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Machinbird, that excitation idea is pretty good with a large "if" involved. If the "speaker", the element that imparts the sound in the water, is a resonant element of some sort it should work fine. If not getting energy in through the water to housing discontinuity and then the housing to air discontinuity inside may be difficult. And the resonant element, if there is one, would have to get hard enough to get energy back out.
It might have something as simple as an RC time constant setting the oscillation frequency. With a little more complexity it could be something akin to a watch crystal. (And without driving it so hard it fractures you're not likely to hear it outside of the crystal case.) The next step up might be a tiny higher frequency crystal with a CMOS divider circuit to get it to frequency. I'd vote for the little quartz tuning fork or watch crystal type oscillator. Stepping backwards a tiny bit if the structure itself plus the transducer has a resonance it might be possible to excite that and notice a distortion in the return signal as you go over the package. The package should have several resonances. Maybe one of them is strong enough to be exploitable. |
Loose_rivets, military sonars are well beyond reasonable power for this application. Get too close to them in the water and you'll get homogenized nicely. (With some slight exaggeration. It'd not be at all healthy and likely deadly.)
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Image metadata
ChristiaanJ,
> Does anybody really know the origin of this picture? > All that's obvious so far is that it was "photographed" from a video monitor, presumably on the "Ile de Sein", since it's in colour." The information sought is largely present in the image metadata. Personally, I like the way they've tethered the monitor to the desk. |
Machinbird
If you could excite this with a pulse of the appropriate frequency, and if it were nearby, you might receive a slight signal back from the oscillating element after the exciting signal cut off. This signal would have a characteristic amplitude decay over time which should be easy to characterize from experiment with similar pingers. You would also receive echos of the original pulse as it bounced off more distant items, but these would not have the characteristic decay signature. The return signal will, of course, be tiny and distance will work against you dreadfully, but at the frequencies we are talking about, powerful transmitters are already available and suitably sensitive receivers too. Experimentation would, as you suggest, be necessary to study the characteristics of the received FID (Free Induction Decay) and what proportions of transmit and receive would be necessary. And you wouldn't need a nice, clear signal ready for image reconstruction, just a return - any return - showing the FID of the pinger. Very nice lateral thinking sir, if I might say so? :) |
There is a K.I.S.S. way to check
Machinbird,
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/449639-af-447-search-resume-part2-20.html#post6422330 With the number of EEs looking at this thread, I'm sure the darts will be flying if it won't work. Fire when ready. Considerations: 1) If you transmit high power pulses and listen after a short burst you may be able to detect. 2) I send you a "DART WITH KUDOS" for your feeling! |
CSMU location
Machinbird,
On AF447, I would be most surprised if the pingers are still attached to the memory modules. Anyway, there are several improvements that should be made after AF447 crash and the "boxes" are candidates for. |
Machinbird
Great suggestion. This is above my pay grade, but not understanding. I would think that those knowledgable in this field could refine your idea thereby improving the possibility of sucess. Implementation should not be all that difficult with proper preparation. Lets hope some consideration will be given by those who know. |
Non metalic VS structure as HF antenna
JD_EE
Your second message prompts as reply that I am interested in your observation that a non-conductor can make an antenna. Your message is nonsense because the VS is fiberglass with little or no metal in sight, so far as I know. Do you know why? |
Public domain solution (non patenteable)
Machinbird,
Your idea and comment could be used in next generation of CSMU location devices (pingers, etc) If you could excite this with a pulse of the appropriate frequency, and if it were nearby, you might receive a slight signal back from the oscillating element after the exciting signal cut off. This signal would have a characteristic amplitude decay over time which should be easy to characterize from experiment with similar pingers. You would also receive echos of the original pulse as it bounced off more distant items, but these would not have the characteristic decay signature. Kudos! I will comment the technical advantages of your solution for underwater box location. Will use messages area,. Who become interested i can copy. |
Oh wow! Have you been reading your "Magnetic Resonance Imaging for fun and prophet" Machinbird? That is exactly the basis of MRI and you may have hit on a novel and just possible answer. Nice one. :) I did try to stay awake in Physics classes :8. Magnetic resonance is nothing new. The signal processing developments are what made MRI practical. My "idle speculation" evolved strictly from an understanding of electronics state of the art and basic physcs. Probably not a highly attractive patent anyway because of the highly limited demand. Before we all get too excited, just remember the saying that there is "Many a slip twixt cup and lip." Yes, a competent person could likely acquire the necessary gear in a week, assemble a working prototype in the second week, and go on to deliver a unit capable of functioning at depth in the third....If they had a broad area of knowledge about EE, signal processing, sonar transducers, and operations at extreme depth. There are just a few such people out there. Get a group involved and it slows down considerably. I would bet that the Ile de Sein crew gets lucky before anyone develops a functional unit but the concept mentioned could influence future recorder design (attaching passive resonant elements) and should be followed up on in case we do need a phase 6:{. |
They got one !!!
