MAYDAY vs PAN

[Matey]

Had a flap malfunction into Rhodes in a 757 years ago requiring a higher speed landing with reduced flap. Declared a pan and held while checking landing distance etc. asked ATC to have the fire service meet us after landing in case we landed long and used more braking than anticipated and follow us to the stand if we elected to taxi in. This was refused as “this is only done for an emergency.” OK then…MAYDAY…and we got what we wanted. However the interminable paperwork and required visit to the tower to explain our actions was something else!

[PENKO]

Originally Posted by safetypee

Perhaps others could relate their experiences in the actuality of surprising, unexpected situations where most mental resource is being applied to managing the immediate and subsequent situation.

I agree with you that all bets are off during and shortly after a totally unexpected situation. Sooner or later though, hopefully, training will kick in in some form. And the proper declaration of an emergency is often part of that training. Sometimes the mayday is an explicit part of the memory items, sometimes ECAM will remind us and sometimes, like in the engine failure case, it is somewhat left up to our discretion.

But I agree with your important point, real life drama will be different than the sim scenarios we practice. The way our brain and body reacts will surprise us in ways the sim cannot replicate. Hopefully thought and discussion beforehand, like on PPRuNe will be of some benefit later on.

An interesting yet typical example is given in the post above where a pilot kind of asks for some emergency service cover, but the controller, quite understandably demands the clarity that specific procedures give: are you declaring an emergency or not? I’ve seen the opposite happen where we, rather vaguely I admit, just wanted an inspection after landing. No PAN was declared, yet to our surprise we were met with the whole RFF capacity of the airfield. In both cases the controller procedurally did not take half measures. With hindsight, a PAN would have been the correct call that day. Lesson learned.

[Bergerie1]

In the smoke emergency I mentioned above, after my non-standard but explicit initial R/T comment, we made a MAYDAY call. But ATC had already drawn their own (correct) conclusions!!

[FlightDetent]

Whatever you do, just share to ATC what they need to know to help you. 3xPAN or MD won't make much of a difference. Not like the stressed ICAO 8 speakers from Swiss at Pulkovo.

My present regulator requires PAN (no fire or severe damage), and all training departments are audited accordingly. ATC procedures are adjusted to this. Not being able to follow a clearance while you still can explain it does not warrant declaring distress; also we're led to believe an EFATO-go case is a controlled risk without immediate danger to life.

"P-P-P Unlucky3-11, engine fail after TKOF RWY 16R. Request RWY heading to 4 NM then right turn, climbing to 6000 ft - STANDBY"
"Unlucky 3-11, Safehaven TWR. Copy PAN. Climb and turn approved, call me when ready to change frequency".

What's your template?

[BugBear]

AA 587 MAYDAY.

Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator

Here we go again…

At my previous operator (2-engine medium jet), we had an engine failure in the sim. I called “Mayday.” The instructor stopped me: “No, that’s a Pan call.” His reasoning? “You’re flying perfectly safely on the remaining engine.” (debatable) — even though our manuals never specified which call to use.

Now at a new operator (4-engine large jet), I lose one in the sim and call “Pan,” thinking: no big deal, three engines left. During the debrief, the instructor tells me: “Always make it a Mayday — you can downgrade later if needed.” (a logic I’m more aligned with, and what I would’ve done if I hadn’t been steered the other way at the previous operator).

This is my 8th employer, and I kid you not — the “preferred” distress call even amongst instructors at the same operator has been split 50/50, with only two operators ever prescribing it clearly in their manuals. If it’s prescribed, easy: I’ll follow the company line. But otherwise, it’s getting ridiculous. The inconsistency and personal preferences between instructors and examiners have to stop. Unless the company specifically lays it out, they shouldn’t be dictating which distress call to use. That’s a commander’s judgment.

In reality, whether you say Mayday or Pan makes no difference to the safe conduct of the flight — yes, it affects how ATC and emergency services respond, but that’s procedural, not a measure of correctness especially for a straightforward engine failure.

Thoughts?

AA587

The First Officer was a new hire from Another legacy.. at his previous employer the drill in Wake turb was "Sturdy" inputs to rudder pedals. Quick recovery was valued over tender feet? On the new type, A300, non FBW, the Rudder was less robust ..... AirBus promised to redesign the Rudder hoops and pins.... Too bad there was no sim ride prior to his A300 assignment? I asked for the redesign prints,

"Proprietary"

[Capn Bloggs]

Fixed it for you:

Originally Posted by Detent

​​​​​​​Request We will be maintaining RWY heading to 4 NM then turning right

[Gweilo747]

I recall reading years ago on the very back of the NavBlue books (when I flew for an internationally renowned Asian airline with Australian and U.S founders, the definition of Mayday was “grave or imminent danger”. (A favourite check question amongst the “Austranauts”).

