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A common one the flare and looking at the far end

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A common one the flare and looking at the far end

Old 26th Jun 2019, 21:52
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A common one the flare and looking at the far end

Hi all!

I’d like to listen to your huge experience and get some tips for a freshly ATPL cadet on a small C152.
I struggle a bit with my landings. The biggest advice I usually get is to look at the far end of the runway and that “normally” most bad landings are due to unconsciously looking straight in front, instead of the far end of the runway. Well, I notice that it doesn’t really help looking there, and sometimes I start flaring quite high (normally I flare on the high side, never experienced a no flare). Can you give me some tips to avoid this?
best
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 21:55
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When you line up on the runway before takeoff, take a good look at the picture outside. Where do the sides of the runway cut through the canopy? Remember where, and have this picture firmly in your head for next landing. You should flare just before this.

practice practice practice
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 22:21
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Keep your aiming point fixated on the windscreen. When the runway starts widening you should start shifting your vision. Don't look at the end of the runway, look down the runway towards the end, maybe 3/4.

It is necessary to be stable from the beginning of the approach all the way to taxi speed (centerline!).
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 22:42
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Way back when I was a CFI, one thing I would do with a student who was having trouble with landing picture was to perform a landing attitude demo. This is accomplished by adding a little power in the flare and flying down the runway in the landing attitude inches off the ground. If the runway is long enough, you can touch down intermittently (keeping the power in) just to get a feel for where the wheels are. As you get near the end of the runway, apply power and off you go back into the pattern. I would fly one, then have the student fly one. Not recommended with any strong winds. Check with your instructor and see if he/she would be willing to try this.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 23:43
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I learned to fly in a C152. One of my instructors made the penny drop when he said "as you cross the boundary fence at around hangar height, slowly begin to reduce power and raising the nose towards level attitude, then as the power comes all the way off, try to fly the plane to the other end of the runway..." - squeak, squeak.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 06:04
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yoko1 - good stuff. I also had a couple of CFIs teach me to "fly the runway." It certainly helped me "get the picture" and the feel for where the runway was.

Another thing that worked for me in my early GA years was to look straight down the runway, but also use my peripheral vision of the runway sides to judge the start of the flare. But one does have to adjust that when switching between 50m-wide runways, 30m-wide runways, and 9m strips (or "pieces of string" as my significant other calls them). The aircraft's shadow can also be a useful reference for that (when available).

The only other landing tip that always helped me was after the flare was established - to just slowly keep adding back-pressure and let the wing decide when it was ready to quit flying. Usually, that gets me within cms of the surface before settling on.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 06:56
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Wait for the 20’ Rad Alt call and close your eyes!!
Or in a C152 wait until the instructor or pax suddenly and loudly breath in, then close your eyes!!

Seriously, Banana Joe has it correct and the other suggestions are good as well..
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 07:08
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When you look in front of the nose things are moving too fast to make a judgement and at the far end it's static. Somewhere in between the runway moves at a discernible rate. Fix your eyesight there and you will be able toassess the touchdown.

Last edited by vilas; 27th Jun 2019 at 10:04.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 08:44
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Thumbs up

Most options given in reply are valid. But I would like to add the use of Flap 20, provided the runway is long enough.
This gives a smoother transition to the flare and you can adopt and maintain a landing attitude whilst gently removing the power just before T/D.
Smooth, or acceptable, landings ensured EVERY TIME..
This technique is especially useful when operating at night.

When you are used to the pitch attitude and height perception just prior to touchdown, start on the Flap 30
Good luck
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 08:48
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I knew a very well respected training captain who used to do what yoko1 suggests all the way down the runway at Prestwick in a VC10 . He was brilliant at it, and it worked.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 09:23
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Most reason you flare high because you are scared of ground. To make you feel comfortable:
1. below 200 ft, do not chase aiming point any more, fly the stable attitude with a reasonable VS. You will see the flare come in calm
2.flare with a bit of power.

