Flysmart EOSID legal status
Eidolon
Joined: May 2001
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From: Some hole
Dear colleagues, I have a little doubt here. Is ATC aware about Special Engine Out SIDs published by Airbus Flysmart? I don't see them on Jeppesen Charts. So, are we supposed to fly it without a prior coordination with ATC or we have to inform ATC that we have this procedure and are about to execute it?
Thank you.
Thank you.
As to calling mayday or pan, are you departing from a single runway airport, or a 2/3/4 runway configuration. If im going to cross the departure of another runway, it would be a mayday for me, there is a potential imminent danger of collision.
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: ???
They are relevant. Whats wrong with making a Pan call followed by “Require XYZ”. ATC will not deny it. If they do, then upgrade it to Mayday. No need to jump straight into mayday simply because you are unable to comply with ATC instructions.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Europe
The text in the flysmart app has nothing to do with Airbus, it is an operator defined field. The procedure comes from your airline. Airbus has little or no knowledge of company specific EO SIDs.
As to calling mayday or pan, are you departing from a single runway airport, or a 2/3/4 runway configuration. If im going to cross the departure of another runway, it would be a mayday for me, there is a potential imminent danger of collision.
As to calling mayday or pan, are you departing from a single runway airport, or a 2/3/4 runway configuration. If im going to cross the departure of another runway, it would be a mayday for me, there is a potential imminent danger of collision.
Having said that, following all EOSIDS I have come across, I would call a mayday for the engine failure to begin with. That should alert ATC. Thereafter I will TELL them of my intentions. In that order.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Europe
§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.
Aviate, navigate, communicate. It’s the nature of the emergency in itself that allows you to deviate from your clearance, not the words mayday in itself. Don’t get me wrong, I have no hesitation to declare an emergency, especially at the early stages of an engine failure after takeoff. I just want to make sure we don’t put the cart before the horse. The controller is not in command, we are.
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Having a margarita on the beach
I think every rulebook every written regarding aviation contains a version of the following:
Aviate, navigate, communicate. It’s the nature of the emergency in itself that allows you to deviate from your clearance, not the words mayday in itself. Don’t get me wrong, I have no hesitation to declare an emergency, especially at the early stages of an engine failure after takeoff. I just want to make sure we don’t put the cart before the horse. The controller is not in command, we are.
Really? I thought controllers were in charge. Good to know.
We are not obviously talking about the safest course of action, which we are going to implement regardless of the phraseology being used (so your comment about putting the cart before the horse is irrelevant).
We are discussing the fact that you are not alone in the sky, and that a distress message will allow the necessary actions from ATC and other aircrafts to keep you clear of other traffic whilst maneuvering in the interest of safety.
With that being said, are you starting your EOSID before declaring a mayday? Of course you do (fly navigate communicate as you kindly taught us all) but as soon as the situation allows proper communication is required. Is the failure so catastrophic that there’s no chance to speak a single word to ATC? Fair enough.
Last edited by sonicbum; 12th December 2024 at 18:49.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Europe
We are also discussing the legality of an EOSID, see the question in the title. So I commented on the notion that a PAN does not allow you to deviate from the route.
I fully agree with you, as you can read in my prior posts, that your intentions should be made clear as soon and as urgently as required, but I question the assertion that a MAYDAY would allow you to do more than a PAN. PAN and MAYDAYs are (very effective) attention getters, not legal vehicles.
If, like in your ‘Paris at 9AM’ scenario you think a MAYDAY is the best way to get the necessary attention from sub standard controllers, then by all means. But isn’t that subject to your trust in the Paris controllers, and not per se the legality of a MAYDAY call? Exactly the same legal outcome can be achieved with a PAN call: PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN, engine failure, flying straight ahead for twenty miles, standby for further intentions.
I fully agree with you, as you can read in my prior posts, that your intentions should be made clear as soon and as urgently as required, but I question the assertion that a MAYDAY would allow you to do more than a PAN. PAN and MAYDAYs are (very effective) attention getters, not legal vehicles.
