A320 - landing with manual thrust?
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 39
From: Wanderlust
Airbus with stick free maintains 1g flight and wings level or whatever bank pilot has given. So in airbus FBW you don't fly but make changes and aircraft will maintain that unless pilot changes that again. Stick has no feed back. It's left alone most of the time. When one flies raw data very infrequently it's the instrument scan that deteriorates and creates problem as long as scan remains OK average performance is possible. B737 flight path is speed stable and changes pitch with speed and thrust changes which need to be countered and manually trimmed. For that reason there's tactile feed back in form of q feel is provided. Infreqent handling caused this feel also to deteriorate along with scan. B737 won't maintain bank either or wings level beyond it's stability. So yes, A320 needs much less handling practice. How less depends on individual skill.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 12
Likes: 5
I tend to disagree with some of the above said.
In the early 2000 my company hired a few Swissair F/O. Those pilots had exclusively flown the A320 after leaving flight school. As our A320-fleet did not need anyone at that time, they had to fly a conventional aircraft. It took them approximately one hour of simulator training to adapt the lack of autotrim, even though they had never flown an conventional airliner before.
In my opinion - and I have flown conventional aircraft as well as Airbus FBW for more than 10 years (each) - normal law (= bank- and g-stable) does not make flying that easy, that you don't have to train manual flying. To test handflying skills, it was pretty common to challenge new pilots with an raw data manually flown NDB-approach in the sim. In my experience the results were the same in the EFIS 737 Classic and A320, which shows, that trimming the aircraft and correcting bank is not a gamechanger!
I agree, that - as vilas stated - the scan is vital. However: Following an FD with A/THR on will not help to improve scanning. The only way to accomplish that is raw data flying, which should be practiced more than in the mandatory simulator sessions. For decades A/THR on with A/P off was forbidden in my company. I am not aware of an low speed landing incident in our A320 fleet (35 years!).
In the early 2000 my company hired a few Swissair F/O. Those pilots had exclusively flown the A320 after leaving flight school. As our A320-fleet did not need anyone at that time, they had to fly a conventional aircraft. It took them approximately one hour of simulator training to adapt the lack of autotrim, even though they had never flown an conventional airliner before.
In my opinion - and I have flown conventional aircraft as well as Airbus FBW for more than 10 years (each) - normal law (= bank- and g-stable) does not make flying that easy, that you don't have to train manual flying. To test handflying skills, it was pretty common to challenge new pilots with an raw data manually flown NDB-approach in the sim. In my experience the results were the same in the EFIS 737 Classic and A320, which shows, that trimming the aircraft and correcting bank is not a gamechanger!
I agree, that - as vilas stated - the scan is vital. However: Following an FD with A/THR on will not help to improve scanning. The only way to accomplish that is raw data flying, which should be practiced more than in the mandatory simulator sessions. For decades A/THR on with A/P off was forbidden in my company. I am not aware of an low speed landing incident in our A320 fleet (35 years!).
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 39
From: Wanderlust
normal law (= bank- and g-stable) does not make flying that easy
In case of Kenya 737 the 10° bank kept increasing as it will went past 40° causing "bank angle" warning which confused pilot and mishandled bank and aircraft went on it's back to crash in the swamp. All this won't happen in Airbus. So it makes a difference. It relives some requirements in scan. B737 have also crashed on go around because of vicious pitch up after TOGA which pilot didn't control because he thought AP was on.
Joined: Jan 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,410
Likes: 46
From: Between a rock and a hard place
Is the Airbus really that magic you only have to fly two approaches manually per year to be top notch ?
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,633
Likes: 137
From: USA
I think some people are giving the A320 normal law too much credit. Yes it dos make life easier, but I've made a mess of things before. On one particular occasion, I was simply rusty and was on the edge of needing to go around. Thankfully the only thing I damaged was my ego. The next approach was raw data and I felt my skill and confidence returning.
Maybe I'm not quite as average as I think I am, but on every type I've flown, the more flying I do, the better I am at it. Some of us need to keep working at it to maintain proficiency.
Plus, it's fun
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 744
From: UK
I don't think that many of us would prefer to go back to operating a manual choke in our cars - these days the electronics do that for us. I don't think many of us driving auto gearbox cars would prefer to go back to changing gear and pushing the clutch manually - certainly not in traffic jams.
