767/757 RAT

[Gin Jockey]

Hey tech nerds,

it came up on the air India accident thread about possible RAT deployment. Someone said something along the lines of “every heavy Boeing twin has a RAT”, there was another post about a 757 that had a fuel control switch shut off SNAFU and they “flew all the way to wherever with the RAT deployed”.

And I’m like, whoa, I flew thousands of hours on the 767, around 30+ airframes and none of them had a RAT. So I asked chatGPT (ok I know could be incorrect), and it said the 767 200/300 didn’t have a RAT, but the 400 did. So I posted that (i didn’t say I asked chatGPT) and a couple of people were like “this dumbass flew the 767 and didn’t know it had a RAT”, “what an idiot”, “EVERY 767 Boeing built has a RAT” etc etc.

So, normally I don’t name companies but you’ll be able to guess - I flew 767-238ER PW and 767-338ER GE and 767-336ER (leased from BA).

All of those had backup HMGs, hydraulic generators, but no RAT! The 238ERs and 338ERs were 180 min ETOPS and, from memory, the -236ERs were maybe only 120 min ETOPS, I am a little fuzzy here but that may have been because they had one less HMG than our 338s. I think 338s had 3 HMGs and the 336s had only 2.

Our 238 and 338ERs flew across the pacific constantly. On non-revenue disposal (and I assume deliveries) they flew direct east coast Aus to west coast USA.

Have I gone senile? I feel like i am taking crazy pills!

Am I a “total dumbass” as “every 767 Boeing ever delivered had a RAT!”??

Any 767 drivers, what are/were the RAT configs on your aircraft? You don’t have to name your operator/company if you don’t want to, but identify if it’s a 200/300 or 400.

[57driver]

Both 757-200 (RB211-E4) and 767-300ER (CF6-80C2) experience, both had a RAT to power flight controls only from memory (although the 767 might have done a little more, I only flew it briefly so can't remember the detail). All the 767's had HMGs (again don't remember how many) but only some of the 757's had a single HMG, the rest were non-ETOPs and had none. 757's were all passenger config, the 767's were a mixture of factory built and converted freighters.

[Downwind_Left]

757-200 RAT location

767-300 RAT Location

[skkm]

A cursory search for images of Qantas 767s on a popular airliner photos site reveals a panel with a red outline in the same place as in the image Downwind posted, and a RAM AIR TURB switch on the cockpit overhead panel.

[Gin Jockey]

Originally Posted by skkm

A cursory search for images of Qantas 767s on a popular airliner photos site reveals a panel with a red outline in the same place as in the image Downwind posted, and a RAM AIR TURB switch on the cockpit overhead panel.

I don’t think the switch was enabled, I looked at a few photos, but they are angled and I couldn’t quite see… I don’t remember it being there. it wasn’t in our dual engine fail memory items that I recall (I assume it’s like the pax O2 switch in a depress where it’s pushed to backup the automatic activation if needed).

Theres no writing/red box near the right wing root below. Please show/link me the image of a red rat 767 with the red box if you can.

[Gin Jockey]

Originally Posted by skkm

a panel with a red outline in the same place as in the image Downwind posted.

Not here either.




Interestingly enough, the aircraft above, VH-OGV is now flying with the Israeli AF (jet went to maybe freighter stateside in the interim). The photo of that below clearly shows a red outline on that panel. I remember OGV because it was the only one of the entire fleet of 238/338s that had FADEC (did the RR 336s have FADEC?). OGV went to cairns for a few years before coming back in mainline colours.

I’m thinking the following.

1. I’m completely wrong. Every 238/338 767 had a RAT; or
2. The red rat, in their infinite Wisdom, got Boeing to disable the RAT. They have a history of annoying customer options. Israeli AF (or other operator in between) re-enabled it?


ideally we need a fellow ex 767-238/338 driver to come out of the woodwork and say option 1 or 2?

[OldLurker]

I would submit that as Boeing sells parts for the RAT on various 767 models, we can fairly infer that at least some 767s are fitted with them.
See https://shop.boeing.com/cpd/bpp_258t7100-7 and other items in the shop.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

Originally Posted by Gin Jockey

I don’t think the switch was enabled, I looked at a few photos, but they are angled and I couldn’t quite see… I don’t remember it being there. it wasn’t in our dual engine fail memory items that I recall (I assume it’s like the pax O2 switch in a depress where it’s pushed to backup the automatic activation if needed).

