Airbus ALT*
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We all have have likes and dislikes for some procedures, systems but it's safer to follow nevertheless because we are not aware of the complete thought process behind that. Also we may not know someone may have tried it differently with some unpleasant occurrences. Anyway learning never stops.
Both training Captains. WTF ?? I am sorry, but I hope they are both stripped pf their titles and returned to ranks..
I agree with Captain Mongo; The report comment that this guy's poor vision was not a factor is bull****. (We've all hit the wrong button, but not twice in a row) - coupled with him obviously not being able to focus on his PFD or the Engine N1/EPR gauges. This guy was operationally blind and should have been put out to grass
Nor could he even fly manually, FFS !! He was type rated, so he had studied the Airbus, passed exams about the Airbus controls, including auto-thrust, so he knew how it worked. Excuse my invective, but It pisses me off that people like this who can't fly and can't see get the plumb jobs, but mortals like us who do understand Airbus and can fly, don't get a look-in because of the seniority system and office politics.
@ Check Airman
We've all been there. Every day is a learning day.
........as a condition of that certificate was required to wear distance vision correction and have available reading correction. These vision requirements were determined to have not influenced the occurrence. ”
I agree with Captain Mongo; The report comment that this guy's poor vision was not a factor is bull****. (We've all hit the wrong button, but not twice in a row) - coupled with him obviously not being able to focus on his PFD or the Engine N1/EPR gauges. This guy was operationally blind and should have been put out to grass
Nor could he even fly manually, FFS !! He was type rated, so he had studied the Airbus, passed exams about the Airbus controls, including auto-thrust, so he knew how it worked. Excuse my invective, but It pisses me off that people like this who can't fly and can't see get the plumb jobs, but mortals like us who do understand Airbus and can fly, don't get a look-in because of the seniority system and office politics.
@ Check Airman
We've all been there. Every day is a learning day.
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Here is my , flaps 2 selected speed close to loc capture pushed speed managed but , approach fase was not active !
Speed start increase fast , was like a slap in my face , what is doing ? Disconnect a/p call for flap 1 , disconnected a/thr call for flap zero level off
i passed the localizer , atc where shouting at us but we where new in the Airbus and fighting to trying to understand what was the problem , i still remember the 4/5 second of startle I experienced .
Later in bad i felt like an idiot thinking at the event , why I did not just pull for selected speed right after the push ......but you know Airbus is a different dog , sometimes you need to be bitten to learn .
Speed start increase fast , was like a slap in my face , what is doing ? Disconnect a/p call for flap 1 , disconnected a/thr call for flap zero level off
i passed the localizer , atc where shouting at us but we where new in the Airbus and fighting to trying to understand what was the problem , i still remember the 4/5 second of startle I experienced .
Later in bad i felt like an idiot thinking at the event , why I did not just pull for selected speed right after the push ......but you know Airbus is a different dog , sometimes you need to be bitten to learn .
Only half a speed-brake
4 to 5 seconds startle is probably not something you can roll back in Airbus. Up to three perhaps, personal experience from both sides.
Side note, after LOC* the approach phase self-activates.
I was blessed with good instructors on the 737 who trained me properly that an illuminated MCP button means it can be de-actiavated. Whereas what mode actually is active
needs to be checked by constant review of the FMA.
Never had an issue not noticing the managed speed jumping up, because the speed tape was the focus. Mixing up speed / heading / altitude selectors - different story, that takes longer than 3 seconds at times.
For A/THR disconnect, the instinctive way is the easiest. Put the thrust where you need it to, and then click-off. I do understand the setup of the incident flight was far more complex than that.
In my overall opinion, full escape from the automation trap needs more hands-on training than is being done. I am a great fan of slowly decreasing the level of automation instead of an instinctive and mostly premature all-disconnect. Yet when it needs to be done it needs to be done properly. All off, set pitch and power FDs off! Quickly and decisively.
Very often some sort of feature is left engaged by error of either ommision or bright idea. Which backfires by making the situatuon hard to read, process and prioritise.
My last flop was as simple as keeping the FDs on when doing a 90 deg hard avoidance turn having just disconnected the AP for urgency. Just to wait for the PM to select a proper heading target while I banked towards the safe side... error of a bright idea. 😟 The pitch bar with ALT* and A/THR in CLB did the killing.
Side note, after LOC* the approach phase self-activates.
I was blessed with good instructors on the 737 who trained me properly that an illuminated MCP button means it can be de-actiavated. Whereas what mode actually is active
needs to be checked by constant review of the FMA.
Never had an issue not noticing the managed speed jumping up, because the speed tape was the focus. Mixing up speed / heading / altitude selectors - different story, that takes longer than 3 seconds at times.
For A/THR disconnect, the instinctive way is the easiest. Put the thrust where you need it to, and then click-off. I do understand the setup of the incident flight was far more complex than that.
