Severe turbulence/mountain wave 10th March 2007
 

Thanks to the TCX chappie today who advised us of what was about to break loose, none of our pax were hurt..


Much appreciated.


:ok:

A good call by the sound of it. Probably the worst turbulence I have experience in airline flying has been there.

Just got back from my 2 sectors, rough as hell south of the pyrenees. Worst i've experienced to date! Speed control... whats that?

Similiar experience a few years ago. unfortunately, it was an inaugural flight and the plane was full of VIP's, press and the airlines MD....14 injured, not an experience you ever want to repeat..
Safe Flying.:ok:

There were lenticular clouds over Norfolk yesterday.

Terribly hilly, Norfolk.

Turbulencs.
 

Anybody care to let me know what levels you experienced it at?

SS

That wind over the Pirineos is called "Tramontana", it´s local wind in all the region, it get´s really bumpy.

You also can get this type of heavy turbulence in the Approach at Malaga airport on Rwy13, it´s called "terral" and mainly on the summer, that has been my worst experience on winds.

- re Post#2 it was FL360 - until we did an emergency descent due to pending loss of control.

Also experienced this yesterday at FL360 crossing outbound from MAD.

Speed decayed very rapidly.

Last night it was at all levels from FL290; we had to squeal for an immediate descent from FL370 north of MLA. Speed all over the place and bouncing around like a kid on a trampoline. One easyJet crew asked for descent and were told to "Standby". Great reply from the crew "I don't want to standby I want to descend because of turbulence" Maybe the ATC guy in his warm stationary room won't ask a crew to "Standby" again!! North bound it wasnt too bad over Bilboa, got lumpier near Nantes. Have the joys of the same route tonite:eek:

Turb over spain
 

My other half flew LGW-PMI with Easyjet yesterday morning , and said turb was like nothing he's ever seen...and he flies 744 with BA so has seen a bit of it! NLA.

So thats why all those aircraft were asking for extra cleaning yesterday... :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

One easyJet crew asked for descent and were told to "Standby". Great reply from the crew "I don't want to standby I want to descend because of turbulence" Maybe the ATC guy in his warm stationary room won't ask a crew to "Standby" again!!
Would you prefer ATC to descend you into another plane? I will tell pilots to standby when needed, different pilots have different degrees of turbulence tolerance and I will certainly not loose separation because of a pilot feeling a bit uncomfortable. Whenever possible he will get descend, if he has to wait and cannot he should declare that he's unable to maintain level and emergency separation can be applied. This happened once to me during the past 20 years in probably the busiest airspace over Europe. The idea that you even think ATC would not give descend because they don't feel like it is revolting and shows very little appreciation of our jobs. Have a great Sunday.

Agress with GARP. However, some Eurpoean ATC is most definatley not in the same class as the likes of UK and doesnt instill the confidence that we would prefer!

I have only ever ONCE experienced what I would class as severe turbulence - we couldn't read any instruments, took a few goes at getting hold of the ALT selector and cockpit was full of charts, meal packs, papers etc etc!

This was south of alps over Italy and ATC did same, responed to our request for descent with 'standby'. However our reply was 'Mayday, we are descending to FL200' and down we went. That cut through the red tape!

The Real Slim Shady, you show an incredible lack of knowledge and maturity. Wonder what you would have posted if the controller had given immediate descent slap bang into some other traffic. Rest assured my friend that no controller will deliberately make you ride heavy turbulence just for the fun of it. Try and understand that if an aircraft in the cruise unexpectantly requests descent the controller may well first have to initiate co-ordination with an adjacent sector or unit. Spend a day in an en-route ATC centre before you mouth off so stupidly.
Kick the tires, by all means call "Mayday - am descending to FL200". Then it's your responsibility. But if you "request" descent the controller will not move you until he/she is satisfied that it is safe to do so and all necessary co-ordination has been effected - because it's his/her responsibility.

All fair comment. I suspect that very very few cockpit crew are ever trained in emergency descent due to turbulence. Decompression - all the time.

The latter is black and white. The former grey and grey.

Its a topic that Air traffic control Officers and Pilots should perhaps discuss in more detail for mutual benefit.

Cheers

WWW

Mmm!

Severe turbulance means the A/C is temporalily out of control.
Standby well yes, will be followed very shortly by a jet upset.
That means mayday if you can get the words out with a mouth full of cockpit clutter.
ATC if an a/c is screaming for descent due severe turbulance he/she means it, it is just a matter of timing before the mayday. Severe turbulance can be the most frightning thing a pilot experiences in his/her career, he/she is NOT a wimp. Those who think he/she is, have never been in severe turbulance.
Mother nature is bigger stronger than any human built machine or person, luckily it does not happen that often.:cool:

Wasn't any of this severe turbulence forecast?

No, not really. And it was bad.

WWW

Training
 

WWW - re you comment on training. A very good point.

After some thousands of hours, quite a few global, I've never experienced it nor heard it mentioned by trainers apart from a video on Jet Upset on one type rating course.

Certainly never seen it in the sim.

Well worth inclusion.

SS

It is PAN PAN PAN "xxx Emergency Descent". If, as we are led to believe, the Spanish and French do not understand this emergency prefix, then make it "Mayday". Turn off track (helps the descent) and down you go. ATC can sort it out. The odds are stacked in favour of not hitting anything against losing control.

Do not linger in SEVERE turbulence waiting for Pedro or Louis to respond, or you will find yourself descending anyway, but out of control.:)

garp

I will tell pilots to standby when needed, different pilots have different degrees of turbulence tolerance and I will certainly not loose separation because of some whimp feeling a bit uncomfortable.

