BA's 80 Knot Call
 

Hi

Does anybody know why in BA SOPs, the call by the NHP: "80 KNOTS" gets no response from the HP?

Thanks :ok:

Why does it need a response?

to check if the guy is still alive!!!

why wait until the v1 call to find out

We use the (100kts) call as a way to check i)Incapacitation of the handling pilot ii)instrument x-check so the response 'checked' is very important in Airbus standard SOP, and the airline I work for.

In an RTO below 80kts NHP selects Reverse Idle, above Full Reverse.

We use 80kts call by the nfp, and fp responds 'checked, or 80kts.Works well.

If the guy is keeping the aircraft on the centreline at the 80kts then I think it's highly unlikely he's dead. They don't drive themselves you know!

CM , on our SOP states also , that if no answer at 80 kt call ,then PM will say 'my controlls' and abort the take-off.
What are the reasons for the 80 kt call? From what I know those are:
speed check
separation between the 2 phases of RTo: low energy and high energy RTO
incapacitation check
There are different levels of incapacitation,and the fact that the plane is tracking the cl doesn't allways mean that the PF is 100% on the job.Answering a call check,at a specific time, increases the certitude about his awareness..
I knew pilots,very experienced ones,who sometimes flew the plane 'on autopilot' (and I don't mean the airplane A/P) , while their mind was somewhere else. An interrogation check will always reveal such an incapacitation , dangerous due to lack of wareness.

part of the 80 knt call goes back to the 707 when the t/o power had to be set by 80 knts and a cross check of the instruments

c152pilot,
I guess the main reason is because BA flight operations think there's little chance of someone becoming incapacitated between setting take-off power and the a/c reaching 80kts. As a result, no response to the 80kts call is there to reduce 'unnecessary chatter' during an important part of the flight. Furthermore, no response will prevent unnecessary aborts due to communication cock-ups.

The 80kt call is there as a trigger to remind us that we no longer "stop for any failure". As Sean Dell says, it also reminds NHP to select Reverse Idle or Full Reverse as necessary.

You've probably noticed the lack of incapacitation check at the other end of the flight as there's no response to the "100 above" call on an instrument approach.

I guess in BA we retire early so there should be less chance of us collapsing at work ....:hmm:

tyou are right no reply to the 100 above call but at DECIDE call if the PF does not responed then the PNF will exicute a goround.

On the 777, the PM will say '80 kts' then the PF will say 'Hold' as a responce to the FMA changing its autothrottle mode.

What type do you operate? Maybe you have a similar FMA call ?

I wonder if the fact that cautions and warnings are automatically inhibited on the take-off run? The Master Caution lights are usually inhibited from about 80kt on takeoff to 400ft and engine fire warning bells are therefore usually inhibited from approximately V1/VR to 400ft.
I see it as a reminder of that fact.
D'vay

Big Bus : same idea, different speed = 100 kts

1> incapacitation check
2> up to a 100 kts we CAN stop for any caution/warning

speed > 100 kts : only allowed to stop for warnings, no cautions !

Surprised that in BA and some other airlines the PNF operates the reverse in a high speed abort while presumably the captain stands on the anchors if not in RTO. Is that a Boeing recommended procedure?

What happens if slippery runway with crosswind where the aircraft can drift sideways and weathercock under reverse thrust sideways vector? I can see an awful lot of talking and hands in all directions from two pilots if that happens. Would it not be more safer and certainly easier and less confusing to have one man handling the full abort (the captain) while the First Mate monitors and initiates necessary radio calls etc?

Boeing recommends the captain to keep hand on throttles after takeoff thrust is set,and perform the rto manouvre if necesary,no matter who is PF.
False Capture: about incapacity check during approach...what if there is no answer at call 'minimums' ..? This is on our sop the incapatitation call,where if no answer from PF the PM will assume controls and state his decision.
I've heard BA has many differences from average SOP,but you have to remember they are on the market for a long time now,and they have established they're own SOP,a good one if you learn it and stick with it.
There is no perfect SOP,but most are ok if you know and follow ,instead of trying to add or modify from older SOP's you've known.