I don't think many pilots would prefer to go back to using paper charts and a CRP-5 for navigation; the modern electronics do a much better job. These auto aids leave the pilots freer to be more aware of busy airspace around them and manage the overall flight more efficiently.
Of course, pilots do need to be able to fly safely when the electronics are not available, so we do need to do something to keep our manual skills and our instrument scans from rusting too far. e.g. 3 mandated manually flown raw data ILS approaches each, in every 6 month period.
Joined: Jan 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,410
Likes: 46
From: Between a rock and a hard place
If you mean that the chore of trimming has been designed-out, and path stability designed-in on the A320 family; well that's technological progress.
Trimming, undestanding the aerodynamics, is just such a fundamental part of flying. It's something you drill into the students from the very beginning of flight training. Proper trimming frees up a lot of spare mental capacity, it's important you get that right. I had students well into the Multi-Engine Instrument phase struggle with trimming when workload increased. I am thinking of several airliner accidents where the crew have struggled with a plane severely out of trim. Addmitedly some 737s, which ironically will be held against me now 
I just think it's a bit bold calling trimming 'a chore'.Progress and technology, yes, I agree. It's marvelous. The Airbus FBW is easier to fly than speed stable aircraft. I just prefer the latter, it makes me feel like I am in an airplane and not a rocket
Joined: Sep 2008
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 940
Likes: 57
From: Scotland
What’s the piloting task? Controlling the flight path of the aircraft, or wrestling with control system artefacts?
There is a fascinating talk elsewhere on the interweb from a USAF Test Pilot at MIT talking about how different pilot groups use certain aspects of their flying task as part of their self-image and culture.
I love hand flying and routinely teach an demo visuals and raw data approaches but I’m equally grateful for the efforts of a huge number of engineers and test pilots who ensure I don’t have too many aircraft deficiencies to fight on a normal day.
There is a fascinating talk elsewhere on the interweb from a USAF Test Pilot at MIT talking about how different pilot groups use certain aspects of their flying task as part of their self-image and culture.
I love hand flying and routinely teach an demo visuals and raw data approaches but I’m equally grateful for the efforts of a huge number of engineers and test pilots who ensure I don’t have too many aircraft deficiencies to fight on a normal day.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 543
Likes: 339
From: Blue sky
Because you said so yourself, I'll have a go :-)
Yes, because there is a design issue, and the "way out" called the "rollercoaster" is nothing but a very military archaic maneuver which is now banned from the books in the interest of safety of people in the back. The situation would be similar to a Cessna where the instructor would just trim down in cruise and tell the student to keep the pitch up and the student is not allowed to touch the trim. Do we practice that? Is that a check requirement? No it is not on a SEP. So this situation does not hold it's place to defend manual trimming skills. Because you simply CAN'T manually trim a 737 in high speed.
But to me the essence is still the same. Many people will defend the "practice", so will I. However the reason for the practice is completely different. It is a skill you need to keep up because you can be dispatched with A/T inop. However, when it comes to defining good and bad pilots, it is highly overrated. For that to happen, too many times I've been in the sim wondering why my PF decided to handfly because he can and he has less confidence in the AP compared to his own skill. People that experience a "threat" will resort to a situation in which they feel the most comfortable. This results in many times people swearing on raw-data skills prefer to hand-fly a lot longer when the AP is actually a lot easier. Which leads to a lot of other issues (PM workload ie). It's a false sense of own capabilities compared to the evolution in automation. And that is an equally big threat on the flightdeck. Ego is a bitch.
Yes, because there is a design issue, and the "way out" called the "rollercoaster" is nothing but a very military archaic maneuver which is now banned from the books in the interest of safety of people in the back. The situation would be similar to a Cessna where the instructor would just trim down in cruise and tell the student to keep the pitch up and the student is not allowed to touch the trim. Do we practice that? Is that a check requirement? No it is not on a SEP. So this situation does not hold it's place to defend manual trimming skills. Because you simply CAN'T manually trim a 737 in high speed.