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Thanks for the info.
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FDR localized and identified
Information, 1er mai 2011
The investigation team localized and identified the memory unit from the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) at 10 h UTC this morning. It was raised and lifted on board the ship Ile de Sein by the Remora 6000 ROV at 16h40 UTC. |
Tongue Part Way in Cheek
from: Megalith Electronics
to: Mr. Pat Pendng Dear Sir/Madam: Thank you for your suggestion that we should buy your invention for Synchornous Anachronistic Wobbly Widget. However, we at Megalith have the greatest scientific and engineering minds in the industry, and if your idea had any merit, we would hold patents for it already. Thank you again for your interest. We value you as a potential customer. Randy Sparks, Vice President Engineering Megalith Electronics --- Then there's the reality that China does not enforce foreign patents. |
Great News!
Let's hope it is as intact on the inside as it appears on the outside.
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....r2.reduite.jpg GB |
They found it!!! Barely penetrated the silt - was worried that it'd require sonar scan to find it.
Let's hope the data is usable... |
Well done!
It appears that of the CSMU's four attachment bolts, at least one is not there anymore but the remains of two or three bolts are still affixed. Also, I see no sign of the ULB (underwater locator beacon). From a flight safety improvement viewpoint, this is in my opinion a cause of concern. |
Now only one missing CSMU from Boxes of AF447
According to the information supplied by Air France, the airplane was equipped with two flight recorders, in accordance with the regulations in force: Flight Data Recorder (FDR) Manufacturer: Honeywell Model: 4700 Type number: 980-4700-042 Serial number: 11469 This Solid State Flight Data Recorder (SSFDR) has a recording capacity of at least twenty-five hours. The decoding document, supplied with this airplane, has around 1,300 parameters. Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) Manufacturer: Honeywell Model: 6022 Type number: 980-6022-001 Serial number: 12768 980-4700-042 AC/DC supply Option Long ULB Yes Des 4X 37 Mega Bytes non volatile memory 17.4 pounds Interface unit plus CSMU SOLID STATE FLIGHT DATA RECORDER 4X SPECIFICATIONS Honeywell Part Number 980-4700-04X Packaging ARINC 404, 1/2 ATR Short & Long Weight 16 or 18 Pounds, Nominal Power 115 VAC, 400 Hz, 15 W; 28 VDC, 8 W Data Capacity 25 Hours @ 256 Words/Sec (3,072 bits / Sec) 50 Hours @ 128 Words/Sec (1,536 bits / Sec) 100 Hours @ 64 Words/Sec (768 bits / Sec) Data Storage Medium 36 Mbyte, Flash EEPROM The SSFDR's crash survivable memory unit (CSMU) provides for complete data recovery when subjected to the crash conditions stipulated in ED-55 and ED-56a: Impact Shock 3400G, 6.5 milliseconds Penetration Resistance 500 lb. weight from 10 feet Static Crush 5000 lbs., 5 minutes High Temperature Fire 1100°C, 30 minutes Low Temperature Fire 260°C, 10 hours (per ED-56a) Deep Sea Pressure and 20,000 feet, 30 days Sea Water/Fluids Immersion Per ED-55 The CSMU design has been fully qualified to these requirements and, in fact, exceeds them by considerable margin in key survival areas: Impact shock has been successfully demonstrated at 4800 G's High temperature fire exposure has been tested to 60 minutes Low temperature fire was tested immediately after exposure to 1100°C fire http://visualjournalism.com/wp-conte...6/blackbox.jpg Info on AF447 CVR: 980-6022-001 120 minute model Weight: 16 lbs. max Temperature: Operating: -55 to +70C Short Term Operating: +70C Non-Operating: -55 to +85C Altitude: +50,000 ft MSL Humidity: Severe Environment Shock: Operational 6 g 11 ms duration 400 Hz single phase or +28VDC Power Consumption: 8 watts typical, 35 watts max Input Impedance: 10K ohms Output Impedance: Less than 600 ohms Bandwidth:150 - 3500 Hz on voice channels 1-2-3 150 - 6500 Hz on area channel 4 Harmonic Distortion: <3% total at 1.0 KHz Recording Duration: Up to 120 mins System Deactivation: Cockpit installed circuit breaker http://www.avionicsales.com/product/...VRFDR/ED55.jpg |
All the conspiracy theorists must be fuming by now......
But then perhaps they can now concentrate on how the french can insert faulty data in the recovered SSFDR |
vanHorck
How do you know that these pictures have been really taken on the crash site ?:ugh:
Are you sure that this is THE DFDR aboard AF447 ?:ugh: And of course, as you mentioned, data will surely be edited by the BEA/Airbus/AF conspiracy !:ugh: I am pretty sure that our beloved conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day on those pictures !!!! At least 20 pages on the thread if they are in a good day !:ok: |
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