We follow the new boeing proc's in our company and we have to set T/O thrust by 60kts, the 80kts call is for incapacitatin and we will also get a change to throttle hold on our fma, which is annouced....BA do it differently, but i guess your going to get slight changes form company to company, not a massive issue, the only thing is that if you don't get a response at V1 your only option is to go, which does seem a little strange but there you go, oh and also following the standard boeing sop, the capt will do the abort as his hands are on the throttle until V1...

A whole bunch of things happen at 80kts...(Boeings anyway)
1. Incapacitation check
2. Instrument x-check
3. Stopping for "any abnormality" has ended, and we now only stop for more serious things...
4. Master caution "attention getters" (lights and aurals) now inhibited
5. The autothrottle system disengages from the throttle servo gears and so cannot move a thrust lever until new selction on Thrust management coputer (earlier versions, or MCP on later models)


...I'm sure there's more, but I cant think at the mo...

We fly the classics and power must be set by 80 knots otherwise g/a thrust is set. Also it separates the low speed/high speed regime for abort decisions and instrument cross checks are done.

TM&S
 

MASTER WARNINGS inhibited after 80kts.....really

On the bus half deflection forward stick is taken prior to setting the T/O thrust (full deflection for >20 kt X-wind or and tail wind). This is to keep the N/W firmly on the ground for steering during the time the pitch power couple would try to lift the nose. At 80 knots the NHP calls and checks the HP releases, slowly, the forward pressure. This tells the NHP the HP is 'alive' and gets rid of the nose wheel loading as, above 80kts, the aerodynamic effects of the rudder outweigh the effects of the nose wheel steering.

TAC INOP,

We do not call FMA changes when they should happen on the B777 sir.

Sir (nice one)...we call FMA every time it changes, as part of crew awhereness

and I still cant believe the bit about warning inhibs at 80 kts...cautions ok, but warnings.....

TAC inop,

On the BA 777 the PM calls 80 kts and both PM and PF would expect to see the 'HOLD' FMA, they just don't verbalise it, thats all. For your interest, we call them NHP (non-handling pilot) and HP (handling pilot) respectively.

I cant see the post about "the bit about warning inhibs at 80 ts...cautions ok, but warnings" (deleted maybe?) but that is wrong. On the BA 777 the Master Caution lights and beeper are inhibited at 80 kts. The Master Warning Lights and Fire Bell and Siren are inhibited at V1.

teamilkand sugar wrote

'A whole bunch of things happen at 80kts...(Boeings anyway)
1. Incapacitation check
2. Instrument x-check
3. Stopping for "any abnormality" has ended, and we now only stop for more serious things...
4. Master caution and master warning "attention getters" (lights and aurals) now inhibited
5. The autothrottle system disengages from the throttle servo gears and so cannot move a thrust lever until new selction on Thrust management coputer (earlier versions, or MCP on later models)'


ok...now I am talking about item 4...now, that aint right, not at 80 for warnings

further, to reflect on the thread itself, I sugested early that maybe BA had a call of 'hold' to respond to the 80kt call ... but I guess you just dont respond at all...does seem strange, but hey, whatever rings BA's bells

Further to the above (BA use "50 above"), if no reply is received to "Decide" on a Cat 3 approach, in BA the co-pilot will land as it is considered safer than a solo go-around.

The calls within BA (from the Non-Handling Pilot) are "Power Set", "80 knots", "V1" (if applicable), "Rotate", "Positive Climb" ... and of course "Stop".

The "Stop" call is perhaps the most contentious. Obviously, it can be called by the Captain for any reason, although above 80 knots it would most likely be for "multiple failures". However, unlike in some companies, it can be called by the co-pilot for any of the following:

i) Any fire
ii) Engine failure (two parameters, one on the panel)
iii) Configuration warning
iv) Blocked runway *
v) Control difficulties *
vi) "Monitor Radar Display" auto-callout **
vii) "Windshear Ahead" auto-callout **

* If handling
** Where fitted

Also, on a CAT3 No DH approach there will be no "50 above" call/autocall (or 100 above for that matter). So by the time the F/O notices the Capt is incapacitated the aircraft has landed itself! Just select reverse, disconnect the A/P, override autobrake as appropriate and ask ATC for assistance and medical as required. A G/A would really screw up the Captains chance of survival and increase the F/Os workload tenfold.

