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Landing Flaps request

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Landing Flaps request

Old 15th Feb 2021, 06:58
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Landing Flaps request

On a recent check ride, during the debrief it was mentioned that during the approach, I requested gear down and shortly after Flaps 25, without waiting for three greens to make it. My rationale is that the PNF is aware of the undercarriage status and, therefore, will not command the flaps until it is the proper time to do so. I accepted the criticism and made a mental note, but, to be honest, I don't think this is outright wrong, maybe just not usual (I have been in the exact situation as PNF couple of times).

While checking the books I could not find any reference mentioning that final flaps must be requested only after the undercarriage is down and locked, maybe good airmanship dictates it. Anyway, would like to hear some opinions on the subject.

Last edited by Broomstick Flier; 15th Feb 2021 at 07:13.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 09:14
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I don't fly what seems to be the Boeing you fly, but it seems the instructor was splitting hairs over technique. On the airplanes I've flown, if that was the criticism at the end of the session, it means you did very well.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 09:46
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Normally when PF calls for flaps (or anything really, say gear up after takeoff), they should first check themselves whether the conditions allow for the action to be taken (say speed below Vfe), then call it out (flaps xx), then the PM will check whether conditions allow (speed checked), and then perform the requested action.

In your case, you seem to be relying just on the PM/PNF check, thus eliminating the human redundancy in the process. Now, I don't know what implications would extending flaps before the gear is down on your type are, or what the company policy is, but as a matter of airmanship, I'd agree with the checker.

I will concur though, if that's the only thing they had to say, you've done very well
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 10:01
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did you get the gear horn? If not, smile thru gritted teeth and when capt fartpants dribbles on say, “I’ll take that onboard” and move on with your life.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 10:35
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It’s years since I flew the 737 Classic but, wasn’t the reason you were advised to wait until the gear was down and locked (before selecting flaps) in order to reduce the hydraulic system workload?
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 10:54
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No type mentioned, so I can approach this from 757 perspective. Gear down, Flaps 20 at the same time is normal. Asking for F25 while the LG is still moving is asking for a landing config warning. So that’s an ASR and paperwork that could be avoided by waiting another couple of seconds.

Edited to add. Our part B does indeed put a responsibility on PM to check gear is down before selecting landing flap but why put them in that position?
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 11:44
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Originally Posted by deltahotel View Post
No type mentioned, so I can approach this from 757 perspective. Gear down, Flaps 20 at the same time is normal. Asking for F25 while the LG is still moving is asking for a landing config warning.
Same on a couple of the bigger Boeings - selecting F25 or F30 with gear still travelling, not indicating down, meant it got very noisy....

You wouldn't fail a check ride for doing it accidentally as long as the gear was on the way but you'd get a and it would be a point for the debrief.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 11:53
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PM will check whether conditions allow (speed checked), and then perform the requested action.

Use of the term "Speed Checked" is often used by the PNF when directed by the PF to select various flap settings. Seems a superfluous thing to say each time a new flap setting is called for. After all you don't say "Speed checked" when the landing gear is selected up or down. While it is normal airmanship for the PNF to check the speed but why state the obvious? And the PF doesn't say "Flap 5 Speed checked" etc every time he asks for another flap.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 12:02
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Centaurus, indeed and our part B tells PM to check the speed and respond to the request for Flaps X with ‘Flaps X’ meaning ‘I’ve checked the speed, it’s in limits and I’m now selecting Flaps X’.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 13:30
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Flaps 25 is a takeoff setting on the 737 so the config horn wouldn't sound (provided throttles are above idle).
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 13:48
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Incorrect. See below. Not sure where 20 degrees is. But it’s more than idle.

steady warning​ horn is provided to​ alert the Flight Crew whenever a landing is​ ​
attempted and any gear is not down and locked. The landing​ gear warning horn is ​
activated by forward thrust lever and flap position as follows
....
Flaps 15 through 25 –​
either forward thrust lever set below approximately 20 degrees or an ​
engine not running, and the other thrust lever less than 34 degrees; the ​
landing​ gear warning horn cannot be silenced​ with the landing gear ​
warning HORN CUTOUT switch.
.....

sorry 737 for reference.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 14:00
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It all depends on type and what the manufacturer and operator have specified in the "books".

On a 737CL/NG there is absolutely no need for this "invented" check, I would not even know why there would be a limitation. It is absolutely true there is some "airmanship" that goes beyond procedures, but that airmanship in this case to me only relates to the gear "initiation", meaning: the indication of a correct release of the gear. The gear down sequence takes way too long time to complete and having pilots focus on the gear indicators while flying just seems waste of time. It is much more "safe" to create a gentle idle slowing down while the flaps are extending focusing on correct pitch changes and glide tracking, than asking pilots to increase thrust all of a sudden because one apparently needs to see 3 greens and creating only extra workload. Keep it simple.

