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Airbus ALT*

Old 25th May 2021, 04:42
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
Aircraft wasn't doing what he wanted? That's a joke. It exactly did what he asked. If he didn't know how to ask then it's his fault. It's mentioned in his earlier checks that he has a habit to select something in a hurry. Click, click doesn't work unless you know what is happening and what you want to do. A/C is diving, thrust has hit climb, speed is increasing, you don't know what to do with AP. OK slam the thrust closed, knock the AP off and level off.
Sorry. I should've been more clear. It was doing exactly as he asked it to do- just not what he intended it to do. I agree that the initial problem was entirely his fault (pressing EXPD instead of APPR). We've all pushed the wrong button at some point. He had an incident because of what happened after the mistake was realised.

Originally Posted by vilas View Post
But then it wouldn't be called Airbus but perhaps B MAX. Boeing is conventional but still they crashed it in SFO, nobody had any idea what conventional ATHR was doing, another in Dubai go around they had no idea what they needed to do for touch down GA. NTSB, FAA asked Boeing to have look at thrust hold. They will keep looking but aren't going to do anything. Pilot flying has to learn and remember.
Look Airbus is Airbus it's easy but definitely different. Guy who transitions on to it has to learn about it. What ATHR does or doesn't is not a secret it's there in the manual, it's taught. What about the PM why didn't he do something? Perhaps he also had no idea. This is the problem with CRM. Unless copilot is well trained he is not going to overrule the more experienced captain. There was only one problem the capt didn't know how to cancel EXPED, period. Had he pulled any FCU button the flight would have ended without any excitement.
I stand by my comment. No design is perfect. The fact is that disconnecting autothrust is usually a two step process. Boeing, Douglas etc have a system that isn't that broken. Airbus decided to fix it, and it sometimes leads to unnecessary confusion.

As an aside vilas, if you recall, I've long thought reading FMAs aloud was a silly idea- to put it mildly. I was wrong. I've had a come-to-Jesus moment that involved some paperwork. Lesson learned.
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Old 25th May 2021, 06:50
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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We all have have likes and dislikes for some procedures, systems but it's safer to follow nevertheless because we are not aware of the complete thought process behind that. Also we may not know someone may have tried it differently with some unpleasant occurrences. Anyway learning never stops.
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Old 25th May 2021, 11:33
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Both training Captains. WTF ?? I am sorry, but I hope they are both stripped pf their titles and returned to ranks..

........as a condition of that certificate was required to wear distance vision correction and have available reading correction. These vision requirements were determined to have not influenced the occurrence. ”

I agree with Captain Mongo; The report comment that this guy's poor vision was not a factor is bullshit. (We've all hit the wrong button, but not twice in a row) - coupled with him obviously not being able to focus on his PFD or the Engine N1/EPR gauges. This guy was operationally blind and should have been put out to grass

Nor could he even fly manually, FFS !! He was type rated, so he had studied the Airbus, passed exams about the Airbus controls, including auto-thrust, so he knew how it worked. Excuse my invective, but It pisses me off that people like this who can't fly and can't see get the plumb jobs, but mortals like us who do understand Airbus and can fly, don't get a look-in because of the seniority system and office politics.

@ Check Airman We've all been there. Every day is a learning day.
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Old 25th May 2021, 11:45
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Here is my , flaps 2 selected speed close to loc capture pushed speed managed but , approach fase was not active !
Speed start increase fast , was like a slap in my face , what is doing ? Disconnect a/p call for flap 1 , disconnected a/thr call for flap zero level off
i passed the localizer , atc where shouting at us but we where new in the Airbus and fighting to trying to understand what was the problem , i still remember the 4/5 second of startle I experienced .
Later in bad i felt like an idiot thinking at the event , why I did not just pull for selected speed right after the push ......but you know Airbus is a different dog , sometimes you need to be bitten to learn .
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Old 25th May 2021, 12:14
  #65 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
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4 to 5 seconds startle is probably not something you can roll back in Airbus. Up to three perhaps, personal experience from both sides.

Side note, after LOC* the approach phase self-activates.

I was blessed with good instructors on the 737 who trained me properly that an illuminated MCP button means it can be de-actiavated. Whereas what mode actually is active
​​​​ needs to be checked by constant review of the FMA.

Never had an issue not noticing the managed speed jumping up, because the speed tape was the focus. Mixing up speed / heading / altitude selectors - different story, that takes longer than 3 seconds at times.

For A/THR disconnect, the instinctive way is the easiest. Put the thrust where you need it to, and then click-off. I do understand the setup of the incident flight was far more complex than that.

In my overall opinion, full escape from the automation trap needs more hands-on training than is being done. I am a great fan of slowly decreasing the level of automation instead of an instinctive and mostly premature all-disconnect. Yet when it needs to be done it needs to be done properly. All off, set pitch and power FDs off! Quickly and decisively.

