Boeing 737 Autothrottle System
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Boeing 737 Autothrottle System
Going through the 'Boeing 737 Operations Manual', I gather that the autothrottle can be used for a manually flown precision or non-precision approach down to landing. Are there any Boeing 737 pilots who use the auothrottle for most manually flown approaches, and if so, is it an approved standard operating procedure with your company.
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For us, manual flight = manual thrust unless you are operating to a thrust target - such as Take off, initial climb or Go-Around. If we are manually flying to a speed target, the autothrottle is disconnected. The reason is the large pitch couple associated with thrust changes. I believe most 737 operators adopt this technique - and I've been told that Boeing instructors teach it.
Last edited by Earthmover; 8th Nov 2002 at 00:04.
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In our company A/T use is recommanded even in manual flight.All the way to touch down with auto retard.However if to much hunting by A/T is better to DESELECT MCP speed mode leaving A/T in ARM mode which keeps alpha protection active just in case speed drops below target or gust or windsheer.
Humus Motor
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rr892igw, absolutely - we do the same, but slightly different philosophy in that we always leave AT in ARM on final if flying the approach manually - it's the best of both worlds, since you don't have destabilising thrust/pitch inputs, but the protections are there as you say. BA do the same I think, but I know at least one other large operator who doesn't.
It's amazing how many ways there are to skin the same cat!
(edited after detecting that I had written complete garbage on my first try!)
It's amazing how many ways there are to skin the same cat!
(edited after detecting that I had written complete garbage on my first try!)
Last edited by Earthmover; 8th Nov 2002 at 09:47.
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Our mob (or should I say the mob I worked for till recentley) had a policy of landing the 737 with AT deselected (ARM). However I found years ago its a good idea to keep MCP SPD in all the way down during a non-precision (NDB or VOR) app at night when nature is hurling huge buckets of water in your face and all you have are fuzzy lights ahead (and no CL or TDZ lighting) and the light of an odd angry lightning bolt to guide you.
In wx like this I used to keep the thing in. Stick to vertical profile as best you can. The AT will do a reasonable job of taking care of speed at a critical time when just trying to keep the bloodey aeroplane straight along the extended centreline in varying strong xwind takes precedance. Just as the AT retards, flare slightley and bobs your uncle. Gives you an idea where the hell the ground is too.
In good wx most pilots deselect SPEED mode at about 1000 ft. This still leaves in all your speed-protection sh!t. Only the Quake kids keep the AT in MCP SPD mode all the way to the deck till RETARD so Ive noticed.
In wx like this I used to keep the thing in. Stick to vertical profile as best you can. The AT will do a reasonable job of taking care of speed at a critical time when just trying to keep the bloodey aeroplane straight along the extended centreline in varying strong xwind takes precedance. Just as the AT retards, flare slightley and bobs your uncle. Gives you an idea where the hell the ground is too.
In good wx most pilots deselect SPEED mode at about 1000 ft. This still leaves in all your speed-protection sh!t. Only the Quake kids keep the AT in MCP SPD mode all the way to the deck till RETARD so Ive noticed.
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I had the privilege to fly A330 and B777 as and FO before taking command on the B737,I guess that's the culture we inherited in this company.we are very use to flying manual with A/T to touch down.It is REAL to fly manual with auto retard,Flap One!
p/s: Its even better to have RA auto callout in sh*tty wx.(no visual height perception required)
p/s: Its even better to have RA auto callout in sh*tty wx.(no visual height perception required)
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I was under the impression that the thrust idle command came from the APFD system on all Boeings? Without the APFD active, the thrust mode will remain in "SPD" (i.e the thrust levers will remain above idle... and you won't have Autospeedbrakes, Reversers or Autobrakes on touchdown).
Rgds.
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Rgds.
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From the 737 FCTM: "To simplify thrust setting proceduers, AT use is recommended during T/O and CLB in either automatic or manual flight. During all other phases of flight AT use is recommended only when the autpilot is engaged."
I guess this is why we disconnect AT but I have to admit never to have flown with AT engaged during manual flight. I recall something about PIT due to AT engaged in manual flight? Anyway, I think the ARM technique on approach sounds useful during GA.
I guess this is why we disconnect AT but I have to admit never to have flown with AT engaged during manual flight. I recall something about PIT due to AT engaged in manual flight? Anyway, I think the ARM technique on approach sounds useful during GA.
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OPERATOR's SOP.
Flaps one, yes we do.