If, like in your ‘Paris at 9AM’ scenario you think a MAYDAY is the best way to get the necessary attention from sub standard controllers, then by all means. But isn’t that subject to your trust in the Paris controllers, and not per se the legality of a MAYDAY call? Exactly the same legal outcome can be achieved with a PAN call: PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN, engine failure, flying straight ahead for twenty miles, standby for further intentions.
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From: Hong Kong
Joined: Jan 2024
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From: Finland
Some people seem to have preference of pan-pan over mayday. Is there some extra ”costs” (paperwork, etc…) involved in their operational envioroment? Or what’s the reason to restrain from mayday?
I ask this, because in my enviroment it’s either mayday, if I want something from the ATC, or if not, then ”For your information we have… and request…”). Only time I would use pan- pan is if I didn’t have emergency onboard but needed to cut in between transimissions.
I ask this, because in my enviroment it’s either mayday, if I want something from the ATC, or if not, then ”For your information we have… and request…”). Only time I would use pan- pan is if I didn’t have emergency onboard but needed to cut in between transimissions.
Last edited by mechpowi; 13th December 2024 at 13:58.
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Having a margarita on the beach
We are also discussing the legality of an EOSID, see the question in the title. So I commented on the notion that a PAN does not allow you to deviate from the route.
I fully agree with you, as you can read in my prior posts, that your intentions should be made clear as soon and as urgently as required, but I question the assertion that a MAYDAY would allow you to do more than a PAN. PAN and MAYDAYs are (very effective) attention getters, not legal vehicles.
I fully agree with you, as you can read in my prior posts, that your intentions should be made clear as soon and as urgently as required, but I question the assertion that a MAYDAY would allow you to do more than a PAN. PAN and MAYDAYs are (very effective) attention getters, not legal vehicles.
5.3.1.1 Distress and urgency traffic shall comprise all radiotelephony messages relative to the distress and urgency conditions respectively.
Distress and urgency conditions are defined as: a) Distress: a condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency: a condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.
Pan and mayday are well-defined distress and urgency signals with a specific meaning, hence legality is a factor when opting for one or the other.
If, like in your ‘Paris at 9AM’ scenario you think a MAYDAY is the best way to get the necessary attention from sub standard controllers, then by all means. But isn’t that subject to your trust in the Paris controllers, and not per se the legality of a MAYDAY call? Exactly the same legal outcome can be achieved with a PAN call: PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN, engine failure, flying straight ahead for twenty miles, standby for further intentions.
If You deviate from your clearance (SID) to fly your EOSID it means you require immediate assistance, otherwise you would just keep flying your SID or coordinate other routings with ATC. You can't just start turning all over the airspace and pretend people will read your mind on what your intentions are.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Europe
If You deviate from your clearance (SID) to fly your EOSID it means you require immediate assistance, otherwise you would just keep flying your SID or coordinate other routings with ATC. You can't just start turning all over the airspace and pretend people will read your mind on what your intentions are.
-Deviating from an SID is not an emergency in itself.
-Turn the question around, do you have less legal authority as a captain if you fail to call MAYDAY after an engine failure but otherwise communicate your intentions and situation?
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Europe
Some people seem to have preference of pan-pan over mayday. Is there some extra ”costs” (paperwork, etc…) involved in their operational envioroment? Or what’s the reason to restrain from mayday?
I ask this, because in my enviroment it’s either mayday, if I want something from the ATC, or if not, then ”For your information we have… and request…”). Only time I would use pan- pan is if I didn’t have emergency onboard but needed to cut in between transimissions.
I ask this, because in my enviroment it’s either mayday, if I want something from the ATC, or if not, then ”For your information we have… and request…”). Only time I would use pan- pan is if I didn’t have emergency onboard but needed to cut in between transimissions.
