A common one the flare and looking at the far end
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Italy
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A common one the flare and looking at the far end
Hi all!
I’d like to listen to your huge experience and get some tips for a freshly ATPL cadet on a small C152.
I struggle a bit with my landings. The biggest advice I usually get is to look at the far end of the runway and that “normally” most bad landings are due to unconsciously looking straight in front, instead of the far end of the runway. Well, I notice that it doesn’t really help looking there, and sometimes I start flaring quite high (normally I flare on the high side, never experienced a no flare). Can you give me some tips to avoid this?
best
I’d like to listen to your huge experience and get some tips for a freshly ATPL cadet on a small C152.
I struggle a bit with my landings. The biggest advice I usually get is to look at the far end of the runway and that “normally” most bad landings are due to unconsciously looking straight in front, instead of the far end of the runway. Well, I notice that it doesn’t really help looking there, and sometimes I start flaring quite high (normally I flare on the high side, never experienced a no flare). Can you give me some tips to avoid this?
best
When you line up on the runway before takeoff, take a good look at the picture outside. Where do the sides of the runway cut through the canopy? Remember where, and have this picture firmly in your head for next landing. You should flare just before this.
practice practice practice
practice practice practice
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Amantido
Posts: 866
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keep your aiming point fixated on the windscreen. When the runway starts widening you should start shifting your vision. Don't look at the end of the runway, look down the runway towards the end, maybe 3/4.
It is necessary to be stable from the beginning of the approach all the way to taxi speed (centerline!).
It is necessary to be stable from the beginning of the approach all the way to taxi speed (centerline!).
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow...
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Way back when I was a CFI, one thing I would do with a student who was having trouble with landing picture was to perform a landing attitude demo. This is accomplished by adding a little power in the flare and flying down the runway in the landing attitude inches off the ground. If the runway is long enough, you can touch down intermittently (keeping the power in) just to get a feel for where the wheels are. As you get near the end of the runway, apply power and off you go back into the pattern. I would fly one, then have the student fly one. Not recommended with any strong winds. Check with your instructor and see if he/she would be willing to try this.
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Christchurch
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I learned to fly in a C152. One of my instructors made the penny drop when he said "as you cross the boundary fence at around hangar height, slowly begin to reduce power and raising the nose towards level attitude, then as the power comes all the way off, try to fly the plane to the other end of the runway..." - squeak, squeak.
yoko1 - good stuff. I also had a couple of CFIs teach me to "fly the runway." It certainly helped me "get the picture" and the feel for where the runway was.
Another thing that worked for me in my early GA years was to look straight down the runway, but also use my peripheral vision of the runway sides to judge the start of the flare. But one does have to adjust that when switching between 50m-wide runways, 30m-wide runways, and 9m strips (or "pieces of string" as my significant other calls them). The aircraft's shadow can also be a useful reference for that (when available).
The only other landing tip that always helped me was after the flare was established - to just slowly keep adding back-pressure and let the wing decide when it was ready to quit flying. Usually, that gets me within cms of the surface before settling on.
Another thing that worked for me in my early GA years was to look straight down the runway, but also use my peripheral vision of the runway sides to judge the start of the flare. But one does have to adjust that when switching between 50m-wide runways, 30m-wide runways, and 9m strips (or "pieces of string" as my significant other calls them). The aircraft's shadow can also be a useful reference for that (when available).
The only other landing tip that always helped me was after the flare was established - to just slowly keep adding back-pressure and let the wing decide when it was ready to quit flying. Usually, that gets me within cms of the surface before settling on.
Wait for the 20’ Rad Alt call and close your eyes!!
Or in a C152 wait until the instructor or pax suddenly and loudly breath in, then close your eyes!!
Seriously, Banana Joe has it correct and the other suggestions are good as well..
Or in a C152 wait until the instructor or pax suddenly and loudly breath in, then close your eyes!!
Seriously, Banana Joe has it correct and the other suggestions are good as well..
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 3,406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When you look in front of the nose things are moving too fast to make a judgement and at the far end it's static. Somewhere in between the runway moves at a discernible rate. Fix your eyesight there and you will be able toassess the touchdown.
Last edited by vilas; 27th Jun 2019 at 10:04.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most options given in reply are valid. But I would like to add the use of Flap 20, provided the runway is long enough.
This gives a smoother transition to the flare and you can adopt and maintain a landing attitude whilst gently removing the power just before T/D.
Smooth, or acceptable, landings ensured EVERY TIME..
This technique is especially useful when operating at night.