As such I was trained, above 400 feet AGL, pending no memory items required action, in agreement (or directed by the PF) to declare Mayday (X3), advise ATC the nature of the emergency, endurance remaining in minutes, Persons on Board and the intention of the Pilot in Command (EO SID instructions, climbing to at least sector MSA).

What constitutes a “grave or imminent danger” is up for debate. Would losing an engine at V1 on a B777 be considered a Mayday if the flight path is uncontrolled? We can all agree that some people will say “indeed” whilst others may say, “not necessarily”. Technically, the aircraft is certified and capable of handling this scenario, and the procedures are trained and practiced. If the flight path is controlled, no systems lost beyond the engine, and the crew is keeping up, then a Pan-Pan might suffice. But if there’s loss of control, if terrain clearance is marginal, or if there is any uncertainty about continuing safely, then it’s a Mayday.

What about losing an engine on a four engine aircraft? Most likely “no” if the aircraft is under control. At best, a Pan-Pan.

Multiple hydraulic system failures? Absolutely. Fire? Absolutely. Rapid decompression, significant fuel leak, structural issues—indeed.

My understanding (and training) is that if we declare a Mayday, the entire airport comes to a standstill—no aircraft will be given taxi instructions, and aircraft behind the Mayday aircraft will be given holding instructions. (Happy to be corrected by any folks that work in ATC).

If we declare a Pan-Pan (x3), the airport will designate a runway (pending multiple runways are available) to the emergency aircraft whilst allow the other aircraft to take off/land on the other runway(s) pending the emergency aircraft has not designated a preferential runway.

As others have mentioned (and as different instructors and examiners have debrief me over the years), we can always declare a Mayday and later downgrade it to a Pan-Pan, and vice versa.

In my humble opinion, in training you’re at the mercy of the instructor/examiner so that’s subject to their discretion whereas in the real world, depending where we are on the planet we can be offered assistance and services or refused requests till we officially declare a Mayday.

[moosepileit]

Mayday- stops the aerodrome/ATC to focus on you.

PPx3- You will advise what you are doing and what you require, Aerodrome/ATC does not stop.

Conflating the two can get your operator a bad mark in some countries. Either can be swapped or returned to normal ops.

If it's a dry simulator V1 cut, you need to communicate the engine failure procedural track/s you will fly quickly, so ATC can deconflict. Maybe frost it with an altitude passing for full radar identification and you as a crew Shirley (surely, I jest) have an altitude in mind therefor state such.

If you decide to adjust gross weight, you are covered. Aviate, navigate, communicate- But who wants to navigate when vectors above a safe MVA are available? Communicate. ATC then wants your numbers and intentions, your crew may be then getting deep in critical control manipulations, QRH procedures, etc.

Do I sound like a sim instructor? Guilty. Does it work as an effective framework in real life? Yes.

My plan- if a Mayday, I want to get fast, clean, high enough and dumped light enough that I can have another donk aschew its task. Or, I have a fire and am weighing, quickly, overweight, tailwind, off-airport or ditch.

Just as I want to see textbook v1 cuts, I want to see an expedited sub-17 minute drills for fire on/in the aircraft to Evac drill completion.

If the debrief is down to state calls of Mayday vs Pan, you are doing well.

[punkalouver]

The nice thing about Mayday is that it allows you to break rules or fly what could be considered recklessly as required in order to safely get the aircraft on the ground.

I declared a Mayday just this week. I was doing a flight in a small aircraft at an airport with an advisory service. During the fuel sampling on the aircraft, about a centimeter of rusty fluid was seen in the sample tube. After draining a bunch more fuel, no more contamination was seen. After a good run-up and significant ground operation, I decided to fly. I completed circuit with no issues, on the second climbout with intention to leave the circuit(straight ahead then 90 degree turn to the left), I had a couple of very brief misses in the engine(brief enough that I was wondering if I was just imagining it). I decided to turn downwind to stay close to the airport and then had a much longer power interruption. At that point I decided to immediately land downwind as the aircraft has a very poor glide capability and didn't want to take any further chances with this fuel contamination issue I had encountered. Now I am coming in to land in the opposite direction to the traffic which would normally be operating recklessly. Declaring the MayDay allowed me to use my command authority to do as I please to get safely on the ground and the aircraft on final went around.

The problem turned out to be a totally new separate issue with a bad mag.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Originally Posted by hans brinker

"oh, where is that in the manual?".

Followed by “I know the manual says that, but it should be xxx for yyy reasons which are my own.”