For what it's worth, if it was simply a B737, there is a lot more to say about decelerating to correct speeds when asking for flaps to be extended than waiting for 3 greens... And that is a Boeing demand mentioned in the FCTM. The 3 greens requirement is not a Boeing demand.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 15:00
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Originally Posted by Centaurus View Post
Use of the term "Speed Checked" is often used by the PNF when directed by the PF to select various flap settings. Seems a superfluous thing to say each time a new flap setting is called for. After all you don't say "Speed checked" when the landing gear is selected up or down. While it is normal airmanship for the PNF to check the speed but why state the obvious?
I didn't invent the SOP, I just follow it. I believe many other airlines have the same.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 16:10
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The speed checked is simply heritage from old school analog speed indications and a perfect example of how old dinosaurs neglect to evolve and adapt to the fantastic displays right in front of them. How many checks do you need while we are flying the aircraft?

In the same philosophy, a PM is "monitoring" silently and only needs to talk when necessary. Sterile cockpit, because the cockpit talks more and more to you. Keep your eyes open to what that flightdeck is telling you.

Don't worry, it's just me. But aviation needs to learn from mistakes, old deficiencies, grow with new technology and evolve. Again, we are all here to learn to use systems to our own advantage, and that advantage is (1)safety. Keep it simple.

Last edited by BraceBrace; 15th Feb 2021 at 16:31.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 16:23
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The term dynasor is applicable to 737 itself. But you are wrong even latest FBW Air bus the call is same. If everyone starts tinkering with SOPs then you are recreating the dynasor days atmosphere when every captain had his own way of doing things. Line pilots should not be making SOPs but following them.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 19:37
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C mon guys get a grip.

Calling for gear AND flaps is no big deal on the 737.

Gear down, flaps 15. Landing checklist , was SOP in my days, albeit many years ago.

Who on earth taught me that on my 737 course?

Boeing in Seattle.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 21:54
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Our call is Gear down, Flaps 20.
Which means flaps are extending while the gear is still in motion.
74

* just spoke with a 76 buddy and he waits for three green to avoid the warning horn.
Same company.

Last edited by B2N2; 15th Feb 2021 at 22:08.
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Old 15th Feb 2021, 22:13
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Done this on more than one occasion on more than one aircraft type. Does it cause anything other than a feeling that you could have arranged it bit differently to avoid a brief bit of noise, which you immediately knew full well the cause of? No? Whats the problem? Its there to alert you that you may be attempting to land with the gear up, which you are obviously not doing having initiated the lowering of the gear.

If I was the PM, was asked for a landing flap setting and I was on the ball enough to see the gear was still in transit, I might mention this fact and enquire if I should possibly delay the flap for a bit to avoid a temporary aural distraction. Most often, I think Id do it then giggle at the result...

There exists a faction in aviation that tries to make everything as complex and full of unnecessary rules as possible. We must fight back!
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Old 16th Feb 2021, 09:02
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FullWings, re
There exists a faction in aviation that tries to make everything as complex and full of unnecessary rules as possible.’
Yes, as indicated by this thread and other instances involving blind adherence to SOPs.
A critical aspect missing in modern aviation is both knowing when and how to adapt. Instructors hold significant responsibility for discussing adaptation, but they too appear to be bound by rules. In addition to issues of airmanship, so too a lack of common sense and flexibility - or at least a willingness to evaluate the aspect after flight, a balanced debrief.

The threat from this ‘SOP mindedness’ is that it can generate precursor situations for accidents; a false belief that following the rules will provide legal protection, whereas in our very safe industry it is more likely to reduce safety.
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Old 16th Feb 2021, 09:50
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Originally Posted by Gin Jockey View Post
Incorrect. See below. Not sure where 20 degrees is. But its more than idle.

steady warning​ horn is provided to​ alert the Flight Crew whenever a landing is​ ​
attempted and any gear is not down and locked. The landing​ gear warning horn is ​
activated by forward thrust lever and flap position as follows
....
Flaps 15 through 25 ​
either forward thrust lever set below approximately 20 degrees or an ​
engine not running, and the other thrust lever less than 34 degrees; the ​
landing​ gear warning horn cannot be silenced​ with the landing gear ​
warning HORN CUTOUT switch.
.....

sorry 737 for reference.
Thanks for adding some more technical details.
But in context, it's still valid what I wrote. You won't trigger the horn just by going from F15 to F25 with the gear still up.
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