Callouts frenzy
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Joined: Apr 2022
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From: France
Also whilst I’m complaining - shouldn’t the call out “1000 to go” or any variation of not be based on 1,000ft barometric but on one MINUTE to go? The point of the call is awareness right? So if you’re climbing at 5,000ft/min in the TMA - at 1,000ft to go it’s a waste of time. Wouldn’t it be better to say “One minute to level” or some variation of?
Edit : just to clarify the post, I finally got the marking from that sim session. It was all standard with just a "remark" concerning the said callouts.
So not so much of a frenzy after all, thankfully !
Last edited by CVividasku; 6th April 2025 at 11:33.
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From: England
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Somewhere over the rainbow
If i fly with an eager beaver sort who calls “SPEED” when 5 or 6 knots fast when the SOP is to call 10+ then I’ll just ignore the idiot. Same for ”Three reds”. If they ask, I’ll point out the SOP and tell them I assumed they were incapacitated thus spouting rubbish which I chose to ignore.
It results in an incredible reversion to actual SOP calls rather than verbal diarrhoea.
Yes, I am that guy.
It results in an incredible reversion to actual SOP calls rather than verbal diarrhoea.
Yes, I am that guy.
Joined: Nov 2019
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From: Bradford, Ontario
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Here and there
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Somewhere over the rainbow
I should have clarified that I fly mostly in China we get up to 10 altitude clearances to our cruising level and the same goes for descent combined with many ATC calls it’s normal to miss a few. No safety issue there. It’s not an FMA call out.
Last edited by pineteam; 6th April 2025 at 23:54. Reason: Typo
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Here and there
Is it an SOP call or not? If it is, at what point do you expect the PF to call it if you've missed it? Why have you missed it? Staring out the window? Stroke? Busy with other jobs?
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Somewhere over the rainbow
I wish I had time to watch out the windows in Mainland lol. I think you need to understand the workload of flying in China combined with our very strict SOP on altitude selection; it’s impossible as PM you won’t miss the “1000 to go” once in a while. A flight to mainland you get easily 20 altitude changes in a very busy airspace and high workload. When we get an altitude clearance, the PF must wait for the PM to read back to ATC then the PF will announce the altitude and set on the FCU and point at it. then the PM must point at the FCU and announced “confirmed”. Only then the PF will use the FCU and read FMA and finally the PM will call “checked”. That process takes times. In China, ATC expects you to climb or descent at 2000 feet/min or more most of time. You get alt* before 1000 to go call out. Sometimes you only climb or descend 1000 feet. So by the time the PF reads the FMA and I checked and announced “checked”. ATC will call us again right when it’s time to call 1000 to go. Oh and we fly in meters and sometimes in QFE in military airports. So every time we need to convert the meters into feet using a chart and another chart for QFE when applicable; And the fact ATC speaks in mandarin and a lot does not help either. In my outfit there is no requirement for the PF to announce it if the PM misses it. It’s really not the priority considering how busy it is.There is a reason why captains get ones the the highest salary working for mainland carriers. The workload is much higher than anywhere else I flew. Every time I fly out of China it feels like vacation. I don’t fly for a mainland carrier; I only did wet lease for one of them.
Today I flew to Beijing and we got these altitude clearance: 1200m, 2700m, 3300m 3600m , 5100m, 6000m, 6300m 8100m, 8900m, 9200m, 10100m and 11300m. Then for descent: 10700m, 10100m, 6300m, 5700m, 5400m, 4500m, 2700m, 2400m and finally 1200m.
Today I flew to Beijing and we got these altitude clearance: 1200m, 2700m, 3300m 3600m , 5100m, 6000m, 6300m 8100m, 8900m, 9200m, 10100m and 11300m. Then for descent: 10700m, 10100m, 6300m, 5700m, 5400m, 4500m, 2700m, 2400m and finally 1200m.
Last edited by pineteam; 7th April 2025 at 04:25. Reason: Typo
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Here and there
That's nice. None of that is reason to get annoyed at the PF making a call you've missed, for whatever reason. If the call is SOP then the company think it is important. If you've missed it, you've missed it, that's fine, but don't get annoyed at the other guy for making the call instead. They're not doing it to make you feel bad or to subtly point out you've made a mistake.