Your attitude is idiotic.

Aircraft have bee destroyed by severe turbulence.

Well said.

Have been in severe turbulence in the Madrid area. Cabin was a mess speed all over the shop.

Not the place to linger for too long.

An interesting debate. Severe turbulence is never pleasant. A few years ago I was flying south west from Dakar at night and entered severe turbulence that induced a 3000'/min ROD in a 4-engine heavy with max thrust applied. I would have dearly liked to have had an air traffic controller respond to my RT as they will in Europe - even if it is 'Standby'!

That said, I also had severe turbulence (mountain waves) east of the Rockies where the Mach went from 0.86 to 1.1 and down to 0.5 quicker than I can type it and all we could do was to hang on and attempt to fly attitude. Sadly, the US controller seemed less than interested - but fortunately we came out the other side fairly quickly.

In both cases, it is something I would prefer not to experience again - and night always makes it worse. However, whenever I find myself in an emergency or urgency situation I welcome the crisp and professional response of the UK controllers - in my experience they are generally superb.:ok:

F3G, it seems you haven't read my complete post which continues as follows
"Whenever possible he will get descend, if he has to wait and cannot he should declare that he's unable to maintain level and emergency separation can be applied."
From your comment I understand that every a/c reporting turbulence has to be descended/climbed regardless of traffic or degree of turbulence. Good going. Again, just for the sake of clarity, when you declare that you are unable to maintain level you will be descended/climbed and emergency separation can be applied. Rest assured that any pilot asking for a level change due turbulence will get it but not at any price. As a final note you can also rest assured that we will try our very best to warn you about turbulence and try to plan you at different levels.

Garp...

Perhaps your "some whimp..." understandably upset a few.

Having used Pan Pan at 6000 in the LHR TMA in a 767 and ended up in Stansted with an AOG a/c (following the QAR "G" record) I would have objected to being called a whimp.

Would severe turbulence justify a mayday? Before anyone starts, I am not getting at the guy who posted that! Just wondering...
I would have thought a Pan would be more appropriate until actual bits of aeroplane start worrying the Pyrennean goats...
Am I talking rubbish?

- possibly. Please re-read post #22

I think it's the wimp comment that riled a few guys. ATC isn't going to clear you to a lower level without making sure you have seperation. We ask for lower or higher all the time due turbulence, most of the time we can wait for them to check with another sector for conflicting traffic. The guys on the ground don't know how bad it is, or that you need immediate descent. If its bad enough that you're about to run the airspeed indicator out the bottom and plummet from the sky declare the pan, or mayday..turn offtrack and down you go.

You can sort the rest out later and keep an eye on TCAS in the meantime. ATC won't give you a clearance, nor should they unless its safe and legal for them to do so. If you want down before that, do what we'd do in any other situation that warrants it, declare an emergency, take your own seperation into account and descend.

Just out of interest ... could someone outline what this severity of turbulence actually feels like? I'm imagining a scene where instruments can hardly be read, you'd immediately and violently depart your seat if not stapped in, wings flexing all over the place, or in other words like being violently shaken as if in a cocktail shaker...would appreciate an insight for future reference. Thanks.

Interesting thread!

Is the turbulence that you talk about in this region a seasonal thing?

Controllers will always try to give you descent due to turbulence if you request it but there are a number of reasons why you may be told to standby, such as...
1. You're still in another sectors airspace (especially if you've just been transferred) and we need to co-ordinate descent with the previous sector before we can descend you.
2. There's other conflicting traffic which we need to get out of the way first.
3. We're busy trying to give descents to the other a/c experiencing the same turbulence. Weather and turbulence can really increase our workload. We will try to give you what you want as soon as we can as we all know what it's like to be in the back of a plane in turbulence but bear with us!

Bandit - not necessarily - it could be severe mountain wave where the speed goes from stall warning with full power to limit speed with throttles closed. Descent is the only option. Luckily only seen that once. Also came close in a twin piston over the Scottish Highlands.

Not always a 'shaking'. :)

Thank-you. I didn't know that. Got me curious now..will have to go and read all about it!:ok:

Forecast
 

On the last page WWW said it was not forecast. I understand that the Tramontana was forecast on local radio & TV for Catalunya, with windspeeds "Up to 140kph"

Maybe not joined up met reporting?

There was nothing on the significant weather charts or any SIGMETS.

The only SIGMET was for the Barcelona FIR expiring around 1500Z.

Many thanks to the southbound Speedbird who warned us about this whilst we were still in Algerian airspace (heading northbound). They went through the area at F310 and apparently had a very rough time. When we got there we were at F400 and it wasn't bad at all - a couple of minutes of "moderate", with speed excursions of +/- 10 knots - no sweat. Sometimes it pays to go high!! :)

I know this might be a "how long is a piece of string" question, but i see most folk are wanting a decent. I only fly bugsmasher altitudes and getting away from mountain induced turbulence is usually by flying as high as you can. Obviously with very high terrain its different and maybe you are flying below the waves, is that what you are trying to achieve? how do you determine which is better climb or decend?

J:ok:

The lower you go the thicker the air the more scope your wing has to avoid a stall or overspeed. To put it in stupidly simple terms.

I don't know of many that would prefer to climb closer to coffin corner to avoid turbulence...

Cheers

WWW

Severe turbulence is easily handled....let the co-pilot fly the aeroplane.
No one is the wiser...:}