In my overall opinion, full escape from the automation trap needs more hands-on training than is being done. I am a great fan of slowly decreasing the level of automation instead of an instinctive and mostly premature all-disconnect. Yet when it needs to be done it needs to be done properly. All off, set pitch and power FDs off! Quickly and decisively.
Very often some sort of feature is left engaged by error of either ommision or bright idea. Which backfires by making the situatuon hard to read, process and prioritise.
My last flop was as simple as keeping the FDs on when doing a 90 deg hard avoidance turn having just disconnected the AP for urgency. Just to wait for the PM to select a proper heading target while I banked towards the safe side... error of a bright idea. 😟 The pitch bar with ALT* and A/THR in CLB did the killing.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 25th May 2021 at 23:55.
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Actually I was incorrect about the details of the incident. It was even more totally uncalled for. The capt pressed EXPED Instead of APP by mistake passing 3600ft to target altitude of 3000ft. He didn't have to cancel it because ALT* engaged immediately and aircraft had levelled off. End of story. But he didn't check the FMA and tried to push EXPED again to cancel it and again by mistake pressed ATHR causing ATHR to go in THR LK. So? just re engage by pressing ATHR again. Again would have been end of story. Unless he went for AP switch this time. But since he had enough of the FCU, for no reason whatsoever went for the click, click. That was actually the blunder which could have killed everybody.
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As a newbie to Airbus myself, something said to me in the sim still rings true.
“An inexperienced Airbus pilot will say what’s it doing now, whilst an experienced Airbus pilot will say it does that sometimes”
I miss my 747-400!
“An inexperienced Airbus pilot will say what’s it doing now, whilst an experienced Airbus pilot will say it does that sometimes”
I miss my 747-400!
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I also switched to A320 after being a training Captain on B747 classic. This incident is due to ignorance of the pilot, nothing to do with the aircraft. When you fly a new machine you have to know it well to be truly comfortable not the comfort that comes out of ignorance. You read my earlier post. This fellow commits blunders after blunders without any requirement and you bring some strange comment perhaps from guy who also knew very little. China Airline pilot in a 747 dealing with a single engine failure did a complete barol role. So what wise crack would you have for that?
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Side note, after LOC* the approach phase self-activates.
My last flop was as simple as keeping the FDs on when doing a 90 deg hard avoidance turn having just disconnected the AP for urgency. Just to wait for the PM to select a proper heading target while I banked towards the safe side... error of a bright idea. 😟 The pitch bar with ALT* and A/THR in CLB did the killing.
I don’t understand what went wrong in your situation described above.
you disconnect AP and disregard FDs and start banking. if the FMA was on ALT* The A/THR must have been in SPEED mode and not in CLB thrust anymore??
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Side note, after LOC* the approach phase self-activates.
Last edited by vilas; 27th May 2021 at 07:25.
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Very true words Vilas. I describe it as a “curious lack of curiosity.”
Some pilots, when they note the airplane didn’t do something they expected it to do, just shrug their shoulders and move along. Most pilots want to find out why it did something they didn’t expect.
Only half a speed-brake
Assuming vectors, i.e. HDG lateral mode: Clear the unnecessary waypoints with or without using the DCT-TO (rad-in), but continue on HDG. Joining LOC* the FMGS starts looking for the DECEL - again - (already past) and APCH phase gets activated.
When I first heard about it, it did not sound quite right. Background memories of LOC* definitely NOT saving me from no APCH phase.
Only half a speed-brake
Also I learned that night "left" and "right" can actually be indecipherable. Always thought that sometimes they come strangely close by the sound of it, but never believed 3 focused people already aware of a misunderstanding could not figure it out.
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I guess it stays in Take Off Phase until ACC ALT. Anyway A/THR is armed in FLX or TOGA and it engages when thrust levers are moved to the CLB detent. Who does that at 100 ft?
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If I believe the trainer simulator that I just tried, if you do that, you will remain in SRS forever.
The airplane will not accelerate nor will it let you pull speed and choose another one, except if you engage another vertical mode.
Apparently, if you set the altimeter target above your altitude too late, that is after the acceleration altitude, the clb alt blue modes do not engage, you remain in SRS but in one case I simulated I kept SRS alt blue. So when the airplane reached the level I had chosen, the airplane levelled off from SRS to ALT*.
It sounds realistic but that may just be the sim.
The airplane will not accelerate nor will it let you pull speed and choose another one, except if you engage another vertical mode.
Apparently, if you set the altimeter target above your altitude too late, that is after the acceleration altitude, the clb alt blue modes do not engage, you remain in SRS but in one case I simulated I kept SRS alt blue. So when the airplane reached the level I had chosen, the airplane levelled off from SRS to ALT*.
It sounds realistic but that may just be the sim.
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SRS once engaged on takeoff only disengages at acceleration altitude unless you engage another vertical mode. It doesn't seem to react to FCU altitude if below acceleration altitude unless you pull climb or VS.
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Yes. ALT* can not engage below 400 feet RA. I believe you will stay in SRS mode until acceleration altitude then Vertical speed mode until pilot action.
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