AlphaZuluRomeo - llagonne66 - vanHorck

Why stir an empty pot http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/b...stirthepot.gif :confused:

I have not yet seen here in the messages some posts from Mr Jacquet - Mr Gerard Arnoux - Mr Henri Marnet-Cornu .. etc ... :p

Quote:

So the conspiracy would be at the United Nations level !!!

BTW United Nations are masters for conspirations :)

They found the CVR

RR_NDB,

I saw the links. But they look to me identical to the CSMU of the SSFDR.
The following link shows the CSMU of a SSFDR from Honeywell:
https://commerce.honeywell.com/wcsst...DR_800x800.jpg
What for do I have to look ?
Where is the difference to the one they found ?

Regards,

henra

Hi all, I'm a new participant but been reading for years. I am highly appreciative of the expert knowledge here.

Some of you may have noticed in the latest BEA photo, there are two annotated images of the debris field (annotations are not legible) taped to the flatscreen stand. I have cropped and adjusted the images.

The debris is quite scattered, but I believe some of you may be able to make guesses at some parts of the aircraft.

Not sure if these are photo composites or hi-res sonograms. Shadowing seems consistent across the field.

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/8...brisnarrow.png

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7...debriswide.png

Hi,

Found on another forum:
Sonar pic
Deleted (doublon lol)
It's frenzy post here :p

At some parts of the world, today, May 1, is the Workers´ Day.

So let´s salute the good job of the guys on board "Ile de Seine". Cheers!

Besides, the third photo published by BEA shows something interesting:

http://i.imgur.com/bGyZO.jpg

To me, this seems to be a detailed map of the wreckage, probably showing also the position of some rocks at the bottom of the sea.

PS: sorry lateott, I just posted after you......... ;)

henra,
The photo you have is of a CVR (see the label on the recorder electronics behind the CSMU) - however the CSMU on the FDR carried by AF447 is similar in appearance (cylindrical).

RR_NDB believes that the CSMU should be cubical and with rounded edges. (as in his earlier post where he gives all the technical details on the SSFDR and CVR) But this is incorrect for the model (4700) of SSFDR carried by AF447. The publicly-available data sheet from Honeywell shows only diagrams for different (presumably earlier) models of SSFDR. As I mentioned before, the 4700 model FDR carries a cylindrical CSMU.

Based on westerly currents encountered on the drift to the seafloor, as described previously, it is likely the heavy, dense or hydrodynamic chunks are to the east (right) with lighter, less dense parts further to the west.

There is a section quite large far to the east that is only present in the wide field image. Some postulated earlier that might be the cockpit or tailplane.

Could the section to the south be a wing with landing gear? Can anyone make out the engines or the APU (likely in the rightmost part of the main debris field)? It would be nice to establish the scale.

CSMU of SSFDR model 4700 is bigger

Henra,

Did you see my briefing?

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/449639-af-447-search-resume-part2-21.html#post6423288

I posted it few moments before BEA announcement.

Mac

PS

I am investigating a post here with info on MAC between PR-GTD x N600XL

Perhaps someone should tell the BEA there's no need to look any further for the other recorder: the BBC web-site says this one records cockpit conversations.......