When you are used to the pitch attitude and height perception just prior to touchdown, start on the Flap 30
Good luck
This gives a smoother transition to the flare and you can adopt and maintain a landing attitude whilst gently removing the power just before T/D.
Smooth, or acceptable, landings ensured EVERY TIME..
This technique is especially useful when operating at night.
When you are used to the pitch attitude and height perception just prior to touchdown, start on the Flap 30
Good luck
I knew a very well respected training captain who used to do what yoko1 suggests all the way down the runway at Prestwick in a VC10 . He was brilliant at it, and it worked.
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most reason you flare high because you are scared of ground. To make you feel comfortable:
1. below 200 ft, do not chase aiming point any more, fly the stable attitude with a reasonable VS. You will see the flare come in calm
2.flare with a bit of power.
After you can do it well then you fine tune everything to good standard. Good luck.
1. below 200 ft, do not chase aiming point any more, fly the stable attitude with a reasonable VS. You will see the flare come in calm
2.flare with a bit of power.
After you can do it well then you fine tune everything to good standard. Good luck.
Way back when I was a CFI, one thing I would do with a student who was having trouble with landing picture was to perform a landing attitude demo. This is accomplished by adding a little power in the flare and flying down the runway in the landing attitude inches off the ground. If the runway is long enough, you can touch down intermittently (keeping the power in) just to get a feel for where the wheels are. As you get near the end of the runway, apply power and off you go back into the pattern. I would fly one, then have the student fly one. Not recommended with any strong winds. Check with your instructor and see if he/she would be willing to try this.
Be a little careful though as you don't want to find yourself running out of runway at the upwind end and still at 2 feet AGL!
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow...
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Works in a B-707 too! Actually works in just about any aircraft as long as you have enough runway.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you get access to a full flight sim later in your career, get the box operator to flight freeze position but not altitude over the numbers.
you can practice touchdowns and the landing attitude, plus touchdown sink rate to your hearts content. Helped me greatly transitioning to a big jet.
you can practice touchdowns and the landing attitude, plus touchdown sink rate to your hearts content. Helped me greatly transitioning to a big jet.
cadet on a small C152.
Half an hour in a desk top simulator of any trainer aircraft type can do wonders to help judge the landing technique and you don't have to waste money on full circuits either. The simulator (flight training device) can be repositioned at 200 feet agl to give repetitive practice at that last 30 seconds of short final.
My simplistic solution in an average sized C172 is: arrive at the right speed and roughly the right height, chop the power, try not to land - ie do whatever is necessary to just hold it off. No more, no less.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: everywhere
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The C172 is different to other aircraft because the outside view when flat on the ground is tilted up, this can cause some difficulties on landing.
Thankfully though i never had such difficulties. I always feel that after maybe 1 or 2 goes it should come natural to the pilot and instructors also told me this that everything was going perfectly after maybe 1 attempt.
It requires a good feel for the aircraft, you have to be able to see where the wheels are in your mind during the flare, all by the feel of the plane and a good judgment of the height. If you are not good at this naturally it can be a problem.You have to have good judgment of the speed by which you coming down, be able to move the yolk in response, add some power, take away some power. It is not something you can explain really, i just did it. Good luck
Thankfully though i never had such difficulties. I always feel that after maybe 1 or 2 goes it should come natural to the pilot and instructors also told me this that everything was going perfectly after maybe 1 attempt.
It requires a good feel for the aircraft, you have to be able to see where the wheels are in your mind during the flare, all by the feel of the plane and a good judgment of the height. If you are not good at this naturally it can be a problem.You have to have good judgment of the speed by which you coming down, be able to move the yolk in response, add some power, take away some power. It is not something you can explain really, i just did it. Good luck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Italy
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you all for the great suggestions. I’ll try to apply all, while shifting a bit the sight from the far end of the runway to somewhere around 3/4.
I see that for the “base runway” there are little problems, most of the problems arise with different than used layouts (ie up/downslope, wider)
I see that for the “base runway” there are little problems, most of the problems arise with different than used layouts (ie up/downslope, wider)
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bonvoy Marriott
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Problem: you flare too high every time.
solution: flare lower
it sound too simple but just go for an hour practice and do circuit after circuit after circuit. When you think you should flare just wait a little bit until you hit the sweet spot a few times in a row. Also. Fly the appropriate speed. A lot of GA pilots come over the threshold way too fast ending in deep landings time after time.
solution: flare lower
it sound too simple but just go for an hour practice and do circuit after circuit after circuit. When you think you should flare just wait a little bit until you hit the sweet spot a few times in a row. Also. Fly the appropriate speed. A lot of GA pilots come over the threshold way too fast ending in deep landings time after time.