All these are indeed quite correct, but to answer the initial question: Why 80 KTS, as it might have been chosen 70, or 90, 100, 85....
If I remember well my early aviation days, on a 707, there was no link between the rudder pedals and the nosewheel, as on later aircraft, and no tiller on the right side; during initial take off roll, and especially with cross wind, the captain had to keep his right hand on the thrust levers and his left hand on the tiller to keep the plane on the centerline using the tiller, while the FO would hold a forward pressure on the column, and this until the rudder became aerodynamically effective to be used for directioanal control on the runway. That speed was 80 Kts, which the FO would call so the captain could move his left hand from the tiller to the column. From there on "80Kts" became a "traditional" speed to call and to use for all the other purposes you all guys have mentioned.
Et voila, madame, pourquoi votre fille est muette.

refer to my post above :rolleyes:

Also for most types RTO or autobrakes max is armed prior to this speed, also for certification, takeoff power must be set by that speed.

Also in low vis, takeoff should be continued after this speed if vis reduces below takeoff minima, because it is safer than the RTO in this case.

I would have thought the captain, under the conditions above, would make his own decision to reject the take off without having a startled squawk of "Stop" from the copilot to tell him what to do - or should not do - as may be the case at the time..

Rather depends who notices first.;)

Also, if the captain isn't handling and is looking in at the engine instruments I would have thought the FO calling stop for a blocked runway or control difficulties makes a lot of sense.

Here we go again, just because "our" (i.e.BA's) SOP is different to your's then it is "out of this world". Why the emotive language? The instances an F/O can call stop are well defined and seem to work fine.

RTO, I'll give you that BA SOP's might not seem sensible for someone who doesn't work with em on a daily basis, but they are bloody good once you get the hang of em.

I think that went with the Flight Engineers (and probably the VC10 - ask the RAF).

just back to the core for a moment.... FCTM 3.5 states '...PM should anounce passing 80 kts, and the PF should verify....etc'
So, that is what Mr Boeing has to say about it
ibid

TAC inop,
Why should he/she announce something that which you both normally expect to see?

British Airways don't invent their own SOPs. BA consults with the manufacturer (Boeing or Airbus) and then decides on the SOP providing this is in agreement with the manufacturer.

At the end of the day, how many times has a B777 aborted take-off because the FMA didn't annunciate 'HOLD' at 80kts eventhough take-off power was correctly set?

On 737 the call should be made at 80 kts ,and the other pilot should check his speed and answer 'checked' . If the speed is not right,he should abort the take off.We had a safety presentation done by a Boeing safety pilot,and it was obvious that it's much safer to abort instead of continuing with unreliable speed (observed by high speed difference at 80 kt call)
The 'hold ' call is not required by Boeing , it must be monitored. The absence of 'hold' is not a reason for RTO , but the pilots must closely monitor the a/t operation during take-off (so it doesn't reduce power due to any fault )
I had some fo's who were doing the 80 kt call :" 80..thrust hold "...so I asked them what if you don't see 'hold' ? you reject? And I've surprised some of them, cause they were doing the check without really thinking of it.
Elroy,on the 737 the autobrake arms at 90 kt.

More importantly, autobrake RTO functions above 85 kts on B777.

The BA SOP is to apply full reverse above 80 Kts in an RTO, and reverse idle below 80. Therefore the 80 kts call by PNF serves as a good "reminder to self" as to how much to apply if stop is called.

TAC Inop

Sorry for the delay...been on a trip.

You are indeed correct. Too much ale pre-post!
Cautions inhibited from 80kts, WARNINGS from rotation (B757-767) or V1 depending on systems fit.

Thanks for the spot & clarification - I'll edit my post.