But to me the essence is still the same. Many people will defend the "practice", so will I. However the reason for the practice is completely different. It is a skill you need to keep up because you can be dispatched with A/T inop. However, when it comes to defining good and bad pilots, it is highly overrated. For that to happen, too many times I've been in the sim wondering why my PF decided to handfly because he can and he has less confidence in the AP compared to his own skill. People that experience a "threat" will resort to a situation in which they feel the most comfortable. This results in many times people swearing on raw-data skills prefer to hand-fly a lot longer when the AP is actually a lot easier. Which leads to a lot of other issues (PM workload ie). It's a false sense of own capabilities compared to the evolution in automation. And that is an equally big threat on the flightdeck. Ego is a bitch.
Last edited by BraceBrace; 20th September 2024 at 08:45.
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 744
From: UK
I don't agree with your use of 'arrogant', 172_driver, but you do say it's not your first language, so no worries
A chore is something which is a bit of a nuisance that you don't enjoy having to do, but have to do repeatedly, e.g. washing the dishes, or ironing your shirts. If our car steering needed to be trimmed after every speed change to keep going straight rather than veering off to one side; that would be a chore and we would wish it could be designed-out.
That's how I view trimming. I can do it without thinking, because the SEP and MEP types I trained on, and 'my' first four commercial passenger aircraft types were all conventionally trimmed. So I learned to do it and scan for it subconsciously. But I don't enjoy having to do it, and the engineer in me always wished it could be designed-out.
Then along came Airbus and their A320 family FBW, which did just that. Happy Days
Some pilots prefer the conventional aircraft system and like to feel what the wing is doing etc., which is absolutely fine. Some drivers prefer driving with a manual gearbox and clutch, whereas others are happy with a modern electronically controlled DSG. But drivers with manual gearboxes are not necessarily better drivers than those with DSGs.
The engineer in me appreciates how Airbus designed the A320 family, and I personally am very comfortable with the FBW and its excellent integrated auto-thrust.
.
A chore is something which is a bit of a nuisance that you don't enjoy having to do, but have to do repeatedly, e.g. washing the dishes, or ironing your shirts. If our car steering needed to be trimmed after every speed change to keep going straight rather than veering off to one side; that would be a chore and we would wish it could be designed-out.
That's how I view trimming. I can do it without thinking, because the SEP and MEP types I trained on, and 'my' first four commercial passenger aircraft types were all conventionally trimmed. So I learned to do it and scan for it subconsciously. But I don't enjoy having to do it, and the engineer in me always wished it could be designed-out.
Then along came Airbus and their A320 family FBW, which did just that. Happy Days
Some pilots prefer the conventional aircraft system and like to feel what the wing is doing etc., which is absolutely fine. Some drivers prefer driving with a manual gearbox and clutch, whereas others are happy with a modern electronically controlled DSG. But drivers with manual gearboxes are not necessarily better drivers than those with DSGs.
The engineer in me appreciates how Airbus designed the A320 family, and I personally am very comfortable with the FBW and its excellent integrated auto-thrust.
.
Last edited by Uplinker; 20th September 2024 at 09:27.
Joined: Jan 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,410
Likes: 46
From: Between a rock and a hard place
Because you said so yourself, I'll have a go :-)
A chore is something which is a bit of a nuisance that you don't enjoy having to do, but have to do repeatedly, e.g. washing the dishes, or ironing your shirts.
I've got about 6 months of FBW after 15 years trimming. It's not that I don't like it, but it feels 'synthetic'. How will pilots that's never been used to trimming cope when they're put in a situation where they have to? On the other hand, it does not seem to generate a lot of heartache so perhaps there are other elements of flying we need to worry about more. Instrument scan and pitch+power for instance.
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 744
From: UK
.......I've got about 6 months of FBW after 15 years trimming. It's not that I don't like it, but it feels 'synthetic'. How will pilots that's never been used to trimming cope when they're put in a situation where they have to? On the other hand, it does not seem to generate a lot of heartache so perhaps there are other elements of flying we need to worry about more. Instrument scan and pitch+power for instance.
As far as 'synthetic', I kind of know what you mean, but I had no problem converting from basic conventional*, and am happy that the FBW is always in circuit assisting me, (in Normal Law). By switching off the autopilot, you are not switching off the FBW, but instead you are changing where the FBW gets its 'steering' commands: from the MCP/FMGS to your side-stick. So it still assists you even when flying manually.