You'll also see I allowed for "busy with other jobs" as a reason to have missed it, it's fine to miss the call, but a good crew member will notice that someone has missed a call and make the call themselves, if only to make sure you are all in the loop and no one has just had a brain bleed and started drooling. I'd be annoyed at the call being jumped on, but if a reasonable time has passed, it seems like good CRM to make it.
You'll also see I allowed for "busy with other jobs" as a reason to have missed it, it's fine to miss the call, but a good crew member will notice that someone has missed a call and make the call themselves, if only to make sure you are all in the loop and no one has just had a brain bleed and started drooling. I'd be annoyed at the call being jumped on, but if a reasonable time has passed, it seems like good CRM to make it.
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Somewhere over the rainbow
I agree with you. My point is like you mentioned earlier: The guys calling 1000 to go too early that really annoy me. Especially when they are the ones who will miss half of them when they are PM lol. Personally if they miss it I don’t call it since it’s not required in my company.
Joined: May 2007
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From: Somewhere at the Milky Way
The 1000 to go, when called from the PF, has a couple of purposes: 1- someone is monitoring the flight path 2- include the whole crew to the loop by increasing situational awareness of the team (and this is how it is defined on our SOP), and to let the PM know about the progress of the flight since PM might be busy playing secretary for the company 3- make sure nobody has gone incapacitated at some stage.
I agree the ones calling just passing their 1000 to go on their altimeter is annoying, since probably my altimeter has not gone through yet but about to go. I usually wait past 300ft (definition of occupied FL/altitude), and then call 700ft to go.
By the way, it is amazing how much paperwork / tablet work the PM has to sort out for the company these days.
I agree the ones calling just passing their 1000 to go on their altimeter is annoying, since probably my altimeter has not gone through yet but about to go. I usually wait past 300ft (definition of occupied FL/altitude), and then call 700ft to go.
By the way, it is amazing how much paperwork / tablet work the PM has to sort out for the company these days.
Joined: Jul 2018
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From: on the edge.
I wish I had time to watch out the windows in Mainland lol. I think you need to understand the workload of flying in China combined with our very strict SOP on altitude selection; it’s impossible as PM you won’t miss the “1000 to go” once in a while. A flight to mainland you get easily 20 altitude changes in a very busy airspace and high workload. When we get an altitude clearance, the PF must wait for the PM to read back to ATC then the PF will announce the altitude and set on the FCU and point at it. then the PM must point at the FCU and announced “confirmed”. Only then the PF will use the FCU and read FMA and finally the PM will call “checked”. That process takes times. In China, ATC expects you to climb or descent at 2000 feet/min or more most of time. You get alt* before 1000 to go call out. Sometimes you only climb or descend 1000 feet. So by the time the PF reads the FMA and I checked and announced “checked”. ATC will call us again right when it’s time to call 1000 to go. Oh and we fly in meters and sometimes in QFE in military airports. So every time we need to convert the meters into feet using a chart and another chart for QFE when applicable; And the fact ATC speaks in mandarin and a lot does not help either. In my outfit there is no requirement for the PF to announce it if the PM misses it. It’s really not the priority considering how busy it is.There is a reason why captains get ones the the highest salary working for mainland carriers. The workload is much higher than anywhere else I flew. Every time I fly out of China it feels like vacation. I don’t fly for a mainland carrier; I only did wet lease for one of them.
Today I flew to Beijing and we got these altitude clearance: 1200m, 2700m, 3300m 3600m , 5100m, 6000m, 6300m 8100m, 8900m, 9200m, 10100m and 11300m. Then for descent: 10700m, 10100m, 6300m, 5700m, 5400m, 4500m, 2700m, 2400m and finally 1200m.
Today I flew to Beijing and we got these altitude clearance: 1200m, 2700m, 3300m 3600m , 5100m, 6000m, 6300m 8100m, 8900m, 9200m, 10100m and 11300m. Then for descent: 10700m, 10100m, 6300m, 5700m, 5400m, 4500m, 2700m, 2400m and finally 1200m.