Theres no writing/red box near the right wing root below. Please show/link me the image of a red rat 767 with the red box if you can.

Re Dual Engine failure memory items, I have got a non Qantas QRH for the 767 and the RAT is turned on after the memory items.

Can’t be much help other than that I’m afraid!

[deltahotel]

752 for 25 years, some pax some pax to freighter conversions. Alongside that for 16 years 763, some brand new freighters some conversions. They all had a RAT. 75s we’re all RR, 76 all GE. Their only function was flying control hydraulics. Hth, rgds

[Gin Jockey]

Originally Posted by OldLurker

I would submit that as Boeing sells parts for the RAT on various 767 models, we can fairly infer that at least some 767s are fitted with them.
See https://shop.boeing.com/cpd/bpp_258t7100-7 and other items in the shop.

yep, no doubt many have them, it appears most have a RAT. I don’t doubt that. There was a post of an FCOM page on the AI thread with a reference, I just wish I had old manuals to see what ours said.

[skkm]

Were the RATs possibly removed/deactivated and then reinstalled/reactivated at some point? It appears from these photos the panel is marked- on both OGx and ZXx series.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6541888
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6751952
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6809138
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7105098
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7160608
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7751036
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7962488
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9113366

[tdracer]

Gin, I was a Propulsion engineer at Boeing for 40 years - a good share of that working the 767. The RAT was basic on the 767 (and I believe the same for the 757, although no firsthand knowledge of that). It was required for cert to meet controllability requirements if both engines shutdown. Unlike the 737 (and 707/727), the 767 requires hydraulics for flight control, and windmilling engines simply don't provide sufficient hydraulic power to meet the minimum requirements. It's not optional, or removeable - it's required for cert. The HMGs were optional (added when ETOPS become the norm - ETOPS hadn't been invented at the time the 767 was originally certified), but the RAT was basic.
The 747 requires hydraulics for flight control, but (except for the 747-8), four windmilling engines would provide sufficient hydraulic power for controllability, so it didn't need a RAT.
It simply boggles my mind that you could have flown them and not known that.

[Gin Jockey]

Originally Posted by tdracer

Gin, It was required for cert to meet controllability requirements if both engines shutdown.

copy, option 1 it is. The weight of evidence points towards “I am a senile dumbass”.

as for boggling the mind, I remember many tiny details about the 767 10ish years later, but zero about the RAT. That part of my brain must be mush.

[Capt Fathom]

Both those photos in post #5 and #6 (Qantas & Australian 767's) shows the red outline at the right aft wing root!

[Gin Jockey]

Originally Posted by Capt Fathom

Both those photos in post #5 and #6 (Qantas & Australian 767's) shows the red outline at the right aft wing root!

capn, I see a black outline on post 5 when I zoom in. No writing. The black outline, a smudge of hydraulic fluid and dust/grime, of the panel looks the same as every other panel or edge e.g. gear doors, pneumatic/pack? access panels.

But… see my previous post, I have conceded on other grounds (tdracer post). I will repeat for all your collective glee, “I am an idiot.”

[Lifer01]

We deployed, modded and tested many a RAT on the 767 fleet.

QF 200ERs had one HMG, whereas the rest (including VH-EAQ) had three fitted, from memory.

[Gin Jockey]

Originally Posted by Lifer01

We deployed, modded and tested many a RAT on the 767 fleet.

Noted. I have no memory of the system. I assume manual deploy was clear plastic flip guard over push switch like a gen drive disconnect or cargo fire bottle discharge? And with equally irreversible results?

MEA CULPA.

[Lifer01]

Yes, one time action from the Flt deck on P5.

Stow switch (and back drive handle for testing) is on the keel beam in the right wheel well.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by Gin Jockey

Noted. I have no memory of the system. I assume manual deploy was clear plastic flip guard over push switch like a gen drive disconnect or cargo fire bottle discharge? And with equally irreversible results?

MEA CULPA.

We all have memories that play tricks on us sometimes. Don't beat yourself up about it.

[magyar_flyer]

Genuine question: never trained a dual engine failure in the sim ?