The MEL allows an a/c to be dispatched with A/T inop.So if you're doing multiple sectors on a loooooooog day you will use the a/pilot.
Yes, even on approach.We are trained for that.....that's why we get the big bucks! 
Again, this is all left to the operator & how they train the crew.
PILOST
The MEL allows an a/c to be dispatched with A/T inop.So if you're doing multiple sectors on a loooooooog day you will use the a/pilot.
Yes, even on approach.We are trained for that.....that's why we get the big bucks! Again, this is all left to the operator & how they train the crew.
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Company's SOPs
To answer Woofer's question, yes there are some operators that require the A/T to be used even in manual flying (when available).Mine is one of them.This procedure is approved by Boeing.
As eloquently put by Slasher in his earlier posting, the need to have the A/T operational throughout the flight regime especially on approach is a matter of safety & common sense, not to mention saving our butts! Our theatre of operations require us to fly in unpredictable tropical weather & making non precision approaches is part of our staple diet.Hence the need to have all available options ,automation & redundancies working for us & not against.
A pilot who is worth his or her salt would be profficient to handle all aspects of the a/c flying characteristics with & without system failure or failures.So having the A/T working with us is a wise option.As for the argument of throttle hunting & trim changes, that is easily addressed by selecting the ARM mode for the A/T.Again respective operators will have their views on this but like I said ours has been thought throughly before the proverbial "pen unto paper".
Flaps one, all our pilots are checked to fly at 'pure manual' mode but why do you leave yourself exposed to the 'elements'?It is a matter of policy & it's just that.
Safe Flying all
As eloquently put by Slasher in his earlier posting, the need to have the A/T operational throughout the flight regime especially on approach is a matter of safety & common sense, not to mention saving our butts!
Our theatre of operations require us to fly in unpredictable tropical weather & making non precision approaches is part of our staple diet.Hence the need to have all available options ,automation & redundancies working for us & not against.A pilot who is worth his or her salt would be profficient to handle all aspects of the a/c flying characteristics with & without system failure or failures.So having the A/T working with us is a wise option.As for the argument of throttle hunting & trim changes, that is easily addressed by selecting the ARM mode for the A/T.Again respective operators will have their views on this but like I said ours has been thought throughly before the proverbial "pen unto paper".
Flaps one, all our pilots are checked to fly at 'pure manual' mode but why do you leave yourself exposed to the 'elements'?It is a matter of policy & it's just that.
Safe Flying all
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I watched some-one (retired 744 skipper) fail an airline Sim assessment in the 733 'cos he left the A/T in whilst manually flying. The speed was +/- 10-15kts and the altitude +/- 300ft. It was painful to watch him struggling with a not very helpful (management) co-pilot. When it was my turn, I took the A/T out and passed!
O.K. it was only a sim but I certainly think it destabilises you slightly unless it is in a thrust mode, as noted previously.
We teach the same on the 744, by the way.
Qavion, the 733/734 A/T will retard automatically at 27ft RA (from memory), even on a manually flown approach.
A merry Xmas to all my readers! (O.K. my reader!)
O.K. it was only a sim but I certainly think it destabilises you slightly unless it is in a thrust mode, as noted previously.
We teach the same on the 744, by the way.
Qavion, the 733/734 A/T will retard automatically at 27ft RA (from memory), even on a manually flown approach.
A merry Xmas to all my readers! (O.K. my reader!)
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"Qavion, the 733/734 A/T will retard automatically at 27ft RA (from memory), even on a manually flown approach."
Thanks (again), Eckhard...
After some extra reading, I see that there is an "OR" logic gate in the A/T idle command.
The throttle on the 733/734 will retard 0.8 seconds after Autopilot flare (with A/P engaged) OR....
".... at 27 feet radio altitude if the Autothrottle is in speed mode and the flaps are greater than 12.5 units."
Cheers.
Q.
Thanks (again), Eckhard...
After some extra reading, I see that there is an "OR" logic gate in the A/T idle command.
The throttle on the 733/734 will retard 0.8 seconds after Autopilot flare (with A/P engaged) OR....
".... at 27 feet radio altitude if the Autothrottle is in speed mode and the flaps are greater than 12.5 units."
Cheers.
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In my company:
Auto flight: At least one A/p in CMD and A/T on
Manual flight: Other than above configuration
The recommended procedure is to use A/T for all type of approaches.
We just have to pay attention at 27 feet RA, that A/T will retard, sometimes we have to guard the throttle so it will not retard to soon/fast.