Very often some sort of feature is left engaged by error of either ommision or bright idea. Which backfires by making the situatuon hard to read, process and prioritise.

My last flop was as simple as keeping the FDs on when doing a 90 deg hard avoidance turn having just disconnected the AP for urgency. Just to wait for the PM to select a proper heading target while I banked towards the safe side... error of a bright idea. 😟 The pitch bar with ALT* and A/THR in CLB did the killing.

Last edited by FlightDetent; 25th May 2021 at 23:55.
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Old 25th May 2021, 13:21
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Actually I was incorrect about the details of the incident. It was even more totally uncalled for. The capt pressed EXPED Instead of APP by mistake passing 3600ft to target altitude of 3000ft. He didn't have to cancel it because ALT* engaged immediately and aircraft had levelled off. End of story. But he didn't check the FMA and tried to push EXPED again to cancel it and again by mistake pressed ATHR causing ATHR to go in THR LK. So? just re engage by pressing ATHR again. Again would have been end of story. Unless he went for AP switch this time. But since he had enough of the FCU, for no reason whatsoever went for the click, click. That was actually the blunder which could have killed everybody.
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Old 26th May 2021, 16:28
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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As a newbie to Airbus myself, something said to me in the sim still rings true.

“An inexperienced Airbus pilot will say what’s it doing now, whilst an experienced Airbus pilot will say it does that sometimes”

I miss my 747-400!
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Old 26th May 2021, 19:15
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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I also switched to A320 after being a training Captain on B747 classic. This incident is due to ignorance of the pilot, nothing to do with the aircraft. When you fly a new machine you have to know it well to be truly comfortable not the comfort that comes out of ignorance. You read my earlier post. This fellow commits blunders after blunders without any requirement and you bring some strange comment perhaps from guy who also knew very little. China Airline pilot in a 747 dealing with a single engine failure did a complete barol role. So what wise crack would you have for that?
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Old 27th May 2021, 03:55
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post

Side note, after LOC* the approach phase self-activates.

My last flop was as simple as keeping the FDs on when doing a 90 deg hard avoidance turn having just disconnected the AP for urgency. Just to wait for the PM to select a proper heading target while I banked towards the safe side... error of a bright idea. 😟 The pitch bar with ALT* and A/THR in CLB did the killing.
Did not know it will self activate when in Loc*! Thank you for that.
I don’t understand what went wrong in your situation described above.
you disconnect AP and disregard FDs and start banking. if the FMA was on ALT* The A/THR must have been in SPEED mode and not in CLB thrust anymore??
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Old 27th May 2021, 05:40
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Side note, after LOC* the approach phase self-activates.
LOC* doesn't activate APP phase but the overflying the D in NAV mode does it and LOC* is also taken as NAV. If flight plan is not sequenced LOC will be captured without activation of approach phase.

Last edited by vilas; 27th May 2021 at 07:25.
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Old 27th May 2021, 09:33
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
… This incident is due to ignorance of the pilot, nothing to do with the aircraft. When you fly a new machine you have to know it well to be truly comfortable not the comfort that comes out of ignorance. …

Very true words Vilas. I describe it as a “curious lack of curiosity.”

Some pilots, when they note the airplane didn’t do something they expected it to do, just shrug their shoulders and move along. Most pilots want to find out why it did something they didn’t expect.
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Old 27th May 2021, 15:02
  #72 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
LOC* doesn't activate APP phase but the overflying the D in NAV mode does it and LOC* is also taken as NAV. If flight plan is not sequenced LOC will be captured without activation of approach phase.
That sounds like the proper explanation.

Assuming vectors, i.e. HDG lateral mode: Clear the unnecessary waypoints with or without using the DCT-TO (rad-in), but continue on HDG. Joining LOC* the FMGS starts looking for the DECEL - again - (already past) and APCH phase gets activated.

When I first heard about it, it did not sound quite right. Background memories of LOC* definitely NOT saving me from no APCH phase.
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Old 27th May 2021, 15:07
  #73 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
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Originally Posted by pineteam View Post
what went wrong in your situation described above.
you disconnect AP and disregard FDs and start banking. if the FMA was on ALT* The A/THR must have been in SPEED mode and not in CLB thrust anymore??
You're right, I mixed up the description. But it was not the automation failing (it never does) that went wrong, the human side got behind the airplane and missed things. I'm convinced less automation then might have been beneficial. No need to monitor it, no need to follow it, no need to announce it, no need to command adjustments and clarify them with PM, etc. ... you have more time to watch the bank properly...

Also I learned that night "left" and "right" can actually be indecipherable. Always thought that sometimes they come strangely close by the sound of it, but never believed 3 focused people already aware of a misunderstanding could not figure it out.
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