After you can do it well then you fine tune everything to good standard. Good luck.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 09:58
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Originally Posted by yoko1 View Post
Way back when I was a CFI, one thing I would do with a student who was having trouble with landing picture was to perform a landing attitude demo. This is accomplished by adding a little power in the flare and flying down the runway in the landing attitude inches off the ground. If the runway is long enough, you can touch down intermittently (keeping the power in) just to get a feel for where the wheels are. As you get near the end of the runway, apply power and off you go back into the pattern. I would fly one, then have the student fly one. Not recommended with any strong winds. Check with your instructor and see if he/she would be willing to try this.
This was a technique I learnt while having some difficulty landing the DHC-8 in the sim at least. My instructor got me to conduct a normal approach and then got me to "Not Land!" all the way down the runway, inches from touchdown. Worked a treat.

Be a little careful though as you don't want to find yourself running out of runway at the upwind end and still at 2 feet AGL!
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 10:28
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Originally Posted by Bergerie1 View Post
I knew a very well respected training captain who used to do what yoko1 suggests all the way down the runway at Prestwick in a VC10 . He was brilliant at it, and it worked.
Works in a B-707 too! Actually works in just about any aircraft as long as you have enough runway.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 11:49
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If you get access to a full flight sim later in your career, get the box operator to flight freeze position but not altitude over the numbers.

you can practice touchdowns and the landing attitude, plus touchdown sink rate to your hearts content. Helped me greatly transitioning to a big jet.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 12:03
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cadet on a small C152.
Have never flown a big C152 or even a medium C152. But regardless of the size of the C152, if you are experiencing trouble with landing the aircraft, simply ask the instructor to demonstrate a landing. He may need to do that several times and he doesn't necessarily need to patter. Sometimes silence is golden and allows you to concentrate on seeing rather than hearing through a headset. Students can be overwhelmed with gimmicky ideas and when approaching the round-out they can quickly forget who said what and when. It may cost you more money each time the instructor does a demonstration landing but some or later it will all come together. The more you bugger up landings without knowing exactly why, the more you lose confidence.

Half an hour in a desk top simulator of any trainer aircraft type can do wonders to help judge the landing technique and you don't have to waste money on full circuits either. The simulator (flight training device) can be repositioned at 200 feet agl to give repetitive practice at that last 30 seconds of short final.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 12:18
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My simplistic solution in an average sized C172 is: arrive at the right speed and roughly the right height, chop the power, try not to land - ie do whatever is necessary to just hold it off. No more, no less.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 14:45
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The C172 is different to other aircraft because the outside view when flat on the ground is tilted up, this can cause some difficulties on landing.

Thankfully though i never had such difficulties. I always feel that after maybe 1 or 2 goes it should come natural to the pilot and instructors also told me this that everything was going perfectly after maybe 1 attempt.

It requires a good feel for the aircraft, you have to be able to see where the wheels are in your mind during the flare, all by the feel of the plane and a good judgment of the height. If you are not good at this naturally it can be a problem.You have to have good judgment of the speed by which you coming down, be able to move the yolk in response, add some power, take away some power. It is not something you can explain really, i just did it. Good luck
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 16:55
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Thank you all for the great suggestions. I’ll try to apply all, while shifting a bit the sight from the far end of the runway to somewhere around 3/4.
I see that for the “base runway” there are little problems, most of the problems arise with different than used layouts (ie up/downslope, wider)
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 17:40
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Originally Posted by Judd View Post
...Students can be overwhelmed with gimmicky ideas and when approaching the round-out they can quickly forget who said what and when. ...
True that. A bit like getting 10 suggestions on improving one's golf stroke - and ending up tied in a knot trying to do all 10 at once.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 21:26
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Problem: you flare too high every time.
solution: flare lower

it sound too simple but just go for an hour practice and do circuit after circuit after circuit. When you think you should flare just wait a little bit until you hit the sweet spot a few times in a row. Also. Fly the appropriate speed. A lot of GA pilots come over the threshold way too fast ending in deep landings time after time.
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