The advantage to use A/T during manual approach is we don't have to increase FAS in gusty condition, because A/T through airspeed and acceleration sensing, it will correct wind and gust.
The FAS will remain in VRef + 5.
Auto flight: At least one A/p in CMD and A/T on
Manual flight: Other than above configuration
The recommended procedure is to use A/T for all type of approaches.
We just have to pay attention at 27 feet RA, that A/T will retard, sometimes we have to guard the throttle so it will not retard to soon/fast.
The advantage to use A/T during manual approach is we don't have to increase FAS in gusty condition, because A/T through airspeed and acceleration sensing, it will correct wind and gust.
The FAS will remain in VRef + 5.
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Good point, loewe.
However I have always found quite scary to trust the autothrottle Vref+5 in gusty winds.
It simply doesn't work as advertised, and one continually has to "help" waking up the trottle an inch up.
However I have always found quite scary to trust the autothrottle Vref+5 in gusty winds.
It simply doesn't work as advertised, and one continually has to "help" waking up the trottle an inch up.
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On the MD-80 where the thrust line is on the drag line the ATs is a great help on a manually flown approach right down to and after touch down.
On the DC9 it was a no no because there was no retard and once you landed the thrust levers would advance to try to keep the approach speed!
On the B-300 and up, where the thrust line is below the drag line, so you get a marked pitch couple with every thrust change, you can usually get a more stable approach by using manual thrust. There may be times when the ATs can be of assistance (we all know what a poor job of landing the AP makes in a crosswind situation so the combination of Ats on and AP off can make sense) but you must keep your hand on the thrust to get the feed back and anticipate the pitch couple.
I was glad of the Ats a few times at a low ceiling approach in LTN with a crosswind out of autoland limits. You can always override them but are a good aid.
I think the answer is that it is a matter for consideration and that reactions like "you aren't flying manually then" and other mores have no place in the discussion.
Now - what do you do on the A 320 with a fixed thrust lever position?
On the DC9 it was a no no because there was no retard and once you landed the thrust levers would advance to try to keep the approach speed!
On the B-300 and up, where the thrust line is below the drag line, so you get a marked pitch couple with every thrust change, you can usually get a more stable approach by using manual thrust. There may be times when the ATs can be of assistance (we all know what a poor job of landing the AP makes in a crosswind situation so the combination of Ats on and AP off can make sense) but you must keep your hand on the thrust to get the feed back and anticipate the pitch couple.
I was glad of the Ats a few times at a low ceiling approach in LTN with a crosswind out of autoland limits. You can always override them but are a good aid.
I think the answer is that it is a matter for consideration and that reactions like "you aren't flying manually then" and other mores have no place in the discussion.
Now - what do you do on the A 320 with a fixed thrust lever position?
Do not forget that most aircraft have different AT control laws, in more modern aircraft these are quite complex, yet generally they are all designed for the primary roles; take off mode, cruise (climb / descent), and precision approach.
In addition to the differences in aircraft characteristics, each AT will also behave differently for each flight mode. When using AT without the autopilot, most ATs may not operate as you expect / require for a manual approach. Those ATs that I have flown all tended to destabilise the aircraft, making the approach pitch control just a little more sensitive, which in turn makes the speed oscillate.
Above all else, do not try to help or over-ride an automatic system, sooner rather than later it will bite back – in a big way. If you do not like the performance of an automatic system, then disengage it and take over manually. Treat autos like co-pilots if you don’t like what they are doing take over … if you don’t like what the Captain is doing … speak up.
“An autopilot is like a co-pilot, but never learns”.
“A co pilot is like an autopilot, but makes mistakes”. (Sorry co-pilots, you make mistakes in order to learn, and then you become Captains ... to make mistakes).
In addition to the differences in aircraft characteristics, each AT will also behave differently for each flight mode. When using AT without the autopilot, most ATs may not operate as you expect / require for a manual approach. Those ATs that I have flown all tended to destabilise the aircraft, making the approach pitch control just a little more sensitive, which in turn makes the speed oscillate.
Above all else, do not try to help or over-ride an automatic system, sooner rather than later it will bite back – in a big way. If you do not like the performance of an automatic system, then disengage it and take over manually. Treat autos like co-pilots if you don’t like what they are doing take over … if you don’t like what the Captain is doing … speak up.
“An autopilot is like a co-pilot, but never learns”.
“A co pilot is like an autopilot, but makes mistakes”. (Sorry co-pilots, you make mistakes in order to learn, and then you become Captains ... to make mistakes).