I personally fly to China 3/4 times per month so i know well what you mean with staggered climb or descent..nevertheless i will call the 1000 to go in case the PM misses it.
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From: Somewhere over the rainbow
I’m not saying it’s wrong not calling it. That’s up to you or should I say to your SOP. Our SOP does not mandate the PF to do the call out and it makes sense IMHO.
I just apply common sense. If the PM forgets it; Not a big deal unless it’s intentional; A few seconds later if not already the case, I will call ALT* and the PM will call “checked” immediately after. So the situation awareness is there. The PM is supposed to be always monitoring the PFD at this stage anyway. Obviously we all get distracted and do mistakes but that call out is really not critical if omitted when you get 10 steps climbs combined with double confirmation required for altitude selection by the PF and PM. We are definitely both on high alert and glue to that PFD. In almost 11 years flying the Bus, I never had or heard any issue related to that call out being missed. I rather focus on the FMA and proper altitude selection ( altitude burst is a serious event in my outfit).
I just apply common sense. If the PM forgets it; Not a big deal unless it’s intentional; A few seconds later if not already the case, I will call ALT* and the PM will call “checked” immediately after. So the situation awareness is there. The PM is supposed to be always monitoring the PFD at this stage anyway. Obviously we all get distracted and do mistakes but that call out is really not critical if omitted when you get 10 steps climbs combined with double confirmation required for altitude selection by the PF and PM. We are definitely both on high alert and glue to that PFD. In almost 11 years flying the Bus, I never had or heard any issue related to that call out being missed. I rather focus on the FMA and proper altitude selection ( altitude burst is a serious event in my outfit).
Last edited by pineteam; 7th April 2025 at 09:37. Reason: Typo
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2022
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From: France
To me, it sounds like a bad excuse to enforce an invading discipline. If you're having an important chat with ATC, the "1000 to go" is clearly secondary, I'm sure you would agree with that ?
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Here and there
Yes of course. Obviously a PM who is busy talking to ATC is not incapacitated. Fitting SOP calls around other high priority tasks is expected.
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Here and there
Our SOP doesn’t specifically state the 1000 to go call should be made by the PF if the PM misses it, instead it says that any call missed by the PM should be made by the PF.
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From: on the edge.
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From: Somewhere over the rainbow
We don’t have this in our SOP; But I can think of 10 procedures/flows we have on top of Airbus SOP that you guys don’t have: Does it mean your outfit is less professional or unsafe? Certainly not, the opposite I would say. If SOP were written by pilots it would be much more practical, flexible and less talking. When ATC calls you while doing the checklist do you announce as PF: “Hold checklist at XXX” and “resume checklist at XXX” ? This is written black and white in the FCOM. 7500hr+ on the Airbus, I never heard anyone announcing: “hold checklist at” for the simple fact you need to focus on the ATC call and therefore common sense prevails and both pilots will just keep quiet, listen to ATC then eventually resume the checklist. The FCTM will also tell you to check that the seat belt sign is ON by looking at the ecam memo. Works great on older models, not at all on the newer one who has the auto position; if you don’t check the actual switch, and leave it on auto, the seat belt sign will be showing on the memo. But once airborne after flaps zero the seat belt will go off automatically… what about during taxi out or after landing for the weather radar and PWS? Airbus will tell you to check the actual switches. Why? On A320 we don’t have automatic shut down of the Weather radar like A380; You can just check on your ND (for Weather radar ) and the Ecam Memo for the PWS. There is no need to go heads-down and check the switches. SOP are a guidance and does not mean we must follow them 100% like robots. If SOP were so perfect Airbus would not be changing them all the times…
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From: away from home
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From: South Africa
I think the 1000ft to go call from pm is to bring awareness to the pf that he/she is approaching the assigned level/altitude.. If I am pilot flying and the pm forgets the 1000ft to go call, and I notice it, I don’t call it because I am already aware, and come on a cockpit is only so big of course i can see if the pm is incapacitated or just busy with paperwork or picking his nose.. of course if he misses every single 1000ft to go then there is something wrong, but missing one or two calls here and there because you are busy with something else is normal!