I guess it depends on your definition of distress and urgency. I have no hesitation to call MAYDAY after a sudden engine failure on takeoff. But neither do I have any hesitation to 'downgrade' this MAYDAY to a PAN once the situation is under control, everyone is aware of our situation, and we are flying back for a controlled single engine landing.
I have once used PAN to convey to the controller the urgency we had on board and it worked a charm (as it should). I would have used MAYDAY if he remained unconvinced and the situation deteriorated.
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: USA
As someone who over the course of 25 years has had more than their fair share of situations that required the emergency checklist, both operating/registered in the EU and the US, this is what I did and how it worked out:
I declared an emergency (Mayday x 3, or in the US "declaring an emergency").
We did what we needed to do.
We told ATC what we did/needed.
We landed safely.
We filed a report.
Never had any questions about doing it that way. I know it is only a sample of just over 10, but still...
I declared an emergency (Mayday x 3, or in the US "declaring an emergency").
We did what we needed to do.
We told ATC what we did/needed.
We landed safely.
We filed a report.
Never had any questions about doing it that way. I know it is only a sample of just over 10, but still...
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Having a margarita on the beach
-No one on this thread suggests that you should 'just start turning all over the airspace'.
-Deviating from an SID is not an emergency in itself.
-Turn the question around, do you have less legal authority as a captain if you fail to call MAYDAY after an engine failure but otherwise communicate your intentions and situation?
-Deviating from an SID is not an emergency in itself.
-Turn the question around, do you have less legal authority as a captain if you fail to call MAYDAY after an engine failure but otherwise communicate your intentions and situation?
If You declare nothing in terms of Urgency or Distress with an engine failure, in terms of ATC you will always have the same priority as any other traffic and will be expected to behave as any other traffic, i.e. comply with your clearance. This is what happens on a Quad where you will be able to keep flying the cleared routing but it’s a completely different story on twin.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,605
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From: Having a margarita on the beach
As someone who over the course of 25 years has had more than their fair share of situations that required the emergency checklist, both operating/registered in the EU and the US, this is what I did and how it worked out:
I declared an emergency (Mayday x 3, or in the US "declaring an emergency").
We did what we needed to do.
We told ATC what we did/needed.
We landed safely.
We filed a report.
Never had any questions about doing it that way. I know it is only a sample of just over 10, but still...
I declared an emergency (Mayday x 3, or in the US "declaring an emergency").
We did what we needed to do.
We told ATC what we did/needed.
We landed safely.
We filed a report.
Never had any questions about doing it that way. I know it is only a sample of just over 10, but still...
Joined: May 2007
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From: Somewhere at the Milky Way
Agreed with the above, loosing all of a sudden one engine on a twin, for me, its a Mayday, spoken at the earliest opportunity to ATC. Gives me full access to all emergency equipment and priority to do whatever my airline wants me to fly (EO-SID). With a Mayday, now it is ATC's job to empty the airspace for me (I would telling them what my intentions are).
Now, EO-SID is very particular to every airline. I´ve seen 2 different ones when comparing to a friend's flying for another major, same aircraft type, same RWY and airfield. ATC does not have a clue about EO-SIDS as they are, as written at ICAO 8168, the operator's responsibility to check a convenient departure path if something goes wrong.
And then, some airlines will prefer the flight crew fly an easy, straight EO-SID while others prefer to maximise the allowable take off mass and then propose to fly a complicated one. Depends on each airline.
Now, EO-SID is very particular to every airline. I´ve seen 2 different ones when comparing to a friend's flying for another major, same aircraft type, same RWY and airfield. ATC does not have a clue about EO-SIDS as they are, as written at ICAO 8168, the operator's responsibility to check a convenient departure path if something goes wrong.