* I did have to train myself to use the side-stick properly though; since instructors were very confusing about how to use it, and none of them explained it very well.
.
Last edited by Uplinker; 20th September 2024 at 10:45.
Only half a speed-brake
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,459
Likes: 136
From: Commuting not home
Joined: Sep 2024
Posts: 9
Likes: 1
From: Surrey
Continuing the off topic topic, I lost my medical 10 years ago so now just fly a 73-8 Sim down at Shoreham, but the great thing about bringing in the automatics, then switching back to manual, is there are times when a student has totally lost the plot, can't get stabilised on approach, can't fly a hold properly. Just push the Auto pilot switch with heading select and let the aircraft sort it out. Watch in wonder the 7000 revolutions of the trim wheel and ask yourself how anyone could get *that* out of trim. Give it a moment or two, switch out the autos and hey presto they are back in control and in perfect trim.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,633
Likes: 137
From: USA
Sorry to hear about your medical. Hope you’re doing well.
I see the utility in that approach, but isn’t there something inherently dangerous about depending on the AP to sort things out for you? I recall an accident where the crew was trying to engage the AP all the way to the crash site. I can’t remember the specifics, but I’m sure someone here does.
I see the utility in that approach, but isn’t there something inherently dangerous about depending on the AP to sort things out for you? I recall an accident where the crew was trying to engage the AP all the way to the crash site. I can’t remember the specifics, but I’m sure someone here does.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 543
Likes: 339
From: Blue sky
Indeed, if a 737 is not in trim, the pilot is probably applying some kind of force on the yoke and the AP cannot be engaged. Just letting go of the flight controls to engage the AP is not a good idea either, especially when out of trim.
But that's not really a problem affecting the Airbus I would guess.
But that's not really a problem affecting the Airbus I would guess.
Last edited by BraceBrace; 27th September 2024 at 19:22.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 937
Likes: 67
From: USA
I see the utility in that approach, but isn’t there something inherently dangerous about depending on the AP to sort things out for you? I recall an accident where the crew was trying to engage the AP all the way to the crash site. I can’t remember the specifics, but I’m sure someone here does.
02:44:00 FO Autopilot in command sir
02:44:01 CA: Exclamation remark
02:44:02 : Sound of A/P disengage warning
02:44:05 CA: Heading select
02:44:05 MSR227: Straight in approach runway zero four lrft, one zero one, next call full establish Egypt air two two seven
02:44:07 FO: Heading select
02:44:18 CA: See what the aircraft did!
02:44:27 FO: Turning right sir
02:44:30 CA: What?
02:44:31 FO: Aircraft is turning right
02:44:32 CA: AH
02:44:35 CA: Turning right?
02:44:37 CA: How turning right
02:44:41 CA: Ok come out
02:44:41 FO: Over bank
02:44:41 CA: Autopilot
02:44:43 CA: Autopilot
02:44:44 FO: Autopilot in command
02:44:46 CA: Autopilot
02:44:48 FO Over bank, over bank, over bank
02:44:50 CA: OK
02:44:52 FO: Over bank
02:44:53 CA: OK, come out
02:44:56 FO: No autopilot commander
02:44:58 CA: Autopilot
02:44:58 EC1: Retard power, retard power, retard power
02:45:01 CA: Retard power
02:45:02 : Sound similar to overspeed clacker
02:45:04 CA: Come out
02:35:05 FO: No god except...
02:35:05 SV: "whoop" sound similar to ground proximity warning
02:45:06 END OF RECORDING
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 12
Likes: 5
Just a side note:
I've never flown the 737NG. As far as I remember, it was "very challenging" to engage the Autoflight system on the 737 Classic (EFIS) when out of trim...so...
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 180
From: USA
Continuing the off topic topic, I lost my medical 10 years ago so now just fly a 73-8 Sim down at Shoreham, but the great thing about bringing in the automatics, then switching back to manual, is there are times when a student has totally lost the plot, can't get stabilised on approach, can't fly a hold properly. Just push the Auto pilot switch with heading select and let the aircraft sort it out. Watch in wonder the 7000 revolutions of the trim wheel and ask yourself how anyone could get *that* out of trim. Give it a moment or two, switch out the autos and hey presto they are back in control and in perfect trim.