And then, some airlines will prefer the flight crew fly an easy, straight EO-SID while others prefer to maximise the allowable take off mass and then propose to fly a complicated one. Depends on each airline.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Europe
You cannot -from a regulations perspective- deviate from a cleared routing (SID in this case) unless You coordinate an alternative routing (eg. wx avoidance headings or rerouting) or declare at the very least a state of urgency or distress. You are confusing the authority of the PIC which is always to act in the interest of safety even if this goes against rules and regulations with compliance with said rules and regulations.
.
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The main thing is that you communicate your intentions clearly, I think we all agree on that. Simply calling mayday will just illicit more distracting questions from ATC. Give them something to work with, enough so they can formulate their own plan, and to give them (and all the other traffic around you) a sense of your level of immediate danger.
Also think of the bigger picture. Calling MAYDAY during the initial confusion of an engine failure? Absolutely. Causing mass diversion whilst you are subsequently in the EOSID hold briefing the minutiae of your single engine ILS, still on a MAYDAY, well…subject for discussion!
Last edited by PENKO; 15th December 2024 at 08:44.
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Having a margarita on the beach
The main thing is that you communicate your intentions clearly, I think we all agree on that. Simply calling mayday will just illicit more distracting questions from ATC. Give them something to work with, enough so they can formulate their own plan, and to give them (and all the other traffic around you) a sense of your level of immediate danger.
Also think of the bigger picture. Calling MAYDAY during the initial confusion of an engine failure? Absolutely. Causing mass diversion whilst you are subsequently in the EOSID hold briefing the minutiae of your single engine ILS, still on a MAYDAY, well…subject for discussion!
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Europe
Sorry sonicbum, I do not agree with this reasoning.
Anyway, regarding the multiple runways, what you say is not always correct. Just recently I and all other inbound traffic have been put in the hold on arrival to a major European airport because they had inbound MAYDAY traffic. None of the six runways were available to us, ALL arrivals were suspended until the MAYDAY aircraft had landed safely. And probably for the same reason you mention for a single runway airport: ‘what if someone else messes up’.
Things are not always that black and white.
This is just one example, I can name a few others, but the main point is, calling a mayday will have an effect on everyone else around you, and rightly so. Just don’t forget that if the situation allows, you can always downgrade to a PAN, or at least accurately inform everyone around you of your real level of urgency so that they can assess their own priorities more accurately.
Anyway, regarding the multiple runways, what you say is not always correct. Just recently I and all other inbound traffic have been put in the hold on arrival to a major European airport because they had inbound MAYDAY traffic. None of the six runways were available to us, ALL arrivals were suspended until the MAYDAY aircraft had landed safely. And probably for the same reason you mention for a single runway airport: ‘what if someone else messes up’.
Things are not always that black and white.
This is just one example, I can name a few others, but the main point is, calling a mayday will have an effect on everyone else around you, and rightly so. Just don’t forget that if the situation allows, you can always downgrade to a PAN, or at least accurately inform everyone around you of your real level of urgency so that they can assess their own priorities more accurately.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,605
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From: Having a margarita on the beach
Just recently I and all other inbound traffic have been put in the hold on arrival to a major European airport because they had inbound MAYDAY traffic. None of the six runways were available to us, ALL arrivals were suspended until the MAYDAY aircraft had landed safely. And probably for the same reason you mention for a single runway airport: ‘what if someone else messes up’.
Things are not always that black and white.
Things are not always that black and white.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,185
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From: Lost again...
I confess that i've not read all the posts in this thread so i may be covering ground already covered...
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
Absolutely.
In busy IFR controlled airspace "communicate" is an intrinsic part of "aviate".
Certainly you don't want to be waffling on the radio as the ASI slows below stall speed, but there is no point in pulling off the save of the century if you then fly into someone else afterwards.
It was what was called Airmanship when I learned to fly.
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate.
Absolutely.
In busy IFR controlled airspace "communicate" is an intrinsic part of "aviate".
Certainly you don't want to be waffling on the radio as the ASI slows below stall speed, but there is no point in pulling off the save of the century if you then fly into someone else afterwards.
It was what was called Airmanship when I learned to fly.
